The Hardcore are what drive MMO's. So goes the hardcore, so goes SWTOR

[Gomuningen]

This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities.

 

The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest.

 

If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining.

 

This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact.

 

I did not know playing a game for 15-20 hours a day was something to strive for. I think I will quit my job, divorce my wife, say goodbye to my son and move in with my parents.

 

Once I have done the above can I join the super cool elite club of "Hardcore" gamers? Will girls then like me? Will I be treated like a rock star?

[AutomaticBob]

This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities.

 

The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest.

 

If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining.

 

This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact.

 

Ego stroking device - ACTIVATE!

[Tanntolas]

I totally agree with the OP's view. Seeing level 60s hanging out in Ironforge in tier 2 was a key component in driving me to continue leveling. Being an extreme casual at the time, it took me nearly a year to reach max level. Six years later I'm still subscribed I have 5 level 85s and I raid on a regular schedule. Edited January 17, 2012 by Tanntolas

[Aisar]

Hardcores are the minority and casuals keep a game going. Everyone will leave the game eventually, it's Bioware's ability to draw in new players and keep them that is the key

 

hardcore means nothing, they are going to leave anyway. no new newbs=population slowly dies off.

 

and yes i am a hardcore, and no this game is not good enough for me (yet). just started up age of conan, can't wait to see what it is like.

[racsofp]

I wouldn't consider them "hardcore". To most people, "hardcore" players in an MMO are considered to be either the dedicated PvPers or the end-game raiders who focus on such a single facet and optimize their character to absolute perfection. To them, it's all about overcoming the challenge in PvP/Raid, and they are always pushing the bar on difficulty. MMOs that cater to these players will lose out on the casuals who don't want seemingly insurmountable challenges. One of the things MMOs have done to resolve this conflict is to offer raids with difficulty levels.

 

If there's one thing that Hardcores do offer to the community at large, it's problem solving. If there's a balance issue in PvP, hardcore PvPers will be taking advantage of it to the max. If there is a trick to make a raid easier, hardcore raiders will find it. Us casuals benefit on what the hardcore players discover, because we follow in their footsteps at where they have already been.

 

As the hardcore players solve the hardest raids, it puts pressure on the devs to come out with harder raids, which the hardcore players work to overcome. While this can be seen as "driving the MMO forward", it can also cause the casuals to be left behind, and when this happens, everyone realizes how important the casual playerbase is for the company's bottom line. That's when the balance shifts the other way and the hardcore players are left out to focus on the money-making casuals.

 

Devs will try their best to appeal to both hardcore & casual players, but it's hard to do that at launch. Bioware tries to make their hardest raids satisfying to hardcore raiders, but it's hard to do that without hardcore raiders pushing the limits. So they put out what they have, and see how the hardcore handles it. The next content patch will take into account what they learned, and hardcores will push the limit again. It'll probably take 2 years of back & forth between Bioware and the hardcore raiders before the raiders start feeling satisfied. Stick with SWTOR and keep offering Bioware constructive feedback on specific things they can do to appeal to the hardcore raiders, more than generic "moah raids & moah content"

 

With the fairly fast & linear leveling curve, and the fact that there are already flashpoints that exist at every level range, I fully expect that the vast majority of new content added will be for end-game, but not all of it focused on "hardcore" players necessarily. Endgame != Harcore. There will probably also be some non-combat new content that appeal most to the casuals, such as social areas to explore & hang out in or non-combat activities (like fishing & festivals in LOTRO)

 

Those who stuck with SWG, I don't call consider the entire playerbase "hardcore", but I would consider them "dedicated". SWTOR will have its own dedicated playerbase that will create the foundation to keep SWTOR going. Some of these dedicated players will also be hardcore PvP/Raiders, but not all of them and certainly not so soon in an MMO development cycle.

 

As for communities, some of the best MMO communities I've been a part of have been run by dedicated casuals who were more interested in the socializing aspect than the gameplay aspect.

I just wanted to say, that was an excellent post.

[Zorvas]

Don't you find it odd then instead of fixing Class issues , combat skill delays , GTN interfaces , Crew Skills , PvP issues ...ect . You know , the things that will effect "Everyone". One of the first patchs to be released involves endgame content and raids..??

 

Just saying...

[Drallbait]

This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities.

 

The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest.

 

If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining.

 

This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact.

 

Wrong. Classic problem with hardcore gamers, they have ability to think outside their own situation. I've seen both sides of the fence so I have more perspective.

 

Hardcores do drive niche MMOs. To go beyond that, you have to attract casuals. Only one MMO has ever done that at a successful level and thats WoW. Bioware is trying to focus mostly on the casual market so we will see if it works. My guess is it will. Casuals want Story, VO and cinematics and are far, far more numerous.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Drallbait

[Megasuperb]

This has been true since the days of UO/EQ1. The hardcore drive the game. They are the most involved in every aspect of the game and are the ones who create communities.

 

The hardcore give the casuals someone to look up to. Casuals look at the hardcore gamer and their gear and accomplishments and want to be like them. This in turns gets casuals to play more and push to be more hardcore themselves. Without the hardcore crowd casuals will never see what they could possibly become and without any cool goals to look forward to casuals lose interest.

 

If SWTOR is to succeed it needs to focus a good chunk of its dev time on endgame content which is difficult and gives out rare rewards that few will get but everyone will dream of obtaining.

 

This dynamic has been proven true time and time again. It is no longer hypothesis. It is no longer even a theory. It is fact.

 

Yeah, this is why I hate hardcores. They think they're something special. Just because they have more time to spend in a video game is somehow worthy of being "looked up to". When in contrast, the first thing I'd say is "get a life".

 

Jeez.

[Aisar]

Yeah, this is why I hate hardcores. They think they're something special. Just because they have more time to spend in a video game is somehow worthy of being "looked up to". When in contrast, the first thing I'd say is "get a life".

 

Jeez.

 

MMOs used to be that way, however the new generation of MMO users are too casual and have spoiled the genre as a whole.

 

Forget about what real MMOs used to be like, this is a new age. Everything is different.

 

The casual is in charge now.

[Puppup]

Children should be seen, not heard.

[BobTheTeepo]

Don't you find it odd then instead of fixing Class issues , combat skill delays , GTN interfaces , Crew Skills , PvP issues ...ect . You know , the things that will effect "Everyone". One of the first patchs to be released involves endgame content and raids..??

 

Just saying...

 

Not at all considering they've stated they have one team for bug fixing and one team for content creating.

[Nerdwing]

blizzard built their empire on the backs of casual players. There are no harcore mmo players, the use of the word hardcore in association with gamers always gives me a good laugh.

 

b-b-b-but my e-sports!!!!

[Mr_Crueak]

The only thing the hardcore drives with the op in mind is the short bus!

 

MMO's in general are driven by the casual players, they are the money cows, they are what the devs cater to. A MMO can live without the hard core players and still be a main stream success in the genre but that same is not true for the most part the other way around since being "hard core" is also being in the "minority"

[Sinnesloeschen]

Reaching the max level and having seen all the content, yeah i guess i would kinda "look up" to those people to a certain degree. But raiding the same dungeon over and over again just to finally get a certain item, i think i more pity them.

[BeeblesTV]

[Mannic]

Hardcores are not the majority. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will reach true wisdom enlightenment.

 

WoW didn't get so popular because of hardcores ... think about it.

 

No one is "the majority." When are you guys going to get this? Everyone has a different playstyle. Casuals keep trying to find power in numbers, only to discover that there are totally different types of casual players out there. Some think 10 hours a week is too much to devote to a game. Some think 3-4 hours a night is "casual." Some think only raiding 1 night a week is "casual." Some think caring at all about the game is "too hardcore." Some only PvP. Some never PvP. Some want a steep gear grind. Some want none. Some want more difficult content. Some want content anyone can do blindfolded.

 

Until someone can come up with a clear definition of "casual," and "hardcore," this argument will continue to be as stupid as it always has been, with everyone and his brother claiming to fall into the "majority" playstyle that does not exist.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Mannic

[Drallbait]

MMOs used to be that way, however the new generation of MMO users are too casual and have spoiled the genre as a whole.

 

Forget about what real MMOs used to be like, this is a new age. Everything is different.

 

The casual is in charge now.

 

Good reasons for that.

 

1) There are a ton more casuals than hardcores because most people just don't have time to spend that much of their life on a game.

 

2) "Hardcores", while it generally means "People who spend more time, energy and resources on gaming" don't actually agree on much at all beyond that they want to play all the time. Even a really hardcore sandbox MMO that has stuck around forever like EVE, has as many hardcores that lol at it and hate it as they do people that actually play. Since you can't even capture this whole group with any one game, its a stupid commitment to make to spend money to try.

 

3) "Hardcores", by their nature of playing way too much, go through game content way, way too fast. So unless you can invent the perfect Hamster wheel, you can't make enough content to keep them around for long no matter what you do.

 

4) "Hardcores" won't just leave a game after they have played it for 5 years and 300 days /played, they will trash it on the Forums before they leave. They care, way, way too much. They want an alternate world they can live in forever, and that (thankfully) doesn't exist. Whereas casuals just play a game until they are bored, then they might say "That was fun" and go play the next one. (Heck when I was a kid and game that lasted longer than a couple days was awesome!, now it has to last years on end...)..

[stupidhero]

Casual does not allow for a feeling of achievement. If everyone can do so, there is nothing to it. Hence the players can only be kept by a social aspect to the game. In this scenario on the other hand I'm better of managing my own little farm on my favorite social media site.

 

WoW was able to move from elitism to casual, because it had the social bonds - which any social media sites relies on - crafted over a longer period of time with a strong focus on hardcore content (that is Vanilla and BC)

[RocNessMonster]

Hardcore players clear the content, then unsub until new content is pushed out. In the meantime they are subbed to some other game until they have raced through that content too. Casual players take longer to wade through the content and stay subbed whilst they do so. Many casual players are still not done with the previous update when the new update comes.

 

That's not true at all, many casual players roam from game to game cause they lose interest. They wouldn't be casual otherwise. Most hardcores pick a game and stick with it because they've invested so much time into their game of choice. Casuals don't have that kind of attachment and desperately wait for the next big shiney (see the entire COD franchise) to attract their attention.

 

FYI, the majority of players, as stated by Blizzard, are considered softcore. They have the metrics to make this conclusion, all you arm chair game analysts don't have the tools to make an assumption.

Edited January 17, 2012 by RocNessMonster

[Zistar]

100% agree with this.

 

Casuals which make up the bulk (maybe 80%) of the playerbase will not agree with this but they do not understand how it works.

 

The top playerbase moves on then the next, then the next and so on.

 

No-one wants to play a game aimed at low level skilled players.

 

Casuals do not equal low skilled players.

[lunabaguna]

This exact same argument was made at the launch of WoW when there was no endgame til 3 months in.... guess it wasnt true. Tbh, PvP and casual players are the driving force of a successful mmo. PvP has always been the staying power of all mmos, ever since Habitat. If you keep pvpers happy, you keep the game strong, hence why FPS, even tho they are pretty much the same exact thing over and over and over, have GIANT playerbases. As far as casuals go, they are the ones that will sub for long amounts of time with low overheads and bring goldsellers to the game. Yes, I know we all hate gold sellers, but honestly, they pay for the game and add money into the dev pockets. The only reason WoW lasted as long as it did was that 50% of its playerbase were gold farmers/sellers. There were never more than maybe 5 million actual players.

 

tldr: Hardcore have an overinflated ego, and dont realize that money runs mmos, not 1337 playzors.

Edited January 17, 2012 by lunabaguna

[Fenshire]

No one cares about the hardcores. No one looks up to them. They are an annoying blight on the community. They make up 1% of the community, and demand 100% of the content to be catered to them.

 

Bioware stated early on that this game was not for the hardcore player.

[gnetikjakhammer]

I disagree.

 

Which is more important to America:

 

A) The rich

 

B) Everyone else

 

The rich may be the most notable individuals, but without everyone else the rich would be NOTHING. They would have NOTHING. The "everyone else" group is, as a whole, more necessary and integral to the country as a whole than "the rich" are.

 

While 10% of the playerbase (random statistic) may -- individually -- drive the game more than the 90%, the 90% speak with a much larger voice and are the more necessary of the two groups in my opinion.

 

I don't hate hardcores, I actually identify with them more than I do casual. But I realize that just because I play the game more and with more drive, that does not mean that I'm entitled to special content tailored for my 10% and my 10% alone.

 

 

please re-learn american history. The rich have ALWAYS controlled the way this country is run.

[TheHeadCapper]

Casual does not allow for a feeling of achievement.C)

 

I play games for fun, real life is for real achievments.

[Jimer_Lins]

So-called "hardcore" players are not what drives anything in MMOs. They do not represent the majority of the paying playerbase, they do not represent the playstyle of the paying playerbase, and most of them are actively hostile to the majority of the paying playerbase.

 

Companies who wish to make money do not cater to the so-called "hardcore", who are fickle anyway and have an overly-inflated sense of their own worth to the economic engine that is an MMO.

 

You're not that important, sorry.