Sith_Mauler Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I play a merc bh I dont give a crap about sith blood vs non sith blood. I kill em all let the maker sort them out. I actually enjoy killing sniveling imperial officers and sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Actually, it matches with Lore quite well. The two "elite" (and hence tolerated species) are: -Sith Purebloods (and "half-bloods" I suppose) -Human The vast majority of Imperial humans in charge are "speciesist" bigots. This includes the Sith purebloods. While they follow the orders of the Sith, they don't do it out of respect... they do it out of fear. The Sith (Force-user group, not species) don't have any problem with any species as long as they are strong in the Force. If you can use the Force and prove your strength, you could be a Jawa for all they care. Edited January 19, 2012 by Sai-to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 This has gotten a little of topic. Related but different than what I was orrigionally trying to get accross. I am refering to the Empire as a whole, not specifically the sith lords. Also... Durring my questing, I have run into several instances where quest NPCs tell me that if you are not human you are a subspeciese. Yes, the Sith Purebloods are a mix of humans and the Origional Sith, but they are still not just human. The impression that I get is that if you are not pure human then you fall into the "lesser species" catigory. I get this by the commentary made in game. And as you can see, I am not alone. I also take into account that different story arcs get different input. Even I get different types of reactions from different NPCs. But multiple times I have had an Imperial officer NPC tell that the Empire only tolerates non-humans and that if you are not a human you will never measure up. The argument that Sith Purebloods are part human so fall into the human catigory seems bogus to me. Mix breeds are most often seen as less "worthy" than others and discriminated against even more, both in real life and in the Star Wars expanded Universe. Also, please don't act like this is some vicious attack on BioWare. I am not trying to invade your home and destroy your familly. Just trying to spark a conversation based on something that I see as a story flaw. This story is not perfect and never will be. BioWare has made that claim themselves. Mainly because they are experienced and know what they are talking about. So, please lay off the angriness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varinm Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Human elitism is a product of majority/minority politics. Dark Jedi (ostensibly human) fled to the edges of the galaxy to hide. They found the Sith, who they respected for their inherent Force powers. Build an Empire based on Human ambition & Force prowess.... Fast forward, Empire is crushed, and only a few remnants of the Dark Council survive, plus the Lost Tribe (which kills the Sith species in a Lord of the Flies style power-grab, and becomes 100% human) So, the Empire rebuilds again, with a Human power base. Humans, being the most populous race in the galaxy, are always at a numbers advantage. It is dark side nature to test your power, to earn your titles, and defend them until someone else takes them. Allegiances, conspiracies, and backstabbing are normal. Rallying a group of humans against "aliens" who threaten your power is an easy ploy to maintain power. Also, it reflects (minus some violence & lightsabres) RL politics, especially pre WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyshadow Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think the game is a little flawed in this area too, or maybe it's the choice of character class, my experiences: Inquisitor - my wife has an SI, and she's human, she get's no respect because she was a slave and it is believed that she does not have any Sith blood. So not ALL humans are respected. There is also a quest on Korriban for the guy praying in the main hall to test the pureness of the blood of many of the Lords. Operative - the wife also has a Chiss IA, and she seems to get plenty of respect and so far a few of h er contacts have seen an advantage to her alienness, including Keeper, if I remember som of the dialogue, he doesn't seem to not like her and neither does her staff. Bounty Hunter - I run a Chiss bounty hunter, this is generally where I run into a problem, now normally the people I work FOR seem to have no problem with who I am, however some of their underlings don't take too kindly to me, there is a great interlude to this very topic right after Hoth, before you go on to Belsavis. There is a total missed oppurtunity on Balmorra however, where you go to frame someone for killing the Chiss delegate, ti completely misses who I am. High degree of species-ism: mission on Tatooine to capture the "Jawa Shaman" your Sith contact refuses to believe it's possible that someone so "lowly" could wield the Force. Whether or not it was Lucas giving the honor to Palpatine in the movies, or if it's someting that existed for thousands of years, there is no reason to believe it didn't exist in the TOR timeline, especially when you consider we have slavery, class-ism and politicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Human elitism is a product of majority/minority politics. Dark Jedi (ostensibly human) fled to the edges of the galaxy to hide. They found the Sith, who they respected for their inherent Force powers. Build an Empire based on Human ambition & Force prowess.... Fast forward, Empire is crushed, and only a few remnants of the Dark Council survive, plus the Lost Tribe (which kills the Sith species in a Lord of the Flies style power-grab, and becomes 100% human) So, the Empire rebuilds again, with a Human power base. Humans, being the most populous race in the galaxy, are always at a numbers advantage. It is dark side nature to test your power, to earn your titles, and defend them until someone else takes them. Allegiances, conspiracies, and backstabbing are normal. Rallying a group of humans against "aliens" who threaten your power is an easy ploy to maintain power. Also, it reflects (minus some violence & lightsabres) RL politics, especially pre WWII. Hmmm... Interesting! Gotta mull this one over! I like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't think it was added in for any reason other than to pretend to tie to the movies more. Just like the entire aesthetic design of the Empire. It doesn't really make sense for the Ancient Sith Empire because the rulers of the Ancient Sith were all essentially hybrids, so they it really doesn't make sense that they'd care about the race of their subjects. There's so many things in the Kotor games and this one in particular that are written to be reminiscent of the more familiar star wars settings, regardless of the lore errors they create. I don't believe there was any record of similar racism in the Ancient Sith Empire before this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcloudx Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I play a merc bh I dont give a crap about sith blood vs non sith blood. I kill em all let the maker sort them out. I actually enjoy killing sniveling imperial officers and sith. Killing republic officers is more fun..trust me. On topic, at first I disagreed but after the post that was made about how the empire basically is the survivors who fled korriban it makes a bit of sense. Cause they're basically on their revenge spree atm and obviously you're gonna be bias at those who put you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitRoakr Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I don't think it was added in for any reason other than to pretend to tie to the movies more. Just like the entire aesthetic design of the Empire. It doesn't really make sense for the Ancient Sith Empire because the rulers of the Ancient Sith were all essentially hybrids, so they it really doesn't make sense that they'd care about the race of their subjects. There's so many things in the Kotor games and this one in particular that are written to be reminiscent of the more familiar star wars settings, regardless of the lore errors they create. I don't believe there was any record of similar racism in the Ancient Sith Empire before this game. This is exactly how I feel. It seems like they designed this game to be so much like the movies. It smacks of a lack of imagination. Of course certain aspect should be included in order to keep the feel of Star Wars. Absolutely. But the Imperial ships look a lot like Star Destroyers. Malgus looks like Vader with a bare head. There are just so many stereotypical aspects that there is very little origionality. The same plantes, the same designs, the same character types. It just seems that BW spent so much time focusing on world asthetics and creating voiceovers that story origionality was not given any thought. Even the Republic troopers and Imperial troopers look like slightly modified storm troopers! And you can't use that the clones looked the same as a counter argument, because the clone army was 1) an origional army (storywise) that had no predecessors and 2) were the template and predecessors for Storm Troopers. Stormtroopers were based on the Clone Troopers (in fact the first Stormtroopers WERE clone troopers in the new armor until the Empire was able to replace them with natural born humans). Anywho... Like I said. I agree with OldVengeance. The subject that I brought up is just one example of many. None game breaking or anything like that. After all this is just a game and The story is fiction. Star Wars is near and dear to my heart, but I am NOT going to quit it just because there is a small piece I am not happy with. I just wish BW had put more imagination into the story. That is the challenge that Lucas Arts puts out to new content creators of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. And SWTOR is so very cookie-cutter in such a drasticly different era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cartumandua Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I view the Sith Purebloods as a sub-species of human, so it makes sense to me. The "purity of blood" is a long tradition in human societies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) This is exactly how I feel. It seems like they designed this game to be so much like the movies. It smacks of a lack of imagination. Of course certain aspect should be included in order to keep the feel of Star Wars. Absolutely. But the Imperial ships look a lot like Star Destroyers. Malgus looks like Vader with a bare head. There are just so many stereotypical aspects that there is very little origionality. The same plantes, the same designs, the same character types. It just seems that BW spent so much time focusing on world asthetics and creating voiceovers that story origionality was not given any thought. I just wish BW had put more imagination into the story. That is the challenge that Lucas Arts puts out to new content creators of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. And SWTOR is so very cookie-cutter in such a drasticly different era. I suspect it's actually intentional rather than them just being unoriginal. The only thing that strikes me as a little unimaginative was Malgus' visual design. He looks almost exactly like Darth Vader when Luke took his helmet off, but his voice and personality don't remeind me of Vader at all. Although he could very well be part of the trend too. Kotor I had a little too many callbacks to the movies itself but even that had a much more independent feeling and design of it's own. I believe the devs once said their aim was to create "the ultimate star wars game" with TOR so presumably the way to do that was to add in as much familiar star wars stuff as possible so as to appeal to the masses and casual fans even more. They obviously aren't going to recognize much of the EU or probably even Kotor. The Manadalorians' aesthetics come across way more like Boba Fett than the Kotor era Mandalorians. I don't think it's a coincidence that the "Empire" is fighting "rebels" on Balmora and the "Republic" is fighting "separatists" on Ord Mantell. So I would imagine that if they know about any continuity problems, they don't care. Edited January 21, 2012 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krusedullfaen Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 This has gotten a little of topic. Related but different than what I was orrigionally trying to get accross. I am refering to the Empire as a whole, not specifically the sith lords. Also... Durring my questing, I have run into several instances where quest NPCs tell me that if you are not human you are a subspeciese. Yes, the Sith Purebloods are a mix of humans and the Origional Sith, but they are still not just human. The impression that I get is that if you are not pure human then you fall into the "lesser species" catigory. I get this by the commentary made in game. And as you can see, I am not alone. I also take into account that different story arcs get different input. Even I get different types of reactions from different NPCs. But multiple times I have had an Imperial officer NPC tell that the Empire only tolerates non-humans and that if you are not a human you will never measure up. The argument that Sith Purebloods are part human so fall into the human catigory seems bogus to me. Mix breeds are most often seen as less "worthy" than others and discriminated against even more, both in real life and in the Star Wars expanded Universe. Also, please don't act like this is some vicious attack on BioWare. I am not trying to invade your home and destroy your familly. Just trying to spark a conversation based on something that I see as a story flaw. This story is not perfect and never will be. BioWare has made that claim themselves. Mainly because they are experienced and know what they are talking about. So, please lay off the angriness. This is not that hard to figure out. Sith purebloods are the exception to the rule. Of course they are not human, the name pureblood doesn't even begin to make sense if you consider their origins. But that's how it is, the Pureblods are the exception, they are the best because they have the blood of True Sith, that's all there is to it. Is it really that surprising to find hypocrisy in the Empire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRieh Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I play for the Republic, female mirialan scoundrel. I was recently doing my quests on Nar Shaddaa, and there was a line that involved destroying empire genocide project. Don't wanna spoil anything - just the subject of that project made me somewhat and . Burning down the Evocii??? Really??? Empire must be aware of what troubles those going to make in ep.6....Well thanx they did not choose Ortolan... Also I must admit, the speciesism is not really the empire-only problem. Take a look at the "very heart of the Republic" - Coruscant. Alien refugees do have big problems there. From the locals - not from some agents. I'm a near-human (mirialan as I mentioned) and I also often see phrases which somewhat show me that there are "they" and "us", from both sides. Not absolutely negative, yet it does show some...lets call those "borderlines" between species, all over the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentKitty Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 My SI twilek hear is all the time that she's lucky to be force-sensitive. But I happen to think it's pretty great that the species that you choose to play with matter to the game. And to me it fits that the empire is less welcoming to non-humans than the republic. Even if the republic has it's shady bits as well. The brat-brigade on Taris that wanted their home back comes to mind. But I do like it that they are so very much against my little twilek, it fits with how the empire as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancaglon Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I suspect that a lot of the dialogue is written from the same perspective as that of the KoTOR series, where "The Sith Empire" are actually humans, and the dialogue and events on Taris (in KoTOR 1) makes this pretty clear. Just in case there's anyone that hasn't played KoTOR 1 yet (and also the Revan novel) and doesn't want spoilers... IMO, this is probably due to some part of the conditioning process that the Emperor did to Revan and Malak, and their followers that reached Dromund Kaas, as an additional safety measure of some sort -- he did not want to reveal the existence of the true Sith to the Republic at that point. Revan and Malak would probably have been conditioned to turn over "their" Empire to the real Emperor if they had won, but this would have been foiled by Revan's injuries + memory wipe (and by Malak's death). However, this is obviously not really correct in the context of the current Imperial background, but I guess a lot of these quests and dialogue were written and recorded before that tweak -- the Novel makes it clear that humans are definitely second class to the Sith, who all have some sort of force sensitivity (if they do not, they are killed at or shortly after birth). It's just that other species are even lower down the scale, with Twi'leks and others actually being, by the Emperor's command, permanent slave races that cannot ever be freed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 silence the alien scum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDTC Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 anti-alien racism is such a boring non sequitur in the TOR sith empire. like, why? it doesnt add anything. nothing about the empire entails racism. expansionist dark-side-of-the-force empire with a big military and a goal of conquer. ergo they are all racists. ?? does bioware think we wont know bad people unless they are racists? is it more nostalgia exploitation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lugtor Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 For me it makes no sense either, that the Empire is Speciest. It contradricts the Sith Code. Power > all. No matter what species you are from. Imho this was only implemented to make them look more evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavieDe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 For me it makes no sense either, that the Empire is Speciest. It contradricts the Sith Code. Power > all. No matter what species you are from. Imho this was only implemented to make them look more evil. In this case the Sith believe that being pure blood means there more powerful in the force and thus better if, you water the blood you lessen the power, a pure blood with no or little force sensitivity is no better then any other Alien and are ostracized by the rest of the Sith, And powerfull Non Blood Sith can still command any below them if there power is greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennej Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Have you ever talked to a real-life racist? They tend to not make much sense either. But within the context of the game, it kind of does. Look at it this way: The Sith are all about self. Empowering yourself. Making yourself stronger. Getting what you want. So they tend to be very selfish. Now, if someone were to have that inflated of an ego, wouldn't they naturally see anyone else as inferior? Furthermore, its stated in the Warrior storyline that its only recently that the standards for admittance to the Sith Academy was relaxed to allow anyone with Force Sensitivity. Edited January 23, 2012 by Tennej Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 For me it makes no sense either, that the Empire is Speciest. It contradricts the Sith Code. Power > all. No matter what species you are from. Imho this was only implemented to make them look more evil. The Sith aren't speciesist. It's the humans in power within the Empire which are. The Sith respect strength... anyone who can prove themselves is respected/feared. The humans in power in the Empire are the speciesists. They also have no problem with enslaving entire planets. Remember, the Empire is supposed to be a reflection of the Nazis during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedikillar Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Actually, in this time its non-humans & non-sith are discrimnated against. Sith purebloods(despite them not being exactly pure...) generally look down upon humans as well, though not as much as other species. Sorry if this was posted b4, i was too lazy to read through 2 pages(lol...) Oh and also, a sith pureblood born non-force sensitive is looked down upon by some sith purebloods more than even other species. Some that is(Im looking at you lord scourge...) Edited January 24, 2012 by Jedikillar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koronii Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 The Sith aren't speciesist. It's the humans in power within the Empire which are. The Sith respect strength... anyone who can prove themselves is respected/feared. The humans in power in the Empire are the speciesists. They also have no problem with enslaving entire planets. Remember, the Empire is supposed to be a reflection of the Nazis during WWII. A lot of Sith are speciesist, look at Harkun for instance. The Sith and their Empire draw a lot upon Nazi ideology. This includes the insanity of Nazi race theory, where peoples have destinies based on how 'pure' their race is. This is why the Purebloods make so much noise about their heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 A lot of Sith are speciesist, look at Harkun for instance. The Sith and their Empire draw a lot upon Nazi ideology. This includes the insanity of Nazi race theory, where peoples have destinies based on how 'pure' their race is. This is why the Purebloods make so much noise about their heritage. Isn't Harkun the guy you first talk to for Sith Inquisitor? He isn't speciesist... he just believes in Slavery. The vast majority of the Sith (as in Force users) in the Empire really don't give two ****s about your race... as long as you're strong. But yes, you're right about the Nazi ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDav Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Isn't Harkun the guy you first talk to for Sith Inquisitor? He isn't speciesist... he just believes in Slavery. The vast majority of the Sith (as in Force users) in the Empire really don't give two ****s about your race... as long as you're strong. But yes, you're right about the Nazi ideology. Well they care they just might not be in your face about it. In the Revan book the one Darth lord Scourge was working for (Nyriss I think) referred to the humans as as lesser species when talking about a fellow dark council member who was a human. The Sith purebloods do look down on other races and non-force sensitives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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