Gwal Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) If you want serious competative player verses player combat there is a whole sector of the gaming world catering for you the FPS world. If you want a tactical player verses player then try Starcraft etc. If you want to grind or exploit to a point where you have a serious advantage that has no relation to skill or tactics then beat everyone else on merit of the fact you have "+100 win stat" then the recent wave of PvP geared MMO's is for you. PvE'ers should not be excluded from having a chance in PvP and PvP'ers should not be stopped from raiding because they only have PvP gear. People wouldn't bother grinding Illum if it didn't make such a difference. Now these things don't have to be the same but they should be equal. (a PvE could get slightly more willpower/ammo offset by less critical/damage than a PvP'er) I know we have a 50 bracket now and this has improved the WZ's for both the lower level and the higher levels. Not getting roflstomped by 50's is great for lowbies, not ending up with teammates that don't understand the objectives(through lack of experience) is great for 50's. People are not zerging Illum for fun, they are doing it because they are rewarded for it. PvP gear / Expertise is staying so here is how to make a better system of it Redistribute expertise progression For a start the expertise stat should be more evenly distributed across levels, there is no reason why a fully pvp geared level 40 should not have up to 80% of the expertise a level geared level 50 has, a level 40 currently has around 1-10%. This would make the end game expertise bonuses less dramatic and if done from the beginning brackets would not have even been needed. This would also make PvP about fun and amusement than grinding for a future advantage in pvp. Balance PvE and PvP gear Put some, but not as much expertise rating on PvE gear, PvE'ers don't need as much expertise but the current state leaves them afraid to try it, or put off by getting "roflstomped" when they do first try. They are not going to be expecting to win everything but they deserve a chance, which they currently don't get. And this applies vice versa to raiding, people shouldn't be forced to stop using their PvP armour if they want to experience the end game PvE content. The bottom line Everyone should be able to get to the same place in the game, it should be the way they do it that differs. Not an either or situation. Edited January 19, 2012 by Gwal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Bumping to give this thread a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedn Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 problem with your theory is that typically in past MMO's what ends up happening, is that players are forced into PVE content, specifically raiding style content to compete. So people who raid end up with a huge advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaxAttack Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 This idea follows every mmo like the plague and it's horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karcyon Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I agree 100%! This is also the reason I quit all MMOs a few weeks after hitting max level. But MMO devs don't think that way. They try do draaag out 'end game' as much as possible, to the point when it becomes just tedious. Look at Rift and the PvP gear. There are like 8 tiers now. You need to grind out at least 6 tiers to become remotely competitive in PvP with your Level 50 toon. Edited January 19, 2012 by karcyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razot Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Just dump expertise and either add a PVE stat to pve gear for NPC's with same stats as pvp gear or just balance the two.. Makes PVE harder makes PVP more competitive and open to more players... Screw WZ's i am all about open world PVP and expertise just does to PVErs now is what WoW's raid gear screw up did to PVPers. Its ironic and sad , in a few months PVP will be dead. Edited January 19, 2012 by Razot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staysa Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Slow down scaling and you fix the problem. Gear scaled way to damn fast in WoW, resilience didn't really change this. *remembers T6 warglaive rogues in PvP dominating with 21 resilience* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veala Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 problem with your theory is that typically in past MMO's what ends up happening, is that players are forced into PVE content, specifically raiding style content to compete. So people who raid end up with a huge advantage. By "past MMO's" you mean vanilla WoW because Blizzard screwed up and made raid gear easier to get than pvp gear. DAoC is arguably the best pvp MMO ever made, and it didn't have a separate gear progression between the two. Unfortunately Expertise-like stats aren't going anywhere, because it creates a second gear progression ladder for players to climb. Why would companies get rid of it when it creates twice as much stuff to do for players that want to pvp and pve? The longer they keep people playing the more money they get after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 By "past MMO's" you mean vanilla WoW because Blizzard screwed up and made raid gear easier to get than pvp gear. DAoC is arguably the best pvp MMO ever made, and it didn't have a separate gear progression between the two. Unfortunately Expertise-like stats aren't going anywhere, because it creates a second gear progression ladder for players to climb. Why would companies get rid of it when it creates twice as much stuff to do for players that want to pvp and pve? The longer they keep people playing the more money they get after all. I agree these stats are not going away. But I don't think they are stopping players from going away. It just adds an extra week or so of grinding for the hardcore players, then what? Nothing to keep them going. Content is consumed, stats are gained then the game is over just after a few days longer. It's gameplay developers need to master not progression. While I can upgrade my weapons slightly in some FPS games, that's never been the reason to jump on them, it's all about the "lolz" or the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I agree these stats are not going away. But I don't think they are stopping players from going away. It just adds an extra week or so of grinding for the hardcore players, then what? Nothing to keep them going. Content is consumed, stats are gained then the game is over just after a few days longer. It's gameplay developers need to master not progression. While I can upgrade my weapons slightly in some FPS games, that's never been the reason to jump on them, it's all about the "lolz" or the fun. Exactly. If running out of progression drives someone away then they are leaving sooner or later. If you're one of the people that values gameplay over progression then the only thing that's going to make you leave is progression's affect on gameplay. I understand how appealing it must be for a developer to chase the WoW market, but man I wish someone would make a quality MMO for people like me. Just one, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 This idea follows every mmo like the plague and it's horrible. This is the cure, it's PvP geared MMO's apart from WoW that always die fastest. WoW is an exception to many rules, not the rule. Name a PvP geared MMO that's lasted longer than 3 years and is not WoW? I remember seeing AoC lose a lot of its players when they added PvP gear. It was best before the gem era from a pvpers point of view because people were pvp'ing for fun, rather than trying to form factions and outnumber then outgear their enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDBAHL Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 problem with your theory is that typically in past MMO's what ends up happening, is that players are forced into PVE content, specifically raiding style content to compete. So people who raid end up with a huge advantage. The horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwal Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 The horror. He obviously didn't read the OP where I said top raiding and pvp gear should be balanced and be good for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessabeans Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I concur, I've seen someone compare pvp to a game of chess before. Except in MMOs where pvp gear is given, basically each time you win a game of 'chess' you are given an extra queen to replace one of your pawns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idockdudes Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ive always been under the impression that PvP stats on PvP gear are only used in games that cater more to PvE. The reason for this being people that PvE dont want someone to have the same level of gear that they do through PvP(which only takes time). The side effect is that PvP gear becomes better for PvP. I think the only way to actually solve this would be to remove the PvP stat, but make the top end PvP gear actually take an accomplishment to get. I think the fact that no one really knows how to make PvP gear take the same type of accomplishment that PvE gear takes is why you see the different types of gear in their current forms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannicus Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Ive always been under the impression that PvP stats on PvP gear are only used in games that cater more to PvE. The reason for this being people that PvE dont want someone to have the same level of gear that they do through PvP(which only takes time). Emphasis mine. Raids take time, too. They take time to get the guild geared, just as i takes time to gear yourself in PVP. Drop expertise, normalize stats across the board, and everything is great. I shouldn't NEED to start with Tier 0 PvE if I'm in Tier 3 PvP just cuz i want to do some raiding, and likewise I shouldn't be getting dominated by someone in PvP just cuz they have PVP gear on and I'm wearing my Tier 3 raid stuff. Get rid of expertise and things suddenly will start to balance themselves. There should be advantages PVP gear has in PVP over PvE gear and vice versa, and this should mostly lay in set bonuses and the abundance of certain stats (PvP might have more surge, PvE might have more accuracy, just as an example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Good advice to bioware. Having the percentages between pvp gear so dramatic is probably a big reason issues exist. My other comment is just let crafters make the identical sets. If you want to make that cost significant credits to gather the resources fine. Just give players a way to be gear competitive in both models. Hey you grinded HM flashpoints. Congrats. I made a bunch of credits and bought mine. hey I pvp'd for my gear. Either way, it should be 3 paths to the same objective. Max level, max stat gear. PvE, Money, PvP. All lead to the same thing end game pvp and pve content that is balanced. Only problem is that bioware want to give the 1%'s something special. Focus on the majorities issues. You know the people keeping the lights on and the bills paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrandMike Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Putting expertise on pve gear that already has better stats. Right. Why these "suggestions" never go both ways other than making pve gear even better than it is. Here is another suggestion: put expertise on pve gear and make stats on pvp gear same level as pve gear. Edited January 19, 2012 by GrandMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaderin Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 problem with your theory is that typically in past MMO's what ends up happening, is that players are forced into PVE content, specifically raiding style content to compete. So people who raid end up with a huge advantage. Which is why if there is any specific pvp gear then you make it exactly like (or comparable in quality) to the pve gear. The gap between pve and pvp is an artificial disparity created by the developers. It doesn't need to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryptorchid Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Putting expertise on pve gear that already has better stats. Right. Why these "suggestions" never go both ways other than making pve gear even better than it is. Here is another suggestion: put expertise on pve gear and make stats on pvp gear same as pve gear. Why is it so hard to read these days? The OP said the gear would be balanced between PvP and PvE, thus, PvE gear would not have more stats than PvP gear. Instead it would have different set bonuses and a possible shift in stats from one to the other. Example: PvE Gear might have +100 Aim +100 Endurance +75 Accuracy +25 Crit +10 Expertise And PvP Gear might have +100 Aim +100 Enduarnce +50 Crit +50 Surge +30 Expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebyrn Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Bumping to give this thread a chance. Lol, good threads often get buried on page 5 in the first 10 minutes. It was a good read and I agree pretty much with everything you said. Edited January 19, 2012 by Treebyrn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes, I approve of the message of this thread. Most of all I approve of the message to get rid of a dedicated PvP stat. If anything (and I truly believe this is the way to go) the difference in PvP-gear as opposed to PvE gear should be that PvP and PvP have differences in gameplay, and this would result in different stat-needs. Just like it has been suggested in this thread. I also approve of the question, which non-WoW MMORPG with a dedicated PvP stat has thrived and survived? Never thought of it that way, but a good question it is. And it is a good perspective, seeing WoW as the exception to several rules, and therefore should not be used as the mould for everything in MMORPGs. Yes, there is plenty good in WoW, but the reason it is big is complex, and the PvP stat is probably not the most important factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why is it so hard to read these days? The OP said the gear would be balanced between PvP and PvE, thus, PvE gear would not have more stats than PvP gear. Instead it would have different set bonuses and a possible shift in stats from one to the other. Example: PvE Gear might have +100 Aim +100 Endurance +75 Accuracy +25 Crit +10 Expertise And PvP Gear might have +100 Aim +100 Enduarnce +50 Crit +50 Surge +30 Expertise Yes. This is a good suggestion! However, why not go all the way and remove Expertise? PvE: +100 Aim +100 Endurance +80 Accuracy +35 Crit PvP: +100 Aim +100 Endurance +65 Crit +65 Surge I know it seems difficult to imagine BioWare removing expertise. But let us aim high! The results might be better than if we aim low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krylaancelo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Just dump expertise and either add a PVE stat to pve gear for NPC's with same stats as pvp gear or just balance the two.. Makes PVE harder makes PVP more competitive and open to more players... Screw WZ's i am all about open world PVP and expertise just does to PVErs now is what WoW's raid gear screw up did to PVPers. Its ironic and sad , in a few months PVP will be dead. What? A PvE stat on PvE gear and then the EXACT same stats as PvP gear? What the hell would be the point of PvP gear then? It would have absolutely no advantage over PvE gear and have a disadvantage in PvE. It would obviously be a less worthwhile way of playing to advance. That is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. Why does a PvP stat exist? Because you're fighting other players. If you dedicate time to PvP, you get gear that lets you excel in PvP. PvE gear should never be better or just as good as PvP gear in PvP. Period. Why doesn't the other exist (a PvE stat)? Because PvE AI controlled enemies don't care and don't grind many days of play time to getting gear to be better at PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sol_ Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 The best pvp experience I had in an MMO was vanilla WoW, I stopped PvPing after the PvP stat came out, don't even remember the name of it and I played through to Cataclysm haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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