Tips on Jugg Threat

[Drevix]

Im a lvl 50 Jugg tank rocking about 70% purps with only 14.5k HP which seems low to me (unbuffed), but i stack Def and Shield chance/Absorb more than I do END because mitigation > Healsponge.

 

Im fine when it comes to surviving, however I lose threat constantly, even on single target bosses. granted pug DPS rarely give me a head start, I usually open with Saber throw, rage, taunt and force charge. The taunt for good measure.

 

I often lose the boss mob about 1 minute into the fight and have to rock more taunts. Now, my general roation is SA, Prio with CB on CD as well as Smash Retaliate and Assault in between. I also Force Scream as often as i can for that shield. And i choke for free damage since its talented. I dont understand?? I use backhand as an open as well and on CD when theres room for it while keeping armor stacks up. Tips? *** am i doing wrong?

[AureliusVoss]

dont beat your self up too much, im also a jugg tank, i tank hardmodes with friends and OT raids. Jugg is not as blessed lets say, at the other classes when it comes to aggro holding ability. Your only direct threat ability is backhand, on a one minute cooldown, after that you are purely damage tanking, so its understandable why it might be difficult to outdamage a geared, and often stupid dps, who doesnt know when to chill and when to let loose.

 

My only advice would be, the threat mechanic in this games makes it difficult for teamates to get threat off of you, but its a double edged sword because if you lose aggro, it's now become twice as hard to get it back. Aoe tanking in hardmodes is usually a **** show for juggs, utilize team CC's for far away targets, thne after that smash, cleave cleave cleave cleave.

 

For single targets, because its harder for people to take aggro from someone who has it, start with the heavy hitters, lightsaber throw, get that talent that makes force scream free after a charge, so charge in, force scream, crushing blow, backhand, then continue the rotation using those cooldowns as they come up. The idea is to go in heavy, to give you more leeway against outrageous mercenary dps from outthreating you. ALWAYS prioritize, backhand > crushing blow > force scream > smash. When your backhand is on cooldown you are damage tanking, you need to hit hard, so if you have like 3 rage, and ANY of those cooldowns are near finishing, dont use vicious, waste a GC for one more rage, then smack them with a 2k crushing blow crit, instead of a 500 vicious slash.

 

Also use taunt whenever you need to. The thing with taunting is, just because you taunted doesnt mean their yours, you usually have to smack them, hard, to convince them to stay on you. So if i lose aggro to a ranged dps or healer for example and NONE of my heavy hitting cooldowns are up, force scream, crushing blow, backhand, i'll CC the mob as long as i can with force push and force choke (talented) before tauning them, in the hopes that one of my cooldowns will be up before the cc runs out, so i can taunt and then hit them with a crushing blow, this is much more efficient then taunting, then hitting with a vicious, and losing aggro as soon as taunt wears off, wasting a precious cooldown.

 

sorry for the wall of text, hope this helped a little =(

Edited January 17, 2012 by AureliusVoss

[AllanGand]

for initial aggro here's what I use.

 

Saber throw > jump > backhand > force scream > sundering assault > crushing blow > smash

 

fit in retaliate in there when it comes up. After that I just keep up all the debuffs/buffs. So smash to keep the 5% accuracy debuff, keep your armour stacks up and always try to get retaliate and force scream off as soon as possible.

 

Anyway my opening rotation works well only if you have sundering assault talented to put 2 stacks of armour on the target instead of just 1. I dropped my 4% shield chance for the 2 points since I don't use shield all that much. You do this because of the way crushing blow works. It adds the debuff stacks first and then it does the damage, therefore it will do a 5 stack damage during that rotation, that's i believe another 500-600 damage compared to a blow at less than 5 stacks.

 

Alternately you could drop a sunder right after jump, that way you can have 2 stacks before dropping your crushing blow.

 

 

No worries, it's normal to have to taunt the boss at first, as your threat is not bursty. But if you need to taunt more than once or twice after the start (unless it's a boss mechanic) you might just be undergeared when compared to your dps, or you are not button mashing enough. Seriously if you miss 1-2 gcds cause of the bug or any other reason, you are at a threat to lose aggro.

 

Also make sure to smack them hard when you taunt. The way taunt works is that it stops everyone but yourself from creating threat for those 6 seconds.

Edited January 17, 2012 by AllanGand

[Alchies]

dont beat your self up too much, im also a jugg tank, i tank hardmodes with friends and OT raids. Jugg is not as blessed lets say, at the other classes when it comes to aggro holding ability. Your only direct threat ability is backhand, on a one minute cooldown, after that you are purely damage tanking, so its understandable why it might be difficult to outdamage a geared, and often stupid dps, who doesnt know when to chill and when to let loose.

 

My only advice would be, the threat mechanic in this games makes it difficult for teamates to get threat off of you, but its a double edged sword because if you lose aggro, it's now become twice as hard to get it back. Aoe tanking in hardmodes is usually a **** show for juggs, utilize team CC's for far away targets, thne after that smash, cleave cleave cleave cleave.

 

For single targets, because its harder for people to take aggro from someone who has it, start with the heavy hitters, lightsaber throw, get that talent that makes force scream free after a charge, so charge in, force scream, crushing blow, backhand, then continue the rotation using those cooldowns as they come up. The idea is to go in heavy, to give you more leeway against outrageous mercenary dps from outthreating you. ALWAYS prioritize, backhand > crushing blow > force scream > smash. When your backhand is on cooldown you are damage tanking, you need to hit hard, so if you have like 3 rage, and ANY of those cooldowns are near finishing, dont use vicious, waste a GC for one more rage, then smack them with a 2k crushing blow crit, instead of a 500 vicious slash.

 

Also use taunt whenever you need to. The thing with taunting is, just because you taunted doesnt mean their yours, you usually have to smack them, hard, to convince them to stay on you. So if i lose aggro to a ranged dps or healer for example and NONE of my heavy hitting cooldowns are up, force scream, crushing blow, backhand, i'll CC the mob as long as i can with force push and force choke (talented) before tauning them, in the hopes that one of my cooldowns will be up before the cc runs out, so i can taunt and then hit them with a crushing blow, this is much more efficient then taunting, then hitting with a vicious, and losing aggro as soon as taunt wears off, wasting a precious cooldown.

 

sorry for the wall of text, hope this helped a little =(

 

 

 

Oh thanks a lot, I thought it was me!

Did my first operation yesterday, so there were around 8 mobs.. I was the only tank sooo.... tabbing like crazy trying to hit everything and playing ping pong from one ranged mob to another. I never felt like such a baddie before, but it calms me a little hearing I'm not the only one with this issue!

 

Single target aggro isn't as bad luckily, I personally only use taunt whenever I lose threat on bosses. Because it doesn't feel like something that actually increases aggro but rather just makes you targeted for a mare 5-6 seconds. I also swap guard and use intercede a lot for when I do lose aggro.

 

But nice info, thanks.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Alchies

[Xesmai]

still lvling though but here is my 2 cents... tanked some Heroics n yet no1 has peeled off me for single target.

 

single target

 

saber throw > charge > savage kick (yes u can!) > backhand > sundering assault > smash > force scream > then single target priorities like force scream > smash > sundering assault > backhand. for rage dump normally i will use thrash. ravage is undependable as u might get stuck in animation with no dmg dealt.

 

AoE assuming 4 targets with no CC

 

saber throw C > enrage enroute to charge > charge main target followed by savage kick > position to get smash land on as much targets as possible > force choke D > taunt b > mass taunt > spam sweeping slash on as much target as possible.

by this rotation if mobs are still not dead... GG to dps.

 

thats jus me... hopefully i get tips on wat i can improve on my rotation n it helps u on ur rotation planning

 

i reckon our job is to hold onto mobs as long as possible b4 they peel off to dps/heals for overaggro.

 

we are in a new era... no more wow tanking where 1 hit = glued.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Xesmai
missed out some parts

[Cassp]

Jugg threat sucks! quiete simply. you will not hold threat off a good dps, when people come on here telling you tanking is fine and they never lose threat... their dps sucks.

its easily countered, just rotate your aoe taunt and your single target and don't sweat it, most of the bosses arent an insta death when someone takes aggro like in wow.

 

oh yea and theres nothing you need to tank thats aoe in raids, other then trash.. and you don't even have to tank trash.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Cassp

[Heley]

I would say you're wasting rage by using enrage before the pull. Saber throw and charge take you near max, so by using enrage as well youre missing out. I personally use once I'm in the thick of thing if needed (eg spamming sweeping slash).

[Drevix]

Thanks for all the replies! I was looking into the Sundering Assault Talent, but I'm a pretty huge mitigation whore. I wish there were combat logs so I could see exactly how much damage my shields are absorbing .

[Aikagi]

Thanks for all the replies! I was looking into the Sundering Assault Talent, but I'm a pretty huge mitigation whore. I wish there were combat logs so I could see exactly how much damage my shields are absorbing .

Not as much as you think probably. It's a well known issue that the shield/defence isn't working great at the moment. Although the issues are more noticeable in PvP rather than PvE.

[drkieros]

I would say you're wasting rage by using enrage before the pull. Saber throw and charge take you near max, so by using enrage as well youre missing out. I personally use once I'm in the thick of thing if needed (eg spamming sweeping slash).

 

 

Yup, don't use enrage until after the pull so you can keep going. Saber Throw + Charge will give you enough rage to Scream, if you sundering assault after than you will have enough rage for crushing blow. After that is when you should use enrage because you should be down to 1-2 rage depending on if retaliation came up.

[moxpanda]

Thanks for all the replies! I was looking into the Sundering Assault Talent, but I'm a pretty huge mitigation whore. I wish there were combat logs so I could see exactly how much damage my shields are absorbing .

 

I've been rolling without a shield for a couple FPs now, and the only significant difference I've noticed is that retribution doesn't come up AS often, but it doesn't really hurt because I'm also finding I clear mobs faster too. Still occasionally lose aggro, but only when the DPS feels like blowing all of his CDs. I think generator is superior to shield, but I'd like to hear a level 50 jugg's views on it, because I'm sure we get gear that makes shields worthwhile later on.

[Farabee]

50 Immortal jugg here. Gear is all Columi/Rakata.

 

Yeah, even with using CB and BH on cooldown and Retal when it's up, pushing as many VS in while not missing CDs on Smash/Scream I still lose threat to good DPS and have to taunt back during the fight. It's frustrating...Bioware really needs to give Immortal an outright damage/threat buff.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Farabee

[Disgraced]

50 Immortal jugg here. Gear is all Columi/Rakata.

 

Yeah, even with using CB and BH on cooldown and Retal when it's up, pushing as many VS in while not missing CDs on Smash/Scream I still lose threat to good DPS and have to taunt back during the fight. It's frustrating...Bioware really needs to give Immortal an outright damage/threat buff.

 

 

Help me out here...

 

If the DPS is pulling aggro... shouldn't they slow down a bit? Isn't that part of the group dynamic?

[Aikagi]

Help me out here...

 

If the DPS is pulling aggro... shouldn't they slow down a bit? Isn't that part of the group dynamic?

I don't think Bioware really considered that when they designed the boss fights, a lot of them have enrage timers which don't really take into account having to build up threat at the start, etc.

[jonL]

read what your taunt does

[Kallti]

Help me out here...

 

If the DPS is pulling aggro... shouldn't they slow down a bit? Isn't that part of the group dynamic?

 

The problem is that they only know they need to slow down when it is too late and the boss is attacking them. There is no threat meter to warn you to 'slow down'. The boss is either attacking the Tank or attacking the DPS.

 

The group dynamic should be; if the tank does everything correctly, threat should not be a problem. If a DPS pulls aggro, the tank stuffed up.

 

At the moment, that is not the case. I don't mind if 'doing everything correctly' is a difficult process, in fact, I'd prefer it. But when it becomes impossible, then there is a design problem.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kallti

[Kallti]

read what your taunt does

 

I can assure you that Bioware did not intend for Taunt to be part of a tanking rotation. Taunt is there to pickup adds and can also be used in case you stuff up or need to tank-swap due to debuffs, but never should it be part of a normal threat building rotation.

 

Every tanking class has a taunt, Juggs are the only one which has to use it in order to maintain threat? Doesn't seem right does it?

 

EDIT: I should explain further, Taunt does not generate any threat on it's own, it merely takes over someone else's threat. So, if you are saying that a tank should be using it in their standard skill priority, then you are saying that the tank relies on others to build threat for him/her. Which is stupid because the whole point of a tank is to build and maintain threat by him/herself.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kallti

[Gankstah]

Jugg is not as blessed lets say, at the other classes when it comes to aggro holding ability.

 

Sins would disagree with you wholeheartedly. And I wouldn't blame them. Spec'd Smash has more potential AoE damage than all of their AoE abilities combined.

 

But anyway, back on topic.

 

I can assure you that Bioware did not intend for Taunt to be part of a tanking rotation. Taunt is there to pickup adds and can also be used in case you stuff up or need to tank-swap due to debuffs, but never should it be part of a normal threat building rotation.

 

Every tanking class has a taunt, Juggs are the only one which has to use it in order to maintain threat? Doesn't seem right does it?

 

EDIT: I should explain further, Taunt does not generate any threat on it's own, it merely takes over someone else's threat. So, if you are saying that a tank should be using it in their standard skill priority, then you are saying that the tank relies on others to build threat for him/her. Which is stupid because the whole point of a tank is to build and maintain threat by him/herself.

 

I see this question/discussion a lot. So I'm going to direct you to this thread. What you want to look at specifically is the Threat Theory section. I'm not trying to plug another thread I just don't feel like posting again what has already been outlined and there is a lot of information in there to address.

 

The first step to better aggro management is understanding how it works. Once players understand how it works then they can start analyzing what it is they're doing wrong. The best tip I can possibly give tanks (regardless of archetype), which is mentioned in that thread, is (if their computer is capable) to Fraps some of their encounters. Granted, not all PC's are capable of running Fraps or similar programs in the background while plugging away on an MMO.

 

BUT IF YOU CAN then do it. It's difficult to say, even to one's self, "I don't get what's going wrong" when you're in the moment. But reviewing what's going on afterwards, you can spot your mistakes. Simple reflection isn't enough. Physically watching yourself play, you can actively analyze what it is you're doing and what you're not doing. You have the opportunity to objectively say to yourself, "Well that was dumb."

 

You catch a lot of things by following this method. It's the same in competitive sports. Every team, I don't care how good they are or what sport they play, goes through footage reviewing their games. So they can see where it is things went wrong and where they went right.

 

It's nearly impossible to analyze your performance WHILE you're playing. And more often than not, you end up answering your own questions before you even have a chance to post on the forums, "QQ WTFBBQ! JUGGS ARE TEH SUX!" I'm not saying that's what you're doing. I'm just saying that there are proactive steps players can take themselves to improve their own gaming experience.

 

If there is one Juggernaut, just one, out there that is not having issues with threat management then that means everyone has the capability of doing it as well. I will say this, for every poster I see on these forums voicing concerns about Jugg threat, there are at least 1/2 a dozen that are countering with "lrn2play". I'm not saying that's an appropriate response but it is clear that those that are voicing concerns, at least on these forums, are not a "massive majority".

 

Logically that means the problem isn't with the class but rather the understanding of how said class functions.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Gankstah

[Vid-szhite]

Yup, don't use enrage until after the pull so you can keep going. Saber Throw + Charge will give you enough rage to Scream, if you sundering assault after than you will have enough rage for crushing blow. After that is when you should use enrage because you should be down to 1-2 rage depending on if retaliation came up.

 

Before you get Saber Throw, Enrage before the pull is fine. Once you get Saber Throw, I too discovered that it is indeed a waste to use it before the pull.

[FuzioNdapro]

immortal tree is broken and need TPS/DPS and Migtation increase to be onpar with others. it will be fixed soon most likley im 100% sure when exactly i dont know thou.

[FerrusPA]

If there is one Juggernaut, just one, out there that is not having issues with threat management then that means everyone has the capability of doing it as well. I will say this, for every poster I see on these forums voicing concerns about Jugg threat, there are at least 1/2 a dozen that are countering with "lrn2play". I'm not saying that's an appropriate response but it is clear that those that are voicing concerns, at least on these forums, are not a "massive majority".

 

And how many of those "L2P" types never actually tanked a high-level Flashpoint themselves? How many of them are actually level 25 "tanks" and simply assume because THEY don't have threat issues everyone else must be doing it wrong?

 

I tanked all of the Heroic Instances in WoW on my warrior. I never really went raiding with that character because it wasn't my main, mind, but I should be able to compare my Juggernauts performance in lvl50 FPs to my warriors performance, right? The most severe issue I see at the moment is the fact that there is no reliable threat building ability. Backhand should not be that high up in the Immortal tree and it should not be on a huge cooldown. That would help tremendously.

[lordofdamornin]

I am still testing (using raid-geared dps, while I am not raid-geared myself), but I think some of the rotations (read: priority systems) listed in this thread are incorrect at this time.

 

If it matters, here is who is helping me test:

 

50 Marauder (Carnage), who peels off of every tank he has come across, regardless of class. So far, it's not a matter of if, but when.

 

50 Assassin

 

50 Sniper

 

My current theory is that a lot of Juggernauts (on a single target) are trying to get their sunder stack up too quickly. This helps the dps (melee in particular) much more than it helps us, compounded by the fact that it helps them in the meat of their opening rotation, leaving us with a net threat deficit early in the fight.

 

In regards to AE tanking - we have the tools to do it well. AE tanking is all about being in a good group, that takes the few seconds to communicate, and coordinate pulls. That's really all there is to it.

 

Single Target - how you get there is variable, but once on target, my current priority system is:

 

Crushing Blow

Scream

Smash

Retaliation

Sundering Assault

 

I will keep testing, and see what actually works the best in time.

 

Someone mentioned recording your play, and reviewing it to see where you are making errors. I agree, 100%, and do watch my own footage frequently. The nice thing about this game is that you can (currently) watch other people's footage, and learn from their mistakes, because this is ToR, not World of Addon-craft, so it's very easy to follow.

 

I think we are in an OK place, but a few tweaks are needed. Removing the restrictions on Pommel Strike, and dropping it's CD to 15-20s would be a good start.

 

Riôt

[Dharnell]

I am still testing (using raid-geared dps, while I am not raid-geared myself), but I think some of the rotations (read: priority systems) listed in this thread are incorrect at this time.

 

If it matters, here is who is helping me test:

 

50 Marauder (Carnage), who peels off of every tank he has come across, regardless of class. So far, it's not a matter of if, but when.

 

50 Assassin

 

50 Sniper

 

My current theory is that a lot of Juggernauts (on a single target) are trying to get their sunder stack up too quickly. This helps the dps (melee in particular) much more than it helps us, compounded by the fact that it helps them in the meat of their opening rotation, leaving us with a net threat deficit early in the fight.

In regards to AE tanking - we have the tools to do it well. AE tanking is all about being in a good group, that takes the few seconds to communicate, and coordinate pulls. That's really all there is to it.

 

Single Target - how you get there is variable, but once on target, my current priority system is:

 

Crushing Blow

Scream

Smash

Retaliation

Sundering Assault

 

I will keep testing, and see what actually works the best in time.

 

Someone mentioned recording your play, and reviewing it to see where you are making errors. I agree, 100%, and do watch my own footage frequently. The nice thing about this game is that you can (currently) watch other people's footage, and learn from their mistakes, because this is ToR, not World of Addon-craft, so it's very easy to follow.

 

I think we are in an OK place, but a few tweaks are needed. Removing the restrictions on Pommel Strike, and dropping it's CD to 15-20s would be a good start.

 

Riôt

 

I stopped reading after the red text...

[DarthSponge]

i hope bw sees that we need more aggro!!!!!! we want to tank with the best of them not have to plan around the threat system that inst very good..plz fix