Casual = Happy and Re-Subscribing; Hardcore = Rage Quit

[Vlaid]

Hardcore MMO players don't play World of Warcraft.

 

Yeah they play those other MMO's with hundreds of thousands (up to millions) of people competing for world first PVE kills (with paid sponsorship) and rank 1 on arena ladders like uh....um......that.....yeahhhh.

 

What MMO DO hardcore MMO players....play then?

[ladymarmalade]

I'm re-subbing, and I'm not a raider, but I play 4+ hours a day (10 on my days off! LOL!), so I guess you could consider me "hardcore." This game gets better as you level, I'm actually blown away with the story line, the game mechanics and pretty much everything overall (except the female hairstyles - hopefully they'll put in some long flowy styles and put a salon in the game so I can change things up when I get tired of my Princess Leia cinnamon buns. LOL!). Very impressed. It's nice to see another viable option on the MMO market that appeals to adults.

[MrTijger]

Hardcore MMO players don't play World of Warcraft.

 

Heh, thats not what they say

[solidkjames]

Hardcore players are far more efficient. They burn through content, levels and games fast because they know and have seen all the stuff before. They know what to expect, how to win, how to play games.

 

They are also highly critical and spot flaws and design failures much more readily.

 

It's like when you go to an art mueseum with someone who doesn't know much about art. They think the art is beautiful, but they don't really know that the art they are gushing about is considered trash in the art world because it is terrible by comparison to other art.

 

I am not saying SWTOR is bad, but I can tell you I can understand the loudest complaints very well. If the style of the game didn't appeal to me so much I might be with them. The game IS increidbly flawed and missing a lot of features that no MMO (even a low budget one at that) should come without.

 

I think it boils down to the fact that Hardcore MMO players have seen most of what the game has to offer from levels 1-50 already and have formed an opinion. Casual gamers are still in the honeymoon stage of affair with this MMO and still have the rose tinted goggles on when it comes to the bugs/flaws/glitches.

 

Just wait until a lot more casual players get to max level and they realize they can't wear whatever gear they want anymore.....throw away your customizable moddable gear you love....cram yourself into some clone tier set. Wooo! Innovation! That one thing will start the casual gamers raging. I know it did me a bit and I consider myself somewhere between casual and hardcore.

 

They are going to allow people to wear any gear they want and make all gear customizable. That has already been announced. I think the problem is the hardcores want everything NOW and the casuals do not because they aren't there yet. That is the huge difference, you can no appease the hardcore crowd no matter what you do and game companies are seeing this. That is why they are moving away from focusing on that segment and you will see all MMO's going that way in the future. If people want pure grind fests they are more than likely going to have to play Korean MMO's or something like EVE. SWTOR and most of the TRIPLE AAA titles coming out in the next few years are all going to be more casual minded. The I want it now crowd are why most of the new MMO's never make it off the ground. The good news is SWTOR caters to enough people that it will succeed with proper attention to issues and releasing content regularly.

[Fraxture]

I usually play 4+ hours a night, even on work nights, and I love the game.

Does this mean I am a hardcore player who enjoys the game?

 

Not if you disagree with his POV.

[NuanceNW]

Have you noticed this trend on the forums lately? Casual players gush about how much they are enjoying the game whereas MMO veterans and hardcore players seem to be extremely dissatisfied. What are your thoughts? If you accept this premise, why do you think this might be the case? Is it possible Bioware is aware of this and are fine with it (ie, it was a financial decision)?

 

From the casual perspective

We just want a game we can play with family, friends and associate guildies? We want things do that are doable and don't require the stress of a job. We enjoy challenges but we don't define them by meters or which macro rotation is required. We define it by the experience. We are willing to take on hard content and keep trying until the fun wears off for the night. The game is to get away from real life to have something to do that allows us to chill, preferably with online friends.

Why wouldn't Bioware focus on the casuals and bring in the next generation of players who want something focused on them?

 

From the hard core perspective

Instances, gear, ranking systems, statistics, meters, logs, macros, ui mods, game play encounter addons with alerts and visual feedback, cast bars and timers are what make a game.

Let the community define the game and write the additions.

 

From the game company perspective

Bottom line, operation costs, employee benefits, development costs, support costs, marketing costs, manufacturing costs, headquarters, management, sharesholder value-- subscriber numbers, income, return on investment, profits.

Who will subscribe in the most numbers to create revenue?

 

Summary

Hard core players are a focus as much as casual. The problem is hard core players want change, often. This costs money, not just from developing but support which is a long drain on revenue. If you want a game that has all the features that you demand for a game, then what is that game and why aren't you playing it? Probably because it doesn't exist...

 

Seems to me to weigh the company focus vs the needs of a minority of hard cores isn't a platform for success. Getting the most subscribers, bump marketing to sell keys or t shirts or books would be the focus. The most players are casuals, profit means keeping them happy vs the costs to keep hard cores.

 

Hard cores feel games coming on the market should have their every feature and function before shipping. That's setting false expectations and delusional thinking. The delusion is in the expectation. No gaming company out the door has had everything. People overlook the challenges other successful MMOs have had. They overlook how long it took to put features in place and how often those features came with an expansion price or two or three or four or five... and even then "the game" -- what ever that may be -- didn't get it perfect.

 

Hard cores once defined the success of a game, that's simply not the case anymore. Casual players now have social sites too and their word of mouth or social marketing create the momentum for games now. They drive fan subscriptions.

 

Something people tend to overlook is that game company developers and designers and artists are gamers. They probably play this game as much as any of us. Personally I think if these guys are happy with the game, then hey, that's the game love it or leave it.

 

If it's something that you enjoy, then play it and provide the constructive feedback that is probably already written down somewhere inside Bioware on a long list of potential options.

 

This isn't a typical game, this is part of a highly successful franchise based around Star Wars. It attracts new players to the gaming community unlike other MMOs. Players might not be the old veterans in Star Wars. You're likely to see people that simple like the genre coming into the world of online gaming for the first time.

 

Think about it this way, this game is attracting a new set of players and they like it. That means success and long term potential.

Edited January 17, 2012 by NuanceNW

[Makade]

I'm re-subbing, and I'm not a raider, but I play 4+ hours a day (10 on my days off! LOL!), so I guess you could consider me "hardcore." This game gets better as you level, I'm actually blown away with the story line, the game mechanics and pretty much everything overall (except the female hairstyles - hopefully they'll put in some long flowy styles and put a salon in the game so I can change things up when I get tired of my Princess Leia cinnamon buns. LOL!). Very impressed. It's nice to see another viable option on the MMO market that appeals to adults.

 

Thank you for your respectful reply.

[DarrkLore]

I've been playing MMOs since the original Everquest and I play just about every day for at least 4 hours and I love the game. But I've also been taking my sweet time getting to level cap since endgame is always bare bones at launch. If you plan ahead, it's pretty hard to get bored. Edited January 17, 2012 by DarrkLore

[Tehroth]

I dislike the game, and I am a hardcore veteran player, but I prefer more intuitive combat. At least combo systems ala AoC/Dcuo for themepark and fps style for sandbox, but the real disappointment for many is that this game is a clone.

 

A clone of WoW to be exact, with nothing real meaningful. You pvp to gear gear and pve to get gear. That is all. You have no real incentive to play the game just gear grind. What this game does do, gets boring fast or is contorted into uselessness due to the mechanics of the game. Such as player crafted gear. then there are things this game does terribly wrong such as no level queue brackets and instances to split up the community.

 

If you enjoy the mindless drivel that is WoW and pretty much every other themepark mmorpg that has been released for the past 7 years, then you will most likely enjoy this game, even WoW(despite me hating it) is a much better game.

 

I foresee this game going Free to play within 6months to 1 year just like Dcuo. Quote me on it.

 

And to you wannabe hardcore gamers. WoW is not hardcore, just makes you spend tons of time getting gear.

 

Now Darkfall online, Eve, Lineage, Uo, games that have servere penalties for dying are hardcore.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Tehroth

[Crashedhardrive]

I'm an MMO vet and, I suppose, a casual gamer.

 

As a vet I feel confident saying that Veterans of MMO's especially those that have been through multiple launches should know better than to say the sky is falling this soon after release. It seems silly to me that they would be shocked at the state of the game this early on.

 

Hardcore players are a whole different entity. I honestly believe there is no way to make them happy and typically trying to appeal to them loses more players overall since they wont ever be pleased and the casuals wont like the direction the game is taking.

[MrTijger]

To the OP, I believe that the semi-casual/ casual player was the intended audience, not people who label themselves as 'hardcore', personally I agree with that but some will disagree, however, this game never said it was going to please everyone.

[Jett-Rinn]

I'm re-subbing, and I'm not a raider, but I play 4+ hours a day (10 on my days off! LOL!), so I guess you could consider me "hardcore." This game gets better as you level, I'm actually blown away with the story line, the game mechanics and pretty much everything overall (except the female hairstyles - hopefully they'll put in some long flowy styles and put a salon in the game so I can change things up when I get tired of my Princess Leia cinnamon buns. LOL!). Very impressed. It's nice to see another viable option on the MMO market that appeals to adults.

 

I dub thee Casualcore a growing but significant demographic.

[GarbonzotheDude]

I don't know where this mindset is coming from. Any mmo vet knew what this game was going to be about long before it came out so really aren't any surprises with what the game focuses on and the gameplay. Due to the popularity of this game before it launched there was an ample amount of information to be found on it. Not to mention how easy it was to get into the beta.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with being a casual or hardcore player. I think it has to do with what you find entertaining ina video game as to whether you will really like or dislike this game.

[CommanderFrog]

Im an extremely hardcore gamer, gaming is my life, tis all I do...I love this game, Problem?

[Sanquind]

I consider myself an MMO veteran. 8~9 years of playing MMO's. At least 20 different ones player/tried out. Has been my main genre to play for all those years. And I play like...5~6 hours on average a day.

 

Even so, I doubt I'll be un-subscribing any time soon. I love this game so far. And I refuse to go back to WoW no matter how bored I get in another game.

[Gunryu]

Have you noticed this trend on the forums lately? Casual players gush about how much they are enjoying the game whereas MMO veterans and hardcore players seem to be extremely dissatisfied. What are your thoughts? If you accept this premise, why do you think this might be the case? Is it possible Bioware is aware of this and are fine with it (ie, it was a financial decision)?

 

 

My highest character is level 34 I was taking my time, reached level 30 and started getting bored out of my skull, not exactly hardcore am I? I unsubbed.

[Jswizzle]

From the casual perspective

Why make games for self appointed hard cores when they're the most frequent to complain. They want a game that has feature x or function y and their own expectations will never be met unless they are running the design team -- and those games push away the fun factor for what is a majority of players -- who pay to pay and are a game companies bottom line?

 

Why wouldn't Bioware focus on the casuals and bring in the next generation of players who want something focused on them?

 

From the hard core perspective

Instances, gear, ranking systems, statistics, meters, logs, macros, ui mods, game play encounter addons with alerts and visual feedback, cast bars and timers are what make a game.

 

Let the community define the game and write the additions.

 

From the game company perspective

Bottom line, operation costs, employee benefits, development costs, support costs, marketing costs, manufacturing costs, headquarters, management, sharesholder value-- subscriber numbers, income, return on investment, profits.

 

Who will subscribe in the most numbers to create revenue?

 

Summary

Seems to me to weigh the company focus vs the needs of a minority of hard cores isn't a platform for success. Getting the most subscribers, bump marketing to sell keys or t shirts or books would be the focus. The most players are casuals, profit means keeping them happy vs the costs to keep hard cores.

 

Hard core players are a focus as much as casual. The problem is casuals are more willing to accept game design. Hard core players want change, often. This costs money, not just from developing but support which is a long drain on revenue.

 

LOL you lost me when you said "macros and addons" for hardcore players. I'm going to have to say that's not hardcore period.

[DarrkLore]

I'm an MMO vet and, I suppose, a casual gamer.

 

As a vet I feel confident saying that Veterans of MMO's especially those that have been through multiple launches should know better than to say the sky is falling this soon after release. It seems silly to me that they would be shocked at the state of the game this early on.

 

Agreed.

[Vlaid]

They are going to allow people to wear any gear they want and make all gear customizable. That has already been announced. I think the problem is the hardcores want everything NOW and the casuals do not because they aren't there yet. That is the huge difference, you can no appease the hardcore crowd no matter what you do and game companies are seeing this. That is why they are moving away from focusing on that segment and you will see all MMO's going that way in the future. If people want pure grind fests they are more than likely going to have to play Korean MMO's or something like EVE. SWTOR and most of the TRIPLE AAA titles coming out in the next few years are all going to be more casual minded. The I want it now crowd are why most of the new MMO's never make it off the ground. The good news is SWTOR caters to enough people that it will succeed with proper attention to issues and releasing content regularly.

 

Not to nit pick, but I wouldn't call SWTOR a triple A MMO yet.

 

It is incredibly flawed in glitches, bugs, faction classes mirrors with clear advantages to one side or another, combat delays, no macro, no ui customization, no option to turn off camera smart pivot (this option has been standard since 10 years ago), no combat log, no addons, no recount (makes it really hard to know if you're improving or not....or what rotation is right....if you have no idea how much damage you're doing as a DPS). The list just goes on. I could just write an endless list of flaws with the game.

 

No game should be released in this shape. In the end, they may have Warhammer'ed themselves by not waiting about 4 months longer to iron out the critical flaws like these. I've been through more MMO releases than most (betas included). I know what to expect from a launch.

 

But this one? This is one of the worst I've seen. Only WoW/D2 might possibly top it in terribleness of launch-trimester.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Vlaid

[Mashy]

Other than WoW's success, which was built on a foundation that was far more hardcore than it is now, I'd like to see some examples of MMO's that have had great success by building on a more casual format. I keep seeing this "developers go where the money is" argument, but I have yet to see a single example where the developer actually succeeded with this strategy in a subscriber based MMO. There's no evidence that casual players can make up the backbone of a subscription-based MMO. It drains all life out of the game when its too easy, gives your game a bad reputation, and makes even casual players not want to play it.

 

I don't think I have ever laughed as hard at anything as I just did at that...

[Jett-Rinn]

I dislike the game, and I am a hardcore veteran player, but I prefer more intuitive combat. At least combo systems ala AoC/Dcuo for themepark and fps style for sandbox, but the real disappointment for many is that this game is a clone.

 

A clone of WoW to be exact, with nothing real meaningful. You pvp to gear gear and pve to get gear. That is all. You have no real incentive to play the game just gear grind. What this game does do, gets boring fast or is contorted into uselessness due to the mechanics of the game. Such as player crafted gear. then there are things this game does terribly wrong such as no level queue brackets and instances to split up the community.

 

If you enjoy the mindless drivel that is WoW and pretty much every other themepark mmorpg that has been released for the past 7 years, then you will most likely enjoy this game, even WoW(despite me hating it) is a much better game.

 

I foresee this game going Free to play within 6months to 1 year just like Dcuo. Quote me on it.

 

Not going to happen despite how hard you wish it..the investors are doing happy dances because the subscriber base is still growing....I see many late adopters in game and more are coming...in the UK you still can't find a box copy and folks are on waiting lists; Dr Ray even has talked about the possibility of limiting stock even more because they don't want the servers to become overwhelmed and they only want to open new ones if they absolutely have to.

 

 

The game is a stellar success; I know that burns you up but it is...winning GOTY after GOTY award.

 

Just because you hate it doesn't make it fail.

 

/wave

[Ancientwolfgr]

In other words, you can't answer the question and are going to fall back on the "if you don't know I'm certainly not going to tell you" argument. How many MMO's from the nineties are still rolling with huge subscription bases? How many MMO's from before WoW are still rolling with more than 250K subs? None.

 

There are maybe 5 sub-based MMO's in NA right now that aren't just squeaking by from month to month trying to pay the bills. WoW, Aion, Rift, Eve, and maybe a couple others. Rift is an example of a game where, the more they've dumbed down content and made it easier, the more they've bled out subscribers. WoW is clearly dying. Aion I never played, but I know it's in no way casual. Eve Online is anything but casual. What "casually attuned" MMO's are out there with 100K + subscribers?

 

You cant even tell the difference between profitable here. If the games are in the red they shut down or remodel their base. Waving sub numbers vs. the end of month/quarterly earnings does not impress an accountant, let alone a board of directors and investors.

 

The latter of which, I'm very well used to speaking with- profit is still profit and given the market saturation, high sub numbers over the long term are not expected anymore given the realized categories of players, as I outlined. Sorry, but if you cant approach the conversation with the facts you wont get much sympathy, or, response.

[Ancientwolfgr]

Originally Posted by Mannic

Other than WoW's success, which was built on a foundation that was far more hardcore than it is now, I'd like to see some examples of MMO's that have had great success by building on a more casual format. I keep seeing this "developers go where the money is" argument, but I have yet to see a single example where the developer actually succeeded with this strategy in a subscriber based MMO. There's no evidence that casual players can make up the backbone of a subscription-based MMO. It drains all life out of the game when its too easy, gives your game a bad reputation, and makes even casual players not want to play it.

 

I don't think I have ever laughed as hard at anything as I just did at that...

 

Thats why I just rolled my eyes and moved on.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Ancientwolfgr

[Rawtlol]

i dont think it has anything to do of hardcore vs softcore, but more of those who hit 50 vs those who havent yet.

 

i was amped for this game, bought it months before it was out, followed it for 4ish years, particpated in 3 betas (didnt just play betas, actually looked for/took time submitting bugs,etc) and im completely sick of this game atm. the complete lack of effort put into anything at endgame is astonishing.

 

Its all grits and gravy until you hit 50, then its a cold slap in the face of how rushed this game was.

[Selestian]

Have you noticed this trend on the forums lately? Casual players gush about how much they are enjoying the game whereas MMO veterans and hardcore players seem to be extremely dissatisfied. What are your thoughts? If you accept this premise, why do you think this might be the case? Is it possible Bioware is aware of this and are fine with it (ie, it was a financial decision)?

 

I've been playing these sorta games since they were called MUDs. I am not sure how much more "veteran" than that you can get.

 

I am not "extremely dissatisfied".