Weekly server maintenance EU times?

[Kthx]

This and the rest of the EULA doesnt isnt even worth to be printed on toilettpaper. The legal validity of that writing is null and void in the EU. Here in Sweden it aint worth **** and cant be used as a legal document. Only in the USA they seem to think that you can Use lengthy legal sounding "pappers".

 

This is not true at all. According to Swedish law, as in most countries, a legally binding contract can be written or not, and can be executed in a number of different ways, through oral agreement, through acceptance of a product, or through signature. The only requirement is that there is a some action: You cannot passively agree to a contract, but installing a product is clearly an affirmative action and there is no reason the EULA would not be legally binding.

 

However, if the contract includes unreasonable or contradictory requirements, you have the right to retroactively make reconciliatory adjustments to it (see Paragaph 36 in Swedish contract law [36§ avtalslagen]). Again, this does not mean that the EULA is not legally binding, only that it has to be reasonable in order to be so.

 

In europe we still have strong consumer rights law.

 

Yes, but it is also true that EULAs are legally accepted contracts.

[Vlakrar]

Yes, but it is also true that EULAs are legally accepted contracts.

 

 

While I can't argue with the rest of your post, as I have no clue about Swedish Contract Laws....this bit is wrong.

 

Yes, they are considered valid contracts, however many have and will continue to be thrown out by the European Courts as they are not presented at purchase.

[Malastare]

Yes, they are considered valid contracts, however many have and will continue to be thrown out by the European Courts as they are not presented at purchase.

 

Doesn't matter. You accepted the EULA before you created your account and before you paid for a subscription. You cannot even install the software without creating an account. If you bought the box but didn't agree to the EULA, then you never created an account, never registered the access code, and you still have a salable (and, in theory, returnable) piece of merchandise.

 

If you have created an account, then you have accepted the EULA. If some part of the EULA is contradictory or prohibited by local law, then the EULA is either completely invalid or modifiable by the grantor (assuming the EULA is worded to allow that). You don't get to pretend they don't exist.

 

(God, I hate it when people color their posts to try and make them stand out.)

[Kthx]

Yes, they are considered valid contracts, however many have and will continue to be thrown out by the European Courts as they are not presented at purchase.

 

The EULA enters into effect when you install the software, use the software, or click on accept, not when you purchase the software. Having said that, I would like to read some the cases you refer to. Can you provide a specific example?

[Malastare]

The EULA enters into effect when you install the software, use the software, or click on accept, not when you purchase the software. Having said that, I would like to read some the cases you refer to. Can you provide a specific example?

 

I will grant him that I've seen cases where "shrinkwrap" EULAs have been voided or overturned in courts because the licenses state that you've already agreed to them by simply opening the box or reading them.

 

That sort of complaint could be used here, but only against the box version and only in the case where you wish to return the box version for the price you paid. Once you install the software, you cannot argue that you were not aware of the license and did not agree to it.

 

Similarly, the argument of "Yeah, I played the game and agreed to the license, but you didn't show me the license when I picked up the box, so now I should be allowed to play the game and dictate my own service terms" is naive, silly, and false.

[Kthx]

Doesn't matter. You accepted the EULA before you created your account and before you paid for a subscription. You cannot even install the software without creating an account.

 

This is not correct.

 

When you create the account you agree to the EA and Lucasarts Privacy policies and the EA Terms of Service (see http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/). You do not accept the EULA. The EULA is accepted when you click on "I accept", install the software, or use the software. It is a completely different agreement than the EA Terms of Services that you agree to when you create your account (see http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala). The former is generic to all gaming services provided by EA (for example, it includes references to XBox and Playstation, which obviously have nothing to do with SWTOR); the latter is specific to the use of SWTOR.

[Malastare]

This is not correct.

 

When you create the account you agree to the EA and Lucasarts Privacy policies and the EA Terms of Service (see http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/). You do not accept the EULA. The EULA is accepted when you click on "I accept", install the software, or use the software.

 

Correct, I was being too generic in my terminology.

 

However, ignoring that, the point still stands and has merit: many of the complaints people have on this issue are actually covered by the Terms of Service, not the SWTOR EULA. In particular, the statement that EA does not guarantee the service to be available at all times, or at any specific time, is included in the ToS, and by creating an account, you agree that this is acceptable.

[Kthx]

In particular, the statement that EA does not guarantee the service to be available at all times, or at any specific time, is included in the ToS, and by creating an account, you agree that this is acceptable.

 

To be precise, that statement is in both agreements.

[Mandrax]

Correct, I was being too generic in my terminology.

 

However, ignoring that, the point still stands and has merit: many of the complaints people have on this issue are actually covered by the Terms of Service, not the SWTOR EULA. In particular, the statement that EA does not guarantee the service to be available at all times, or at any specific time, is included in the ToS, and by creating an account, you agree that this is acceptable.

 

I agree that those things are in the ToS and the EULA, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they are shafting the EU player base whilst catering to the US player base.

 

People aren't saying they shouldn't do maintenance, they are saying they should do it when the least amount of people are online. That means in the middle of the night, for each region. Not the middle of the night for US and to hell with everybody else.

 

Wait until the Asia/Pacific servers go online. It has been stated that there will only be ONE maintenance time globally. This means that their maintenance times will be during peak hours.

 

BioWare are really terrible at the MMO thing. I'm glad I'll be saving my money. If they learn how to do it properly, I might come back, but there again, with so much competition in the MMO space this year, it's likely I'll have better things to do.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Mandrax

[Malastare]

I agree that those things are in the ToS and the EULA, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they are shafting the EU player base whilst catering to the US player base.

 

Let's avoid the hyperbole here. They aren't shafting the EU. They're inconveniencing them. As much as people like to pretend, morning-to-late-afternoon on a Tuesday is not "prime time". It's just "time".

 

People aren't saying they shouldn't do maintenance, they are saying they should do it when the least amount of people are online.

 

I agree completely.

 

If only someone knew what time the fewest number of people were playing. I can't wait for someone to invent server logs so Bioware could get some hard numbers on when that might be.

 

I guess we can dream.

 

That means in the middle of the night,

 

Good point. That sounds reasonable. I'm so happy we're on the same page.

 

for each region.

 

Wait... so, you're not really complaining about EU getting inconvenient maintenance times, but offering your global networking service expertise to help Bioware manage weekly, segmented maintenance windows. That's pretty nice of you.

 

I'm curious.... can you share some secrets with me, specifically how you plan on resolving the conflict between server versions and client versions when the clients aren't region locked but server update times are? I'll admit that I'm interested because I've only been a software developer for twelve years and only had two years of experience maintaining global service networks with millions of customers. It'd be nice to hear how the real pros do it.

 

Not the middle of the night for US and to hell with everybody else.

 

I'll be the first to admit that its easy for me to say this, being on the East Coast with some of the best maintenance hours, but all the evidence we have now says that the current maintenance window is the period of time when there are the fewest numbers of global players. I'm sorry that you're not in the majority and this means you can't play for four hours on Tuesday. I would like to do more, but to be honest, if that really makes an impact on the happiness of your life, then you're already pretty well off and I don't think there's much I could contribute.

 

Would region-local maintenance times be nice? Sure. Would you be willing to pay for that with region-locked clients? Do you think you're in the majority?

[kufa]

Cutting. Costs. Everywhere.

[CactusBrawler]

 

Wait... so, you're not really complaining about EU getting inconvenient maintenance times, but offering your global networking service expertise to help Bioware manage weekly, segmented maintenance windows. That's pretty nice of you.

 

I'm curious.... can you share some secrets with me, specifically how you plan on resolving the conflict between server versions and client versions when the clients aren't region locked but server update times are? I'll admit that I'm interested because I've only been a software developer for twelve years and only had two years of experience maintaining global service networks with millions of customers. It'd be nice to hear how the real pros do it.

 

 

Rift manage's it.

 

As did DCUO somewhat.

[Juanxlink]

Rift manage's it.

 

As did DCUO somewhat.

 

Dont worry hes not looking for any answer, just grinding the people's gears defending a pretty bad system by BW, but meh, biodrones do what biodrones do.

[ferroz]

I live in eastern europe currently so that means 10 am to 3 pm.

So, during some of the lowest usage times, eh?

 

The only reasonable alternative is to reduce the price of the EU subscription relative to the US subscription since we have less playtime available

No, you have exactly the same amount of time available...

 

If there is a considered reason for this policy it would be helpful to hear it officially.

It seems like it should be pretty obvious to anyone who has ever maintained a distributed application that uses a mirrored database setup...

[utio]

Dont worry hes not looking for any answer, just grinding the people's gears defending a pretty bad system by BW, but meh, biodrones do what biodrones do.

 

So wait, rift does it? So pretty much everything he said was uninformed crap? But he's had experience in servers so we must accept what he says as truth?!!

[CactusBrawler]

So wait, rift does it? So pretty much everything he said was uninformed crap? But he's had experience in servers so we must accept what he says as truth?!!

 

Rift does indeed, and handles it with a simple 'Hey which servers are you going on?' question followed by a 'Just gimme a moment to patch that' or 'I'm just going to unpatch that for you.'

[nadokaoh]

im confused I thought everyone quiet so why so many complaining

[Alexx_T]

Rift does indeed, and handles it with a simple 'Hey which servers are you going on?' question followed by a 'Just gimme a moment to patch that' or 'I'm just going to unpatch that for you.'

 

Trion must be just unprofessional, because we know, REAL professionals screw their customers over and over again while hiding behind lame excuses.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Alexx_T

[spudbynight]

I just can't get over the attitude of some people on this thread. They seem to revel in seeing other players inconvenience.

[Bananjoe]

I don't believe this to be true at all. From Svensk Distanshandels Branschregler:

 

 

 

Too long; don't read Swedish: No requirement for a signature.

 

Kind of funny that you use something that isnt a law text to try to get your views across. That text you just quoted is a quotation from the Swedish "mailorder" companys industry gathering. not a law text and certanly not applicable to EULAs. That text ONLY covers the usage of a website to purchase items.

 

And then you continue to use other law that isnt entirely applicable to CONSUMER law as avtalslagen isnt the sole lawtext that regulate when companies sell to individualls. We have konsumentköplagen etc.

[Vlakrar]

Cutting. Costs. Everywhere.

 

 

This seems to be the only thing I can think of at the moment, as to why there isn't already split maintenance

[Iiyria]

Seriously ? Come on Devs lock this blizzard of shame.

[deminicord]

To those of you in Europe, I want you to know that we'll be discussing maintenance windows and how we can improve their timing this coming week. We may not have an update immediately (and not before the scheduled maintenance on January 31st) but we have been paying attention to your opinions.

 

Steven, would we get an update anytime soon? this was posted 2 weeks ago and haven't heard anything since then.

 

Would be nice to hear something soon about this.

[LordTie]

Dear Bioware,

 

Can you please give EU players their own forum? Thanks these posts are getting old. I mean you are an American base company so why should they upset their own employees for th sake of times in Europe MOST people are at work.

[Pompeia]

Dear Bioware,

 

Can you please give EU players their own forum? Thanks these posts are getting old. I mean you are an American base company so why should they upset their own employees for th sake of times in Europe MOST people are at work.

 

 

That would be a good idea, considering that most (all?) other MMO games that have european servers also have european forums, aswell has asian forums if the game is available there. Lets face it, we dont like the american players atitude when they stick their nose on issues that dont affect them.

 

I am a part of a group of 4 players here on SWtOR that comes a long way together, since UO times. All of us have diferent play times, and this maintenance affects us all.

 

I am unemployed atm, but even if I wasnt it would affect me during my vacation times, and I would still be pretty pissed about it. Another member of the group works on a hospital - he has diferent working hours each week, and days off that often arent on weekends. It affects him. Same hapens to a repairs (I have no idea what he's profession is called) friend. He may be called anytime to repair roofs and whatnot, at any time and any hour of the week, and he often has days off in the middle of the week and works at weekend. The last member of the team is retired, so unless maintenance would hapen at night it would always affect him.

 

Like the members of my group there are tons of other persons in europe that match this lack of a 9h to 5h american dream job. And it tends to get worst has we try to overcome the crisis and have to do what ever overtime or weird working hours an employer would sudgest, since there is a tremendous lack of job offers atm.