Sith warrior story fail, Malavai Quinn

[gibmachine]

Oh yes for my two playthroughs I went "rawr smash" the first time and then went into careful consideration the 2nd time

 

 

I COULD kill Grathan's son like a good drone (and did the first time). Or I could secure a valuable ally in his son.

 

I COULD kill Nomen Karr, or I could show the Jedi Order how one of their greatest is, in essence, little different from the Sith.

 

I COULD break Jaesa and put up with her wrist cutting tendences. Or I could make her think she's winning and retain her services without hearing about how pain turns her on

 

I COULD kill Master Timmns, or I could get him to brutally murder a defenseless prisoner and send him back to the Jedi Order a lesser man.

 

 

The beauty of the SW storyline, unlike most other storylines, is that you had that option, the one which appeared dark or goody two shoes at first glance, but, upon deeper reflection, was anything but.

 

OT but I actually posted a thread about it (no answers unfortunately but I say to myself that simply people were posting often at the time and it fell down )

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=205286

 

That said

 

To be honest, that might have been the case if it wasn't for his smug tone before the fight or that he doesn't explain himself afterwards. I mean anyone who put up such a poor show has a lot of explaining to do . Rather he appears genuinely dumbstruck at how his lame-assed trap couldn't do what a wondering elite patrol has more likelihood of doing.

 

Have to second that. When you bring Jaesa with you, she even says that she can't feel anything else but confidence in Quinn's soul so this "assassination attempt" is as sincere as it can get.

 

Man, I really hope that with more companions being added and companions stories being expanded, subject of Quinn will be touched and allow us the option to conclude the deal and find ourselves another healer.

[Lexandar]

I didn't know that about Jaesa, but then I viewed her as a disappointingly half assed written character. Which is a pity as she could've been fleshed out to be a really interesting character.

[Kabjat]

OP you should really put all of your first post in SPOILER brackets.

 

Also, I just don't get player's need and obsession to kill, maim, and/or humiliate their companions. I play sith, and I don't believe a 'true sith' is required to be bloody-minded all the time to BE sith.

 

Like a previous poster said, sometimes seeing the value of resources and showing RESTRAINT demonstrates more power. Just my opinion.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kabjat

[Kabjat]

*Facepalm... again*

 

Alright let's put it -this- way.

 

The Sith who kills every single person, even if they are valuable, for no reason... isn't going to be a popular Sith. Isn't going to be a Sith who lasts long.

 

An intelligent Sith builds up two types of power: individual power and group power.

 

Individual power is the obvious one; to be a Sith you need physical and mental strength to be a threat on a personal basis. You have to be able to think, to rationalize, strategize and to back up these with either strength of arm or strength of Force (being strong in both is optimal). If you cannot do these, or lack the ability to do so by allowing your emotions to get to you then you become weaker (Palpatine during his triumphant moment against Luke, blind to Vader's betrayal).

 

You -need- individual power to succeed at first and just pass the trials to become the Apprentice to a Sith Lord. You also need to further develop this power in all aspects to link directly to the second power.

 

Group power; it sounds cliche but nearly all powerful Sith have a power base that they build from. You'll have allies in the Imperial Military, in the Republic, etc. (Darth Baras is a fantastic example). A Sith should have this built up as a fall back, they need ways to outsmart their enemies, to basically have strategies that go out beyond just smashing your way through enemy forces. A Sith, once they have this power base built, should also know when to eliminate those in their power base as well.

 

For example in the SW storyline, Baras is forced to eliminate a chunk of his power base because of Jaesa's powers. His spies are now compromised and need to be removed. This is generally the ideal moment you eliminate those working beneath you, when they can no longer serve your purposes fully.

 

With Quinn, he still has purposes to serve. We can see through the quests with him featuring that he has skills that outdo Pierce, who is himself Black Ops, which means elite of the military.

 

Quinn is a(n): Excellent tactician, medic, pilot, and tech (programmer, designer, computers, what have you). He's basically a one-man military staff. It really makes him invaluable at this point to the Warrior who, even though he is the Emperor's Wrath, will undoubtedly face forces in the future that will require him to fallback on Quinn's expertise.

 

Now why did Quinn betray us? Baras called in the favor Quinn owed him. Through Baras' protection Quinn had remained on Balmorra and away from superiors who hated him. Baras wanted Quinn to take us out, and Quinn's loyalty ultimately brought about his betrayal.

 

Now, if anyone had read the codex entry on Quinn, they'd know that he is duty-bound and honorable. Darth Baras, as said earlier, was instrumental in Quinn's early successes. Our warrior would know how duty-bound and loyal Quinn was by just listening to the guy speak whenever they were in front of Baras.

 

So Bioware taking out the option to kill him is basically Bioware saying 'You're Sith is smarter than you'. It's not meant to be an insult, it's just a fact. Even if we ignored it for the most part, our character would know that Quinn was a creature of Baras due mostly to the fact Baras helped him so much.

 

Our character would also know that Quinn still has uses, uses which still make him irreplaceable at this point.

 

In closing, to give an example of this idea, I'll draw attention to Palpatine once more.

 

Palpatine saw uses for Dooku, up until the point he knew he had Anakin in his power which is when he had his Apprentice killed. With Anakin he kept him around as an Apprentice once more until the point he found Luke.

 

It isn't out of care or feeling that our characters keep Quinn around (unless ya married him I guess... or genuinely like the guy), but it's out of his usefulness. Once our characters get to the point where they: Find someone like Quinn, find someone better than Quinn or no longer need someone like Quinn, then story-wise, Quinn would be killed for his betrayal.

 

I'd let Pierce do it.

 

Last point, this is just to make it more simplified.

 

If you were in a war and had access to a mine filled with valuable resources, then one day found enemy miners inside taking the resources. Would you really blow up the mine, cutting off some nice minerals and etc. for you just to not allow your enemy to have it? Or would you watch the mine more closely to make sure your enemy doesn't get to it?

 

 

I totally get what you are saying. Too bad others on the thread don't xD It seems to be an epidemic in-game: people who play sith automatically think you have to always be bloody minded and 'evil' to be true sith. I think that idea is wrong.

[DarkestDaemon]

Have to second that. When you bring Jaesa with you, she even says that she can't feel anything else but confidence in Quinn's soul so this "assassination attempt" is as sincere as it can get.

 

Man, I really hope that with more companions being added and companions stories being expanded, subject of Quinn will be touched and allow us the option to conclude the deal and find ourselves another healer.

 

Since I forgot about that part, I'll concede that Quinn wasn't as smart as he needed to be . Still gonna be damn hard to find a replacement for him... but when I do, like I said, gonna let Pierce have his fun with soldier-boy.

 

I totally get what you are saying. Too bad others on the thread don't xD It seems to be an epidemic in-game: people who play sith automatically think you have to always be bloody minded and 'evil' to be true sith. I think that idea is wrong.

 

The main reason behind it is simple, really. On a general basis, humanity cares about life. The life of living things, etc. The Sith operate on a different mentality, but one that is in itself an immutable law of nature: survival of the fittest. At it's crudest level, the Sith Code is basically saying 'the strong survive and the weak die off'.

 

Of course people will misinterpret this into believing the philosophy is fundamentally evil or something. Not to mention many Sith aren't quite content in letting the weak just die off naturally... they want to hurry the process! But those Sith aren't the ones in ultimate power... and the Dark Council from the few times you encounter them seems to be rather... conservative.

 

Basically they aren't killing every person for the tiniest error!

[Lexandar]

I'd love to replace Quinn and request that Talos Drellik get a transfer from Darth Nox to my Warrior

[Phyreblade]

Have to second that. When you bring Jaesa with you, she even says that she can't feel anything else but confidence in Quinn's soul so this "assassination attempt" is as sincere as it can get.

 

Confidence in what, though? I always wonder how "real" Quinn's betrayal was, as he's perfectly aware of the SW's capabilities by that point. Is it possible he's so confident in the SW's ability to overcome this attempt, that it's actually little more than a show for Baras. A way for him to tell his own conscience, "See, I did as Baras bid and now owe him nothing," even knowing all along it would never work.

 

He actually picked droids, to boot. Not real people, so no one to be mowed down and slaughtered. Just a bunch of droids that the SW would just wipe up.

 

Just me, thinking, here.

[gibmachine]

I didn't know that about Jaesa, but then I viewed her as a disappointingly half assed written character. Which is a pity as she could've been fleshed out to be a really interesting character.

 

Frankly I love my chaotic evil Jaesa (I'm kinda sociopath when I think about it) but my gripe with her character is that when making her light or dark, it goes to absolute extreme. If she ends up light - she's still a Jedi but in disguise (playing the role of dark apprentice). If she ends up dark - she's Joker (Nolan's version). I think it would benefit her greatly if devs allowed her to be actual dark apprentice but without such obnoxious taste for blood. Again, LS Jaesa could be that grey character I've been looking forward in my SW. However currently, when going LS, we actually get Jedi character (if we look at Jaesa convo) with Jedi apprentice.

 

And it blows.

 

But I digress.

 

Confidence in what, though? I always wonder how "real" Quinn's betrayal was, as he's perfectly aware of the SW's capabilities by that point. Is it possible he's so confident in the SW's ability to overcome this attempt, that it's actually little more than a show for Baras. A way for him to tell his own conscience, "See, I did as Baras bid and now owe him nothing," even knowing all along it would never work.

 

He actually picked droids, to boot. Not real people, so no one to be mowed down and slaughtered. Just a bunch of droids that the SW would just wipe up.

 

Just me, thinking, here.

 

Well i think he went with droids because you can't program people (and obviously he wanted to keep the betrayal rather quiet, hence no batallion or something, even though that would prove way more effective). When we meet him on Balmorra, he says he values accuracy and careful calculation so I guess droids suit him better.

 

About confidence, I really believe he was actually confident that the droids are up to the task. He reaches out to Jaesa so that she joins Baras and she laughs at him, despite sensing nothing other than confidence in his soul. Can't imagine him being confident in any other thing given the circumstances

Edited January 23, 2012 by gibmachine

[apantoliani]

Quinn's a normal. I can kill him whenever I choose (since we're using RP rational). The ship droid will spend a week chipping his remains from my Fury's windshield wipers. Not all that worried about it.

 

Easily replacing him with another of his caliber (healer, plus all the other crap he says he can do) is not as easy. I'm a practical girl. Having killed Baras and foiled Quinn once, how is he going to try it again? When he isn't useful anymore, then would be a good time to get rid of him, and I'll have no problem doing it because like the OP's thread says, he betrayed me. It's not like I didn't expect it, because I've read his Codex entry. Quinn's codex entry says he's loyal to Baras. Hmmm. He's never going to get reassigned. If he did, I'd just off him then. He's practically stuck with me until I decide otherwise.

 

I was a Sith Apprentice to an uppity Darth. Someday I was going to kill my Master because that's how Sith roll. Baras made the first attempt, but he failed because he's a lazy scrub that sent someone else to do his dirty work.

 

I'm a Sith. I deal with betrayal, don't care. I've come to expect it from everyone, especially the people that live on my boat. I figure Jaesa is next, personally. Maybe Pierce. Jaesa would make a lot of sense even because I'm her master. I'd almost encourage her to do it, if you know, her master wasn't me. If they think they can kill me, go for it. Pierce is a lot less useful, I'd kill him in a hot minute. Jaesa too actually. I think I used her power for my benefit exactly once. That's an actual RP rational to justify killing her, because if she escapes my clutches, she could do all sorts of Sith things to screw with me when I make a spy network someday.

 

I laugh at the people who are surprised by being betrayed after running around killing so many people, particularly other Sith. We're a bunch of force-using team-killers. Is anyone honestly surprised at anything that goes down?

 

(All that said, I'd be okay with the lot of you easily duped butt hurt 'Sith' warriors with killing him, I'm just saying I didn't and that was why. I didn't know they removed the ability to from beta until I saw these posts. Lmao. )

[DarkestDaemon]

Quinn's a normal. I can kill him whenever I choose (since we're using RP rational). The ship droid will spend a week chipping his remains from my Fury's windshield wipers. Not all that worried about it.

 

Easily replacing him with another of his caliber (healer, plus all the other crap he says he can do) is not as easy. I'm a practical girl. Having killed Baras and foiled Quinn once, how is he going to try it again? When he isn't useful anymore, then would be a good time to get rid of him, and I'll have no problem doing it because like the OP's thread says, he betrayed me. It's not like I didn't expect it, because I've read his Codex entry. Quinn's codex entry says he's loyal to Baras. Hmmm. He's never going to get reassigned. If he did, I'd just off him then. He's practically stuck with me until I decide otherwise.

 

I was a Sith Apprentice to an uppity Darth. Someday I was going to kill my Master because that's how Sith roll. Baras made the first attempt, but he failed because he's a lazy scrub that sent someone else to do his dirty work.

 

I'm a Sith. I deal with betrayal, don't care. I've come to expect it from everyone, especially the people that live on my boat. I figure Jaesa is next, personally. Maybe Pierce. Jaesa would make a lot of sense even because I'm her master. I'd almost encourage her to do it, if you know, her master wasn't me. If they think they can kill me, go for it. Pierce is a lot less useful, I'd kill him in a hot minute. Jaesa too actually. I think I used her power for my benefit exactly once. That's an actual RP rational to justify killing her, because if she escapes my clutches, she could do all sorts of Sith things to screw with me when I make a spy network someday.

 

I laugh at the people who are surprised by being betrayed after running around killing so many people, particularly other Sith. We're a bunch of force-using team-killers. Is anyone honestly surprised at anything that goes down?

 

(All that said, I'd be okay with the lot of you easily duped butt hurt 'Sith' warriors with killing him, I'm just saying I didn't and that was why. I didn't know they removed the ability to from beta until I saw these posts. Lmao. )

 

Just my take on both Pierce and Jaesa, I don't imagine either will betray you.

 

Jaesa, at least in romancing her and maybe gaining her affection, lets you know she will never betray you. While this could be a simple bit of deception, I like to believe that she won't. Your character essentially saved her, even if you corrupt her to the Dark side. Before she was too busy living by the expectations of everyone else and not her own expectations and desires.

 

Pierce pretty much respects strength and intelligence. Something your character has in spades. He also doesn't give two ***** about authority figures who haven't really proven themselves or don't have an offer that could top -working for the man directly beneath the Emperor-. I'm sure if even a Dark Council member told Pierce to off you're guy he'd just laugh and laugh and laugh.

[Lexandar]

I figure Jaesa is next, personally.

 

Assuming she doesn't cut too deep when self harming.

 

Betrayal can be expected but, frankly, most of our companions are idiots.

 

Pearce - Hey, I'm going to storm this fortification on my own with my squad (Taris). Riiiight, cool plan bro. Is reckless idiocy a common trait on Taris? Or have you been spending too much time with Thana?

 

Quinn - Covered extensively. I wish it were the case that he intentionally screwed up the betrayal but, his VA+script, Jaesa's insight and the fact that he does it when called out by the Emperor's Voice means that he more likely than not screwed it up.

 

Jaesa - Jaesa we'd like a word. No, no this is a word between friends. We're all friends here. We're all talking to you because we love you. No it's not an intervention. Ok well maybe it is. Just put down the razor... just put it down. We can't bare to watch you destroy yourself like this.

 

Vette - no examples spring to mind immediately. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

Broonmark - He's a self avowed idiot. He hits stuff and enjoys it. Makes me wonder if he hasn't been spending too much time with Jaesa.

 

One of the only companions who's consistently intelligent is probably... the droid. Our closetted mechanical friend.

 

(As you can probably imagine I played Ultima a lot which instilled a general contempt for the intellect of my RPG companions)

Edited January 25, 2012 by Lexandar

[gibmachine]

Assuming she doesn't cut too deep when self harming.

 

Betrayal can be expected but, frankly, most of our companions are idiots.

 

Pearce - Hey, I'm going to storm this fortification on my own with my squad (Taris). Riiiight, cool plan bro. Is reckless idiocy a common trait on Taris? Or have you been spending too much time with Thana?

 

Quinn - Covered extensively. I wish it were the case that he intentionally screwed up the betrayal but, his VA+script, Jaesa's insight and the fact that he does it when called out by the Emperor's Voice means that he more likely than not screwed it up.

 

Jaesa - Jaesa we'd like a word. No, no this is a word between friends. We're all friends here. We're all talking to you because we love you. No it's not an intervention. Ok well maybe it is. Just put down the razor... just put it down. We can't bare to watch you destroy yourself like this.

 

Vette - no examples spring to mind immediately. Doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

Broonmark - He's a self avowed idiot. He hits stuff and enjoys it. Makes me wonder if he hasn't been spending too much time with Jaesa.

 

One of the only companions who's consistently intelligent is probably... the droid. Our closetted mechanical friend.

 

(As you can probably imagine I played Ultima a lot which instilled a general contempt for the intellect of my RPG companions)

Right, where do I start.

 

1. Pierce - from the moment we meet him, we're told that he's basically elite's elite. He and handful of his black ops buddies storm the republic bunker and guess what. They wipe out entire batallion. They were massively outnumbered from the start and yet when we meet Pierce, the only people left standing are the general and his 2 bpdyguards. I say, even despite losing some black ops members, what he did was a success cause he managed to do what moff's army wouldn't + he did it while at huge disadvantage. Also, after unlocking his convos, we learn that he and his buddies were "go to" squad. Every job thought impossible, they did with flying colors. Even our character is surprised about the jobs he pulled.

 

2. Jaesa - you have to draw a line between a psycho (which she is) and whiny emo who likes to cut herself (which she isn't). She cuts others not herself. Now, let's take a closer look at her character. She's ~20 yo girl who had no freedom whatsoever throughout her entire life. She was a handmaiden whose parents openly admitted that they wanted her to marry some random fat noble so they would have to be servants. Her master cared only for her power as it would further his goals. Not to mention he was a massive hypocrite who forbade her to use her powrs on her own to mask his own darkness. She was surrounded by lies and whenever something came up that she started to believe in, it turned out to yet another lie.

 

Contrary to what people may think, we didn't force her to fall. We exposed those lies and willingly or not, freed her. She was already standing on the edge when she realized what a douche her master really was. By telling her to kill him, we pushed her over - she realized that by killing, she is letting go of all the shackles that were binding her. That the dark side offered unhindered freedom where she could let go and express her emotions. the fact that she goes into murderous rampage can be attributed to her being young and unexperienced but also because she had to bottle up everything. Whenever she learned about someone close being full of ****, whenever she was scorned, she couldn't do anything about it. Then, we she saw how good killing her master felt, she realized that this is the kind of freedom she wanted deep inside - to be able to deal with everything she had to put up with by herself. And it also gives her a rush ("What a thrill")

 

So yeah, she likes cutting others.

 

3. Quinn - ok, that assassination attempt was poor but you have to remember that game mechanics =/= how it really looks like. For all we know, our character actually fought alone against excellent tactician who programmed advanced war droids so they counter everything he learned about the warrior. Just because we overgeared the encounter, doesn't mean that he and his droids didn't actually gave him a run for his money (which I'm fairly sure would be the case if the official novel was released)

 

4. Broonmark - she is single-minded, no argument there but you can't expect him to be complicated, 3D character. His codex entry says that he is very diferent from other Talz. He values strength and generally wants to test himself against worthy opponents. Our warrior promises that so after avenging his clan and weeding out the weak and corrupt (in his eyes at least), he joins him because their goals intermingle. Simple as that.

 

To conclude, let me also remind you about Darth Vowrawn who, when sent to our ship for protection, praises our craw and their prowess. If Dark Council member gives his regards and speaks highly of them - they can't be just random idiots.

Edited January 25, 2012 by gibmachine

[Lexandar]

Right, where do I start.

 

1. Pierce - from the moment we meet him, we're told that he's basically elite's elite. He and handful of his black ops buddies storm the republic bunker and guess what. They wipe out entire batallion. They were massively outnumbered from the start and yet when we meet Pierce, the only people left standing are the general and his 2 bpdyguards. I say, even despite losing some black ops members, what he did was a success cause he managed to do what moff's army wouldn't + he did it while at huge disadvantage. Also, after unlocking his convos, we learn that he and his buddies were "go to" squad. Every job thought impossible, they did with flying colors. Even our character is surprised about the jobs he pulled.

 

Iirc, the bunker was swarming with Republic troops as I was going in. They were almost there but you'd have thought the Crack Ops team would've done things like slice the droids and the numerous turrets in the area to thin their opposition?

 

Given the Moff's proven incompetence, leaving the Toxic Swamp base alone would qualify as a success. Its a shame Lachris isn't around to choke him as that Moff is so damned stupid.

 

To be fair to Pierce he's probably tied with Vette as the least stupid of the lot as far as the quest line goes. But there are Taco Bell sized brain farts which infiltrate his thought processes.

 

2. Jaesa - you have to draw a line between a psycho (which she is) and whiny emo who likes to cut herself (which she isn't). She cuts others not herself. Now, let's take a closer look at her character. She's ~20 yo girl who had no freedom whatsoever throughout her entire life. She was a handmaiden whose parents openly admitted that they wanted her to marry some random fat noble so they would have to be servants. Her master cared only for her power as it would further his goals. Not to mention he was a massive hypocrite who forbade her to use her powrs on her own to mask his own darkness. She was surrounded by lies and whenever something came up that she started to believe in, it turned out to yet another lie.

 

Contrary to what people may think, we didn't force her to fall. We exposed those lies and willingly or not, freed her. She was already standing on the edge when she realized what a douche her master really was. By telling her to kill him, we pushed her over - she realized that by killing, she is letting go of all the shackles that were binding her. That the dark side offered unhindered freedom where she could let go and express her emotions. the fact that she goes into murderous rampage can be attributed to her being young and unexperienced but also because she had to bottle up everything. Whenever she learned about someone close being full of ****, whenever she was scorned, she couldn't do anything about it. Then, we she saw how good killing her master felt, she realized that this is the kind of freedom she wanted deep inside - to be able to deal with everything she had to put up with by herself. And it also gives her a rush ("What a thrill")

 

So yeah, she likes cutting others.

 

For clarity's sake, I define Jaesa's emo more in the context of "I hang around graveyards and cut people and myself because I'm edgy and cool" rather than the Carth Onasi emo style of "Waaaaah".

 

And that alone doesn't cause people to just flip. The evidence just isn't there. Her stifling upbringing may have contributed to some of her idiosyncrasies but most people from uptight families don't go on serial self harming and sociopathy sprees.

 

Concerning her fall, the correct answer lies in the choices the SW makes. I'm sure if her parents, masters, friends and colleagues were murdered in cold blood the SW would be fairly instrumental in her fall. If however some or none of these conditions were reached then your point stands.

 

Taking a step back, Jaesa annoyed me because she was so monodimensional. Her VA was terrible, sounding like an irritating frat girl. I wouldn't have minded the "I cut myself for fun" element of her persona if it wasn't so tritely overdone and stereotypical.

 

3. Quinn - ok, that assassination attempt was poor but you have to remember that game mechanics =/= how it really looks like. For all we know, our character actually fought alone against excellent tactician who programmed advanced war droids so they counter everything he learned about the warrior. Just because we overgeared the encounter, doesn't mean that he and his droids didn't actually gave him a run for his money (which I'm fairly sure would be the case if the official novel was released)

 

I'm willing to give the element of the doubt for the game mechanics just as I was willing to go into the obvious trap with an open mind to whether Quinn was actually serious or not. But 2 droids? Seriously? When so many other options presented themselves in the story. I mean Baras just wanted the SW dead, outright. Not left to run on his own devices for some master scheme Baras had planned. And Baras clearly sent Quinn to spy on you. On Balmorra both him and Quinn effectively call you an incompetent moron not 2 minutes until Quinn suddenly "sees great things" in you and wants to join. It was a setup from the get go.

 

I also stress that there is a danger on relying on novels/comics for canon in that they stretch the realms of (already) tenuous believability to the frankly absurd. Either that or embark on the "my bad guy's dick is bigger than everyone else's" creep - c.f. Vuuzhan Vong and Caedus later.

 

4. Broonmark - she is single-minded, no argument there but you can't expect him to be complicated, 3D character. His codex entry says that he is very diferent from other Talz. He values strength and generally wants to test himself against worthy opponents. Our warrior promises that so after avenging his clan and weeding out the weak and corrupt (in his eyes at least), he joins him because their goals intermingle. Simple as that.

 

To be fair to Broonmark, I didn't expect him to be anything more than an idiot. But an idiot he is. That said his idiocy stems from his psychopathy, in the same way as, say, John Wayne Gacy's reasoning would be utterly alien to most normal people.

 

To be even fairer to Broonmark I was utterly spoilt by Khem Val who, by the way, is even more of an idiot albeit an utterly loveable one:

 

 

What did he expect would happen in Zash's ritual? Wasn't he paying attention at all throughout her dialogue or does he zone out and think of killing and food? I assume his negligence when it comes to attention to detail endures from his service to Tulak Hord when he walked into a stasis chamber believing that Tulak Hord would release him and, more laughably yet, not die. Or his failure to recognise Tulak Hord's rituals, despite undoubtedly being privy to at least the idea of it at Yn and Chabosh when Tulak Hord ate Force Users. But I digress

 

To conclude, let me also remind you about Darth Vowrawn who, when sent to our ship for protection, praises our craw and their prowess. If Dark Council member gives his regards and speaks highly of them - they can't be just random idiots.

 

Low praise coming from someone who couldn't face off against someone as bumblingly incompetent as Baras

 

Interesting points you raise there. Comments in red.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Lexandar

[Vurdikt]

I have to jump on the hate wagon here. Just did this last night. And I was uber pissed. It irrtates me that Quinn is the only healer we get, because I personally hate him, even before his betrayal. I'd much rather bring any other companion, except for maybe Broonmark because he's so one dimensional. Then betrayal on top of that, I definitely wanted to kill him. Valuable resource or not, hes a traitor, and has become a liability. I understand that removing him entirely from the game would gimp my character, but its a design flaw that comes at the expense of the story, which the developers tout so much. I can understand some people's reasoning for sparing him, but the removal of the option goes against the central "pillar" of this game. If they were going to insert a scene in the game that justified the offing of a character companion, they should have mitigated the loss of the character in question by either: providing a replacement, or providing another character that can fill that role (having Jaesa or Pierce able to heal). And while I'm on that subject, why the hell did Bioware give us two tanking companions for a tank class. Its utterly worthless. I understand that Marauders can't tank and may use one, but I've actually never seen a Marauder or heard of one using either companion. One tank companion would suffice. If they aren't going to allow us to kill the traitor and offer some type of mitigation, they should simply remove the scene completely, because as it stands now it sucks. Hell, I can't even pretend that I off'd him and leave on the ship, because I'm completely useless without a healer (veangeance juggernaut) on most elite fights, and I have to channel hatred every fight on regular fights using a tank or dps companion. It's pretty annoying as it stands.

[Kaskava]

Here's what I think happened you were probably able to kill him in the beta, But then people realised how much they needed quinn being a healer and all and imo your most valuable one. Because they did say people did complain in the beta after they had killed their companion and made tickets about getting them back

 

^^ This.

[Rhaethe]

And Baras clearly sent Quinn to spy on you. On Balmorra both him and Quinn effectively call you an incompetent moron not 2 minutes until Quinn suddenly "sees great things" in you and wants to join. It was a setup from the get go.

 

 

I clearly do not remember either Quinn or Baras calling my SW an idiot after resolving the Jedi Knight listening in dealie. In fact, the only thing Baras said about it was that he was glad it was resolved, and Quinn said nothing.

 

Maybe an alternate response/response path?

 

Now, I do certainly think that Baras sent along Quinn, sure. I also think that Quinn is a Sith Groupie. An intelligent guy with no force sensitivity who wishes (secretly) he did, so he could be a part of that Sith culture. A culture where the relationship between master and subordinate is always fraught with danger and tactics .. on both sides. A Sith should always expect either their master or subordinate to flip on them, and should always be wachful for that. Both master and subordinate use each other for personal/mutual benefit ... and when the perceived "use" is over? Time to go.

 

Quinn, should he have been force sensitive, would probably have done well, with his ruthless nature and aptitude for tactics. However, he is not force sensitive, so can only gaze upon the upper echelon and want. So he serves, and emulates.

 

That was my thought process one night anyway, heh.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Rhaethe

[DarkestDaemon]

I clearly do not remember either Quinn or Baras calling my SW an idiot after resolving the Jedi Knight listening in dealie. In fact, the only thing Baras said about it was that he was glad it was resolved, and Quinn said nothing.

 

Maybe an alternate response/response path?

 

Now, I do certainly think that Baras sent along Quinn, sure. I also think that Quinn is a Sith Groupie. An intelligent guy with no force sensitivity who wishes (secretly) he did, so he could be a part of that Sith culture. A culture where the relationship between master and subordinate is always fraught with danger and tactics .. on both sides. A Sith should always expect either their master or subordinate to flip on them, and should always be wachful for that. Both master and subordinate use each other for personal/mutual benefit ... and when the perceived "use" is over? Time to go.

 

Quinn, should he have been force sensitive, would probably have done well, with his ruthless nature and aptitude for tactics. However, he is not force sensitive, so can only gaze upon the upper echelon and want. So he serves, and emulates.

 

That was my thought process one night anyway, heh.

 

I think if Quinn -were- Force sensitive. He'd be universally feared amongst the Sith.

[Meranos]

*Facepalm... again*

 

Alright let's put it -this- way...

 

[ snip ]

 

...get to it?

 

For all your dramatic facepalming and droning on, you're not adding anything to your argument save for more opinion, of which there is already plenty. Personally, I disagree with you, but I'm not going to call you names about it.

[DarkestDaemon]

For all your dramatic facepalming and droning on, you're not adding anything to your argument save for more opinion, of which there is already plenty. Personally, I disagree with you, but I'm not going to call you names about it.

 

Then, no offense, you'd be a horrible Sith.

[commanderisaacs]

Killing Quinn was originally possible, but it was met with a lot of people whining on forums saying I killed Quinn and now I cant have a healer again give him back! Edited February 1, 2012 by commanderisaacs

[Karai]

This really irked me since I had more than 9000 affection with him by that point. I would have preferred that at that affection level he'd at least say he was forced into the betrayal somehow. For him to tell me, at that affection level, that he basically thought I sucked, was just a total story/game mechanic disconnect.

 

And I agree that at that point I should have been able to split him in half in the most violent fit of rage I'd displayed up to that point. ...and then, since I NEED a healer companion, they should have let me bring him back as a brainwiped cyborg or something....

 

He actually told me Baras forced him to do this and he didn't wish for it after so much I have done for him. You must have sucked in conversations with him:)

[SidewalkofPain]

I've got to agree with the people saying killing him would be stupid. I hate, hate, HATE the dark side options that make me feel like an idiot, and I had to do a lot of diplomacy missions to finally reach Dark V.

 

Baras might have been a jerk, but the fat ******* was smart. So smart that he mistook me for just another grunt, and his hubris was his downfall. I like the feeling that my character is a schemer, a string-puller, a spider with a lightsaber, spinning a tangled web of intrigue that my enemies walk right into. I love the feeling at the moment of the great reveal when someone realizes I've been playing them all along and everything they've worked for was for nothing. One of the key components to that act is that you never get rid of valuable resources. Scorched earth works against an enemy you know. When you have as much game-playing, deception, intrigue, and entire complicated ************s of backstabbing like you do being a Sith, you have to play smart. You have to be three moves ahead of everyone else if you want to survive.

 

People who slaughter their enemies get written down in the history books. People who manipulate their enemies to work for them and especially to destroy each other get to write the history books.

 

For my part, I'm convinced that Quinn's betrayal was an act to placate Baras so he could avoid getting holo-choked until Baras was dead. There's just no way that Quinn could have seen all the things that I accomplished and truly believed that:

a) him and his pitiful little droids could have even threatened me, and,

b) I wouldn't be able to get rid of Baras by using his own arrogance against him

 

The one rule of the game is that you never play a player; but, if you get stuck between two chessmasters, make sure you choose the winner. Even in chapter 1, it was pretty obvious that I was going to win. I always had one huge advantage over Baras: everyone knows that Baras is sharp, but as a few other posters have pointed out, Baras and a lot of other authority figures treat the SW like a person that isn't even smart enough to chew gum and walk at the same time without tripping. Convincing everyone that I'm all HURR DURR I SMASH WITH GLOWBAT while manipulating them behind the scenes was just awesome.

[Merihim]

Put it this way.

 

If Quinn was actually going to betray you, do you think he would have used -droids- to try and kill your character? I mean, he's seen what you've done to droids... he's seen what you've done to Jedi. No, if he was going to betray you he would have gotten you while you were asleep or just destroyed the station from your ship.

 

Sith would do such a thing. You wouldn't because you don't understand subtlety or the idea of -not- giving up a valuable resource.

 

Okay you are taking things out of context. First he betrayed you, and he used those droids because he fully know your tactics/weaknesses so he programmed those droids to destroy you.

 

And i don't see a weakling like Quinn a valuable resource. More like a thorn in my eye, definitely after what he pulled off.

[pursang]

Okay you are taking things out of context. First he betrayed you, and he used those droids because he fully know your tactics/weaknesses so he programmed those droids to destroy you.

 

And i don't see a weakling like Quinn a valuable resource. More like a thorn in my eye, definitely after what he pulled off.

 

Agreed, not only did he have the gall to turn against me (and through me the EMPEROR of the SITH EMPIRE) after all I did for him - the incompetent idiot decided he was smarter then me! I was left open-mouthed as I saw this traitor to the Sith Empire show his true colors. It didn't make any sense! Him above ALL people should have known that he couldn't have defeated me, especially in a fair fight like this!

 

My character has crushed people for smaller blunders then this. Which ultimately leads me to believe that:

 

A) The writer wants you to think that Quinn is indeed an incompetent fool who likes to make other people believe otherwise, or:

 

B) BioWare forgot to change this mission around to make more sense in the current state of the game (in which we can't kill any of our companions.)

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Edited February 1, 2012 by pursang

[Meranos]

Then, no offense, you'd be a horrible Sith.

 

So refraining from namecalling makes one a "horrible" Sith? Yeah, ok pal.