Why WoWs and SWTORs PvP cannot succeed

[wintersnight]

People work hard to get BIS gear for their environment. Nobody should just be able to walk into the end-game RAID/PVP and be on equal footing with someone who has taken the time to perfect both their gear and their skills.

 

Our culture thrives on success and accomplishment. We admire success and people want to be admired.

 

That's why in life, we admire people like Warren Buffet who build their empire and dislike people like Mitt Rommey who had it given to him.

 

That's why in video games, we admire people who have attain "The End" gear through hard work, and dislike people who "bought gold" to acquire the gear.

 

Video game makers have done a lot of research on what keeps people in a video game (and their subscriptions going) and they have found that the Carrot approach is best. If their research showed that putting everyone in on an equal footing and keeping them there was the best approach to make the most money, they would have.

 

Making everyone equal is a Marxist argument that would never work in our culture.

[Fairell]

Pvp rewards that are solely aesthetic wont keep enough people wanting to pvp.

 

jesus christ. i forecast the next mmo to give epics for farting in right direction with this way of thinking.

 

you successfully typed in your passwod and managed to log in - here is your epic breasplate

you walked 100 meters - here is your tier 345.5 helmet

you managed to find the quest area without GPS - here is your top tier weapon.

you praised developers on the forums - here is a unique mount

 

 

rethink what PVP actually is. you do it cause you want to fight challenging opponents instead of monsters.

linking it to the same gear progression as pve reduces it to just another form of PVE. instead of rushing heroics cause you overgear them by miles, you rush new players.

 

equalised gear in pvp would require such idiots like you to actually fight and use tactics and skill to win, instead of popping trinkets and consumables and pressing 1234

[Broom]

Back when they were 1million people ? you mean when the mmo were Everquest, everquest 2, dark age of camelot and star wars galaxies ? well i rest my case.

 

 

You failed to even dent my statement, try again

 

Uhm, yes I did. Your list of 'successful' gear progression MMO contains several MMO which failed very badly within a year after launch, like AOC, Warhammer and to an extent EQ2, though that game fell less hard than the other two. The ones I mentioned, SWG and COH, both lasted for years AND did well without a gear progression system.

 

And you might have noticed how very badly the mega-gear-grind Asian games do that try to launch in the US and Europe. Lineage? Aion? Need I say more?

 

So yeah, some people may like this gear progression stuff. And I think a fair amount of us simply don't care for it. Whether or not MOST players like gear progression is a claim you simply cannot make, however.

[Aega]

PvP needs to have a stat-cap placed on your character when your flagged. This will solve the huge imbalances.

 

Make PvP about real competition. Games need to stop giving advantages for time/money investment. Keep it about skill, teamwork.

 

I've read all the arguments here supporting this format or that one. ANY mmo out there shined so long as gear did not create a huge imbalance. DAoC, WoW, SWG, Warhammer are the few I have experiences with mostly.

 

Before the angry child replies come in, yes there are gear imbalances in those games in one form or another. Which is why early game pvp was better and why lower level pvp brackets continued to be where true competition could be found.

 

There was either low level bracket pvp or addicts who played endgame pvp. Then you had the filth who couldn't accept a level playing field and invaded the lower level brackets and "twinks" were born. Some games prevented this to some extent (DAoC). But even then, buffbots were created.

 

Again: put a stat-cap in place and move on with it. Or once you hit a zone/warzone equalize everyone's stats and let fun competitive pvp begin.

 

Anyone could play and everyone would have the opportunity to win. Skill would rule the day. Add in different rewards to let those who have to stand out do so. Mounts, gear skins, titles, pets, etc.

[Broom]

People work hard to get BIS gear for their environment. Nobody should just be able to walk into the end-game RAID/PVP and be on equal footing with someone who has taken the time to perfect both their gear and their skills.

 

Our culture thrives on success and accomplishment. We admire success and people want to be admired.

 

That's why in life, we admire people like Warren Buffet who build their empire and dislike people like Mitt Rommey who had it given to him.

 

That's why in video games, we admire people who have attain "The End" gear through hard work, and dislike people who "bought gold" to acquire the gear.

 

Video game makers have done a lot of research on what keeps people in a video game (and their subscriptions going) and they have found that the Carrot approach is best. If their research showed that putting everyone in on an equal footing and keeping them there was the best approach to make the most money, they would have.

 

Making everyone equal is a Marxist argument that would never work in our culture.

 

Speak for yourself, mate, it works perfectly fine in MY culture.

[dadamowsky]

People work hard to get BIS gear for their environment. Nobody should just be able to walk into the end-game RAID/PVP and be on equal footing with someone who has taken the time to perfect both their gear and their skills.

 

Our culture thrives on success and accomplishment. We admire success and people want to be admired.

 

That's why in life, we admire people like Warren Buffet who build their empire and dislike people like Mitt Rommey who had it given to him.

 

That's why in video games, we admire people who have attain "The End" gear through hard work, and dislike people who "bought gold" to acquire the gear.

 

Video game makers have done a lot of research on what keeps people in a video game (and their subscriptions going) and they have found that the Carrot approach is best. If their research showed that putting everyone in on an equal footing and keeping them there was the best approach to make the most money, they would have.

 

Making everyone equal is a Marxist argument that would never work in our culture.

 

"The End" gear with equal PvP stats wouldn't be less "The End" . Pride which you're describing is about others to see it, about how many diamonds this watch has at the hand's tip not how many tons you can hang on it's strap.

Edited January 19, 2012 by dadamowsky

[Fairell]

People work hard to get BIS gear for their environment. Nobody should just be able to walk into the end-game RAID/PVP and be on equal footing with someone who has taken the time to perfect both their gear and their skills.

 

Our culture thrives on success and accomplishment. We admire success and people want to be admired.

 

That's why in life, we admire people like Warren Buffet who build their empire and dislike people like Mitt Rommey who had it given to him.

 

That's why in video games, we admire people who have attain "The End" gear through hard work, and dislike people who "bought gold" to acquire the gear.

 

Video game makers have done a lot of research on what keeps people in a video game (and their subscriptions going) and they have found that the Carrot approach is best. If their research showed that putting everyone in on an equal footing and keeping them there was the best approach to make the most money, they would have.

 

Making everyone equal is a Marxist argument that would never work in our culture

 

 

some people really need some reading comprehension. pvp gear stat advantage ruins all incentives to roll another toon or pvp for people who didnt get that much time. you can have all the gear and perks you want, but it doesnt have to make you a god compared to newer players. if you are that good, you will beat them with equal gear anyway. if not you dont deserve it

[TheOfficialGOAT]

Disagree with everyone one of your points here. You are crying over gear that takes literally no time to get. Anyone that has PvP gear has not worked for it and that goes for myself. PvP in this game is a joke to get not sure why people are complaining about it.

 

It is possible to hit 50 and the same day have every piece of the tier 2 gear... Enough said.

[ComeAndSee]

WoW and SWTOR PvP feels much different. The big difference being no dispels, silences, disarms, resource drains, healing debuffs, chain stuns (stunlock), and long lasting spammable CC's. Also, interrupts aren't Godly and its hard to run out of resources for a lot of classes.

 

It really makes a noticeable difference when you take those out in the game play. Every class feels like it's throttled to a certain point. No class "hard counters" another. "roflpwn" burst damage was nerfed. Warzones are also more 3 dimensional than what you had on WoW.

 

I guess you can say its balanced. I like it a lot.

[protoflorian]

I've made over a thousand bucks via PvPing in WoW and I'm not a sponsor-grade player. Not too sure how you claim that WoW's PVP wasn't successful given that WoW is the first MMO to develop an eSport and an eSport community.

[TheOfficialGOAT]

Uhm, yes I did. Your list of 'successful' gear progression MMO contains several MMO which failed very badly within a year after launch, like AOC, Warhammer and to an extent EQ2, though that game fell less hard than the other two. The ones I mentioned, SWG and COH, both lasted for years AND did well without a gear progression system.

 

And you might have noticed how very badly the mega-gear-grind Asian games do that try to launch in the US and Europe. Lineage? Aion? Need I say more?

 

So yeah, some people may like this gear progression stuff. And I think a fair amount of us simply don't care for it. Whether or not MOST players like gear progression is a claim you simply cannot make, however.

 

Although the grind in Aion for gear was hard it was worth it, people didn't complain or want it to be reduced. People were actually there to PvP and have fun. Everything in Aion was a grind to be honest it was x15 times harder than this game and is an insult to even compare the two.

 

If people from this game were made to play Aion for a bit then come back they would realize just how easy this game actually is.

[dadamowsky]

You are crying over gear that takes literally no time to get.

Funny thing how often players complain how hard it is to beat RGN... share the wisdom, I'm sure they'd be grateful to the very serious extent. Apart from this, it's nice when you use arguments like 1+1=2 and others replies with their opinion on the "2" aesthetics.

[ComeAndSee]

I've made over a thousand bucks via PvPing in WoW and I'm not a sponsor-grade player. Not too sure how you claim that WoW's PVP wasn't successful given that WoW is the first MMO to develop an eSport and an eSport community.

 

WoW is what brought eSport to MMOs because of how much money is invested in it. Blizzard has to pay these companies to sponsor their games, but makes their money back by broadcasting them.

[GameNirvana]

I've said this to BW since I joined this forum 2 years ago. PvP isn't about having better gear and thus beating the opponent. It's not about putting more time into PvP for gear and thus deserving better gear.

 

We play against each other because we are harder to kill than stupid, predictable computers. Thus, you don't deserve to beat another guy just because you've played so much that your gear is better than his. Instead, those who put SOOOO MUCH time into PvP should be way better than most at playing their class. Ppl don't understand that they need to put time into getting better at PvP, not PvP gear. Thus, we have *********** WoW.

 

This PvP will always be just as subpar as WoW's in my opinion, mostly due to gear score.

 

If people want to show off gear and its insane stats, make it PvE. Tiered Gear doesn't belong in PvP.

 

Just look at the success of COD. People enjoy going up against other millions of time per day not b/c if they play more they'll get better gear. No, they play to get better, and they get better at PvP simply by practice with their "character" or in this case the controls and the maps.

 

DAoC did it right too. Everyone played, and they were competitive or not competitive based upon their skill level with their character and maps.

 

Good luck getting BW to realize this. They are too concerned with stealing WoW's players to be profitable. From what I can tell so far, this game is just far better with PvE, and it's identical in most ways to WoW's PvP. We're gonna have to wait for a diff game to really focus on PvP.

[Fairell]

Disagree with everyone one of your points here. You are crying over gear that takes literally no time to get. Anyone that has PvP gear has not worked for it and that goes for myself. PvP in this game is a joke to get not sure why people are complaining about it.

 

It is possible to hit 50 and the same day have every piece of the tier 2 gear... Enough said.

 

im not complaining. i am fully geared myself. and no, it is NOT possible to to have full set the same day.

[TheOfficialGOAT]

WoW and SWTOR PvP feels much different. The big difference being no dispels, silences, disarms, resource drains, healing debuffs, chain stuns (stunlock), and long lasting spammable CC's. Also, interrupts aren't Godly and its hard to run out of resources for a lot of classes.

 

It really makes a noticeable difference when you take those out in the game play. Every class feels like it's throttled to a certain point. No class "hard counters" another. "roflpwn" burst damage was nerfed. Warzones are also more 3 dimensional than what you had on WoW.

 

I guess you can say its balanced. I like it a lot.

 

There are healing debuffs (PvP Trauma and a Sentinel skill), chain stuns, long lasting CC's, resources are easy to run out of (that's not bad management on my part either considering I have to auto attack to build focus = no damage/GCD), and the interrupts are pretty good.

 

Of course this is coming from a Sentinel point of view but I know I have all of these things except for the long lasting CC's which I know I'm in most of the time.

[Fairell]

I've made over a thousand bucks via PvPing in WoW and I'm not a sponsor-grade player. Not too sure how you claim that WoW's PVP wasn't successful given that WoW is the first MMO to develop an eSport and an eSport community.

 

i dont know how an intelligent person can call WoWs pvp competitive.

[Aega]

Disagree with everyone one of your points here. You are crying over gear that takes literally no time to get. Anyone that has PvP gear has not worked for it and that goes for myself. PvP in this game is a joke to get not sure why people are complaining about it.

 

It is possible to hit 50 and the same day have every piece of the tier 2 gear... Enough said.

 

Your crying. I have dry eyes right now. Your points of debate are not even a debate:

1. Gear takes 0 time to get.

2. Noone worked for their PvP gear.

3. PvP in this game is a joke.

 

None of these tired comments refutes why they shouldn't switch to a skill-based system that rewards players with items that do not lend a statistical advantage in PVP.

 

By your logic, if pvp gear takes no time to get, no one has worked for their gear and PVP in this game is a joke, WHY THEN are you even here arguing with people asking for a change to skill-based competition?

 

Your own words only support what your apparently "disagreeing" with. If you can't see this, we've reached an impasse.

[TheOfficialGOAT]

Funny thing how often players complain how hard it is to beat RGN... share the wisdom, I'm sure they'd be grateful to the very serious extent. Apart from this, it's nice when you use arguments like 1+1=2 and others replies with their opinion on the "2" aesthetics.

 

Well when someone likes to argue about the aesthetics of the "2" they obviously could care less of the issue at hand and just want to argue about issues that are pointless.

 

There is no solution to the RNG, Bioware should of never did this. PvP gear is no longer worked for only looted which gives some people the best gear and others nothing. I agree the system is trash and needs to be changed but that isn't what the argument was over. With that being said the BM bags are fixed now where this doesn't cause any issues.

 

Back on topic of the RNG, you can get gear with or without RNG. Get the tier 1 gear it isn't nearly as good but if you can play your class you can still beat people (this is the issue that most people are running into because they haven't learned their class and the others enough yet and are getting rolled). I bought almost every piece of the tier 1 before getting 90% of the tier 2 set. That is from moderate amount of playing time a week. I get my dailies done everyday and maybe a champion bag from the vender every other day. If you don't get the tier 2 gear like you want buy the tier 1. So yes the gear takes literally no time to get. People have the tier 3 gear not even a month after release and you are telling me gear is hard to get... Seriously think about that and you are arguing with me about this. Hitting max level on a game the second day of release and max gear not even a month after release makes me think something is wrong here. Heck if life was this easy we would all be billionaires but at that point it would mean nothing.

 

Also I have started decking my companions out in PvP gear some tier 1 and others tier 2...

[Fairell]

WoW and SWTOR PvP feels much different. The big difference being no dispels, silences, disarms, resource drains, healing debuffs, chain stuns (stunlock), and long lasting spammable CC's. Also, interrupts aren't Godly and its hard to run out of resources for a lot of classes.

 

It really makes a noticeable difference when you take those out in the game play. Every class feels like it's throttled to a certain point. No class "hard counters" another. "roflpwn" burst damage was nerfed. Warzones are also more 3 dimensional than what you had on WoW.

 

I guess you can say its balanced. I like it a lot.

 

 

there are no silences, disarms and resource drains, the latter wouldnt even work since 80% of classes utilise an energy based system.

 

there are dispels. very powerful dispels. powerful to the point where having commando and sage healer in your team renders pyrotechs and madness sorcs, basically everything thats not direct damage, useless.

 

remember warlocks crying about dots being dispelled faster than they could reapply them? it is the same story in swtor. even better dispells remove 3 different conditions with trivial costs. but somehow people didnt realize it yet

[TheOfficialGOAT]

im not complaining. i am fully geared myself. and no, it is NOT possible to to have full set the same day.

 

Alright you say its not possible to have the full set the same day you hit 50. Yes it is and I will show you how. I agree it is very unlikely and the statistics/RNG are against you but it is possible.

 

Hit 50 with 1000/1000 and already one champion bag purchased. That's 6 bags. Do your new dailies/weeklies that's 8 bags.

 

So you get a total of 14 bags for the day and you need 14 pieces of gear (counting relics and two weapons). You have 14 bags and if you are lucky you gut the full set. So yes it is possible just very unlikely.

[Fairell]

Alright you say its not possible to have the full set the same day you hit 50. Yes it is and I will show you how. I agree it is very unlikely and the statistics/RNG are against you but it is possible.

 

Hit 50 with 1000/1000 and already one champion bag purchased. That's 6 bags. Do your new dailies/weeklies that's 8 bags.

 

So you get a total of 14 bags for the day and you need 14 pieces of gear (counting relics and two weapons). You have 14 bags and if you are lucky you gut the full set. So yes it is possible just very unlikely.

 

it is more probable that you win a lottery. 10% for a gear token to be there and x for the right peace. i have seen peeps with rank 21 wearing full set bar one peace, but that was before they nerfed the drop rates

[Vesad]

Um, then I'm just pvping for fun.

 

Weird that, doing something for fun in a game...

 

But seriously, pvp gear isn't a problem for me, don't like the pvp stat though, SWG was my fav pvp and that had no pvp stat, that's probably why I enjoyed it so much...

 

As for people saying then raid gear will own pvp gear, not if you put them both on a par, then the guy who knows more about their class and ways to counter the opponents class will win...

 

P.S. I'm only missing something like 3 pieces of Champion gear, so this isn't me whining because I don't have pvp gear.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Vesad

[Vesad]

The "magic stat" is obtainable by everyone I have no idea why everyone is complaining. Be lucky that there isn't some sort of rating system yet where you need a certain rating to get pieces of gear. Then you guys would really cry. God forbid people have to earn something in an mmo.

 

2 reasons, Pvp should be based on what little skill MMO's require, therefore a hardcore pvper wants to beat people because they're good, not because they have better gear...

 

A second reason, what happens a few months down the line when most of us now (the ones that don't quit anyway) are in full battlemaster gear? Fresh 50's will get destroyed, and probably get discouraged from pvping...

[asetylene]

jesus christ. i forecast the next mmo to give epics for farting in right direction with this way of thinking.

 

you successfully typed in your passwod and managed to log in - here is your epic breasplate

you walked 100 meters - here is your tier 345.5 helmet

you managed to find the quest area without GPS - here is your top tier weapon.

you praised developers on the forums - here is a unique mount

 

 

rethink what PVP actually is. you do it cause you want to fight challenging opponents instead of monsters.

linking it to the same gear progression as pve reduces it to just another form of PVE. instead of rushing heroics cause you overgear them by miles, you rush new players.

 

equalised gear in pvp would require such idiots like you to actually fight and use tactics and skill to win, instead of popping trinkets and consumables and pressing 1234

 

Somebodys really got their panties in a bind.

Rage all you want bro, the only place you might get what you want is in a private server.

 

Without some form of progressing your character as a reward, the majority of players wont pvp any more often than they do a space mission post 50.

 

Yeah, the hardcore pvpers are going to blow up the fresh 50s until they get some gear of their own. Then when people are all geared up and gettign bored the next teir of rewards comes out and everyone works toward that. The cycle continues till the next expansion comes out, raises the level cap and suddenly everyone is on level playing field again.

 

It's definitely is a flawed system, but its also the only one anyone has come up with so far that can keep such a large amount of people consistantly pvping.