Dual Spec - It's a must! (NOT ACs)

[Agenteusa]

Right, so following your example as you layed it out. The situation at the moment is groups of friends are being split up because they didn't choose the right AC to be able to join in with their other friends.

 

Exactly.

 

 

"/w Crap Bob We need a healer, you got a heal spec? Wanna join?"

 

This is the situation lots of people are complaining about right now. That they wait several hours to get a group.

 

If you want my honest opinion, I don´t give a crap about it. BW can implement what they want it´s not going to interfere with my gameplay and I also know that games are driven the largest community of players (in TOR case less skilled players by quite a large margin imo).

 

If you give players dual specs, good players will start acting arrogant and leave pugs like i mentioned (or else start kicking bad players from groups), then bad players complaint they can´t complete content, then comes the difficulty nerfs (and the game is already easy), then comes the complains about the game getting too easy... You know where I´m heading right?

 

Or you want me to keep going?

 

I don´t have anything against less skilled players, but I know they are also needed in the game so I´m thinking about ways of not ruining the community.

 

And plus, if they decide to implement it there´s no reason not to implement other stuff (custom UI, Recount, DBM) and I prefer not turning this game into an easier mdoe than it is already.

 

I don´t have anything against Dual-Speccs tbh but I think they will ruin this game along with other mods. You´ll basically end up with a "well-known game I won´t mention" community imo.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Agenteusa

[ferroz]

You are forgetting the RPG part in MMORPG. You build your character from the start, you have a choice on what you become so choose well. you have the choice to respecc for low amounts for limited times.

 

Decide what you want to play, really.

 

So if you support dual speccs why are you against class changes?

One has storyline changes, the other doesn't

 

I know from experience that better players tend to become jerks to less skilled players when they´re allowed to have multiple specs and quite frankly it screws even more the social problems MMO´s already have. (I know this since I include myself in that group, sometimes I´m a jerk too).

Hey, just because you're a jerk doesn't mean that the majority, or even a small minority are jerks.

 

So don´t say it will benefit everyone as this is not true.

It benefits the people who will use it and doesn't harm the people who don't Edited February 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Agenteusa]

One has storyline changes, the other doesn't

 

And who the hell gives a damn about story at this point anyway after rolling 2-3 chars??

Mechanics wise it´s the same ****, it´s a tree change.

 

Hey, just because you're a jerk doesn't mean that the majority, or even a small minority are jerks.

 

Everyone´s a jerk at some point while playing mmo´s. And the better players tendentially have a greater chance of losing their patience wit bad groups. I didn´t mention anything about majorities or any population percentage did I?

 

If you were never a jerk while playing mmo´s then kudos to you.

 

It benefits the people who will use it and doesn't harm the people who don't

 

Ofc it hurts the people who don´t use it, I explained why it does above.

 

It affects mechanics to a point that if it indeed implemented you will have to use it or be left out.

 

Care to give an explanation or your take on why it doesn´t hurt them?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Agenteusa

[Tolil]

Exactly.

 

 

 

 

This is the situation lots of people are complaining about right now. That they wait several hours to get a group.

 

If you want my honest opinion, I don´t give a crap about it. BW can implement what they want it´s not going to interfere with my gameplay and I also know that games are driven the largest community of players (in TOR case less skilled players by quite a large margin imo).

 

If you give players dual specs, good players will start acting arrogant and leave pugs like i mentioned (or else start kicking bad players from groups), then bad players complaint they can´t complete content, then comes the difficulty nerfs (and the game is already easy), then comes the complains about the game getting too easy... You know where I´m heading right?

 

Or you want me to keep going?

 

I don´t have anything against less skilled players, but I know they are also needed in the game so I´m thinking about ways of not ruining the community.

 

And plus, if they decide to implement it there´s no reason not to implement other stuff (custom UI, Recount, DBM) and I prefer not turning this game into an easier mdoe than it is already.

 

I don´t have anything against Dual-Speccs tbh but I think they will ruin this game along with other mods. You´ll basically end up with a "well-known game I won´t mention" community imo.

 

Couple points in your post that I'd like to raise.

 

1. You seem to agree that duel spec is needed "This is the situation lots of people are complaining about right now. That they wait several hours to get a group."

 

2. You seem to have something against "bad players". Unless you're employing them to play the game and paying them a wage to meet a certain standard then the fact that they might be bad has no bearing on wether or not duel specs will make them any worse or better. You meet people that are bad at things all the time in everyday life - most of the time once you find out they are bad at something you either don't ask them to do it again or you teach them.

 

3. Duel specs =/= DPS meters, UI mods or fluffy bears that hug you every 5 minutes and tell you how much XP you have to get until your next ding.

 

4. You then go on to make astounding predictions about the furure of the game based on what would happen if duel specs were implimented, ranging from people becoming jerks to the downfall of the entire game. That's quite impressive.

[Tolil]

And who the hell gives a damn about story at this point anyway after rolling 2-3 chars??

Mechanics wise it´s the same ****, it´s a tree change.

I do actually. There you go again making wild assumptions based on your on opinion.

[Nucairion]

Exactly.

 

 

 

 

 

And plus, if they decide to implement it there´s no reason not to implement other stuff (custom UI, Recount, DBM) and I prefer not turning this game into an easier mdoe than it is already.

 

adding ui customizitatiobn i would understand but the minute they added things like recount/DBM and other wow like mods the game will be no different than wow, full of people with big ego's that think there better than everone else coz they do x amount of dps and so on. u are right at this game is not that diffiult accept perhaps for hard mode and nightmare mode ops.

 

adding this kind of mods which not only open up the game to chinease farmers and credit sellers but also the use of bots and even more hacks. hacks have been a problem in game so have bots from wot i have read which is slowly getting fixed but once that door opens up with stupid mods like recount then the floodgates will open ad alot of people will be using things to give them unfair advantages.

 

while i dislike the use of dual spec, im not 100% against it, but it can turn some people to start acting like they no better or that there best at 2 rolls in a game no1 better than them and so on. a pug group comes up some1 not donig well theyll kick him from group saying he can do better.

 

but as many people have said YOU DONT have to use it. it will be implemented no matter wot u think but dont like it dont use it, if u want to have a second spec to make urself more flexibnle in a roll then use it. i probs wont use it but when its added i may well have to

[Agenteusa]

1. You seem to agree that duel spec is needed "This is the situation lots of people are complaining about right now. That they wait several hours to get a group."

 

I don´t agree or disagree like I said since it won´t make much difference on my gameplay experience. I do however worry that it will turn this game into the other game mentioned so many times here. BW can implement LFD tool. It´s fine by me provided it´s not x-server.

 

2. You seem to have something against "bad players". Unless you're employing them to play the game and paying them a wage to meet a certain standard then the fact that they might be bad has no bearing on wether or not duel specs will make them any worse or better. You meet people that are bad at things all the time in everyday life - most of the time once you find out they are bad at something you either don't ask them to do it again or you teach them.

 

I don´t have anything against bad players. I just feel they will have harder times if dual specs are implemented that´s all. I´m going to mention one more time I don´t even pug.

 

Yh, right, I guess you will teach every bad player you come across. Further explanation in point 4.

 

4. You then go on to make astounding predictions about the furure of the game based on what would happen if duel specs were implimented, ranging from people becoming jerks to the downfall of the entire game. That's quite impressive.

 

I´m not making assumptions , i´m just stating this happened before in other mmo´s so why would this one be any different?

 

Nor did I say anything about the game coming to a closure at any point. So if you´re a troll stop trolling. If you´re not a troll please stop accusing me of assuming stuff since you are the one that´s writing false statements and I don´t want to derail this thread.

 

What I said (and it´s not hollow assumptions but based on my 7+ years of playing mmo´s).

 

It´s no secret that some/all of these tools ruined some mmo´s communities. Do you disagree?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Agenteusa

[Agenteusa]

but as many people have said YOU DONT have to use it.

 

You have a view similar to mine I think on some of the tools implementations but this point is something I don´t agree on.

 

You can opt to not use it, but if it´s still there the effects will be felt imo.

[Tolil]

It´s no secret that some/all of these tools ruined some mmo´s communities. Do you disagree?

 

Of course I disagree. If I didn't then I would certainly be guilty of trolling.

You keep trying to lump duel specs in with everything else that you feel made "that other game" worse. This is your opinion, not based on fact.

I too have been playing MMOs for more years than I have fingers. Duel specs and UI mods didn't ruin the community of "that other game", that community was terrible to begin with - that's the trouble with a mass market - vocal idiots will always shout louder than everyone else.

 

Now, in MY opinion - all the MMOs I've played long enough to be able to form a solid opinion that also have some form of game mechanic that lets you have multiple skill point specs has been enhanced by it. Therefore I see no reason why it wont work here.

 

Yh, right, I guess you will teach every bad player you come across.

Where did I say that? You accuse me of making false statements in the same post.

[Agenteusa]

If you don´t think it ruined it, that´s exactly the point where we disagree. I mean you have your opinion, I have mine. Fair enough.

 

that community was terrible to begin with

 

And yes I am entitled to see things and evaluate them based on my opinion.

 

didn´t you just do the same when you wrote the community was terrible to begin with?

 

Nothing wrong with having your opinion provided you don´t create 1000+ threads to enforce it.

 

most of the time once you find out they are bad at something you either don't ask them to do it again or you teach them.

 

I think it speaks for itself. I just sarcastically asked if you were going to teach them all, since telling them to not do it again quite probably won´t work.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Agenteusa

[Tolil]

I think it speaks for itself. I just sarcastically asked if you were going to teach them all, since telling them to not do it again quite probably won´t work.

 

In my normal day to day life, 9 times out of 10 yes. Normally is work related where I'm paid to do that kind of thing anyway.

In game? Depends. There are plenty of people that we - as a guild - have helped out and they turned out to be good people how just needed a poke in the right direction. Other that I/we haven't helped based on their attitude or whatever and added to our ignore lists.

 

Dealing with people wether good or bad isn't a reason to reject a game mechanic.

 

And FYI - like you I rarely PUG aswell, normally I group with friends and we'll pick up an extra to fill a spot if we're short.

[Vinzenzo]

im also crying for it since beta.

 

but get ignored.

 

it's a real must.

[Carousel_t]

I'd like to see this implemented. Come on, servers are almost empty most of the time (everyone's on Ilum or are playing warzones), it's hard enough to find any party at all, and to find a party that actualy needs you? Very unlikely.

 

Lord Calypho player here.

 

Reason behind this: if a player will want to respec, why bother him with his precious time with zoning, when you can easly implement an option to just switch specs?

 

Look at happy customers playing Rift..

 

You've made it possible to customize orange items with ctrl+right click, therefore customization stations are useless (btw. why won't you remove them?), why not make it possible to switch specs?

 

Once a day? Pay for respec? That's stupid, why restrict players to play how YOU want it? If this game is really about chosing what you want to do, make them chose for themselves.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Carousel_t

[ferroz]

that's fine all I'm saying is that I'd rather take a healer into my OPS group who wants to heal not one who just does it when he feels like doing it.

So... do that.

 

You're not actually making an argument against dual spec here.

 

you shouldn't have to change your spec more than once a day at the most.

No, if you do a flashpoint as a tank, and then pvp as a dps, and then another flashpoint as a tank, and then ops as a dps (since there's less ops tank spots than flashpoint tank spots)

 

it's really easy to see why people would do that more than once

[Moricthian]

People are still against duel spec? Why don't they just not use it? What's the point in arguing against it?

[ferroz]

And plus, if they decide to implement it there´s no reason not to implement other stuff (custom UI, Recount, DBM) and I prefer not turning this game into an easier mdoe than it is already.

This is called a slippery slope fallacy.

 

TLDR: it's an invalid argument.

 

adding this kind of mods which not only open up the game to chinease farmers and credit sellers but also the use of bots and even more hacks. hacks have been a problem in game so have bots from wot i have read which is slowly getting fixed but once that door opens up with stupid mods like recount then the floodgates will open ad alot of people will be using things to give them unfair advantages.

Mods do not allow hacks. They don't make hacks easier.

 

the farmers already have bots going. The cheaters already have hacks going. Adding dual spec does not, in any way, increase the number of bots and cheaters.

[ferroz]

People are still against duel spec? Why don't they just not use it? What's the point in arguing against it?

People are busybodies? It's about the only thing i can think of.

 

The people against this = Mrs Grundy.

Edited February 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Nurvus]

Enigma, I sympathize, but this leads to the problem where certain players are "forced" to respec while others aren't.

 

If 10 players are Arsenal Mercenaries, it's for a reason.

They don't wanna heal, they wanna be Arsenal Mercenaries.

 

If 3 of those are forced to go healer, they're not necessarily going to enjoy it.

 

Saying "if you don't like it just don't use it" doesn't work, precicely because a raid leader would enforce who respecs and who doesn't.

 

Alot of players would just go PvE & PvP spec (like me) - what then? You'd want Tri Spec?

 

Furthermore, it would shaft Snipers, Marauders, etc, because those are the only ones unable to respec to a different "role", creating an unfair advantage for those that can respec.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Nurvus

[ferroz]

Enigma, I sympathize, but this leads to the problem where certain players are "forced" to respec while others aren't.

No, noone's every FORCED to respec.

 

If 10 players are Arsenal Mercenaries, it's for a reason.

They don't wanna heal, they wanna be Arsenal Mercenaries.

 

If 3 of those are forced to go healer, they're not necessarily going to enjoy it.

They're not forced to... they choose to because it's better than the alternative.

 

If they're not going to enjoy it, they aren't making very good choices, are they?

 

Saying "if you don't like it just don't use it" doesn't work, precicely because a raid leader would enforce who respecs and who doesn't.

I pugged extensivly in wow, and never saw someone forced to respec.

 

I saw people who were asked to respec. I've been in raids that didn't have enough healers, and I was asked If I had a heal spec (I was a shaman) ... and I didn't, since I'm elemental/elemental.

 

I've seen people who were told "sorry, we're full on X role, but if you have a spec for Y role, you can join us" ... but that's not being forced to respec. That's having the option to raid with someone even though they don't have a spot for your main spec. Without dual spec you wouldn't be able to raid with them, and with dual spec, that option is still open to you, IF YOU CHOOSE TO RESPEC.

 

So, if you actually do run into one of these quasi-mythical raid leaders, you can just join a guild or pug with one of the thousands of reasonable ones.

 

Alot of players would just go PvE & PvP spec (like me) - what then? You'd want Tri Spec?

I'm fine if you want 3 or more specs.

 

FYI: A lot is 2 words.

 

Furthermore, it would shaft Snipers, Marauders, etc, because those are the only ones unable to respec to a different "role", creating an unfair advantage for those that can respec.

They can still respec to a different damage spec; they can have a pvp and a raid spec, or a soloing and a raid spec. Edited February 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Surakis]

One has storyline changes, the other doesn't

 

Not for AC changes it doesn't.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Surakis

[Surakis]

No, noone's every FORCED to respec.

 

You do see the irony of arguing that dual specs are needed in game and at the same time saying those who don't want to see them should simply avoid using them, right?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Surakis

[CygnisJunior]

You get 5 stars good sir

[Tolil]

I still don't see any compelling case not to introduce a duel spec system.

 

Sure there's a lot of subjective reasoning as to why it's a bad idea - other MMOs felt worse afterwards, players will get left out, some classes will be affected differently than others...

 

The simple fact remains that a duel spec system would let everyone have just that - a 2nd spec. Whether that lets you take on a DPS role aswell as a healing role, or lets you change from a mobile DPS role to a stationary DPS role, the fact is it's still allows you to set your skill points out in a differnt way.

 

Whilst I can understand some of the points against it, 99% of them are based on opinion. With nearyly every major (and minor?) MMO on the market today having some sort of duel spec system, I'd wager that statistics would not back these arguements. Games don't suddenly fall apart, people will always find a way into groups - even if they are terrible and people that role pure DPS classes are normally happy to be able to have the 2nd spec to tinker with new setups and min/max the way they want.

 

It's just offereing another option to cater for a different playstyle. "You want to heal and DPS? Roll an alt!" Does not offer as much flexablity as, "You want to heal and DPS? Roll an alt, or use your 2nd spec!"

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tolil

[MajikMyst]

I still don't see any compelling case to introduce a duel spec system.

 

There.. Fixed that for you..

 

Dual spec is easy mode.. Yes easy mode.. The only reason to add it is to make things easier and more convenient.. There is no actual reason to add it..

 

People won't be forced into playing specs they don't want to play.. I have a sage, but don't like healing.. Why should I be forced to make a healer if I want to do OPS?? Dual speccing lowers the quality of players in the game.. Then Bioware will have to nerf the operations because people whine about not being able to do them.. Just like WOW had to do after it allowed dual speccing.. There a ton of reasons not to allow dual speccing..

 

But you are right.. No compelling reason to introduce dual speccing..

Edited February 6, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Uben]

 

They can still respec to a different damage spec; they can have a pvp and a raid spec, or a soloing and a raid spec.

 

So are you saying that a dual spec that let a healer ONLY change between healer specs would be okay?

 

How about a tank can only use it to change tank specs? You know.. for pve and pvp specs of course.

 

 

Would this fill the area they are looking to fill with dual specs? or are these people asking for separate role changes and would NOT be happy to dual spec in the same roles? If the latter is the case then the DPS only classes would have to have changes to their skill trees to grant the SAME use as others would get by taking such a step.