Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Microtch]

Please allow recount or the combat logs to be active. THis will help groups and raids get better.

[Frostvein]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=336689

 

Looks like its coming.

[GOYAFIDO]

In the end, if you cater to the "pro-recounters" and implement the same style of Recount as is used in WoW, then you damage the "anti-recounters" because future content will be balanced by the developers to assume Recount is being used.

 

This is really not a debatable point. It is a simple binary conclusion. If the developers have to assume that players can play more efficiently than before, they must "raise the bar" on content difficulty to maintain the same perceived level of challenge.

 

If the enrage timer was 2 minutes before Recount, then after Recount - it'll likely shift downward to perhaps 90 seconds to make up for people streamlining their DPS rotations.

 

If players have the ability to track every single interrupt - it stands to reason that future content would then contain even more abilities that need interrupted or even more debuffs that need removed.

 

The "pro-Recounters" want to have a tool that makes them more efficient. Hey, I appreciate that. The problem is that future content will have to be adjusted so that it's still just as challenging after players are at their new level of efficiency. At that point, the "anti-Recounters" must adapt and use Recount or be forced to play a game that is balanced against them.

 

It's not merely as simple as "refusing to use Recount".

 

This is a great post as to why the content is as easy as it is right now and will likely remain so.

 

The content in this game is dumbed down because of a LACK of faith in players having immense amounts of all those great qualities people keep bringing up as alternatives to dps, healing or threat.

 

I refer of course, to "the dance."

 

The number of players who can hit a stationary rock with air and ground phases far exceeds the number of people who can do "the dance" well, which is why so many encounters in so many games use dps races as gear gates rather than include a more complex dance the developers may have to rebalance due to most players inability to execute it.

 

If the use of addons creates a need for MORE difficult content then it stands to reason that lack of addons creates a need for LESS difficult content.

 

I like simple binary conclusions.

 

EDIT: I just hope Bioware shows more of an interest in the player base that really wants a challenge.

Edited March 1, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Perkunas]

This would be my choice; however, if they release Recount to the game without restricting it to Nightmare mode - then they will inevitably tune future normal content to a higher level of difficulty too.

 

Why? LFR raids aren't tuned for min/max at all. 3 levels of difficulty are fine.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Perkunas

[Frostvein]

The number of players who can hit a stationary rock with air and ground phases far exceeds the number of people who can do "the dance" well, which is why so many encounters in so many games use dps races as gear gates rather than include a more complex dance the developers may have to rebalance due to most players inability to execute it.

 

This just isn't true.

 

Any game that wants to deliver challenging content has a mixture of both. Dancing is easy. Doing top DPS while stationary is easy. Combining both is not so easy.

[Raeln]

Why? LFR raids aren't tuned for min/max at all. 3 levels of difficulty are fine.

 

LFR is a new mechanic for WoW.

 

Please note, this is TOR and there is no LFR mechanic here [yet].

[Raeln]

This just isn't true.

 

Any game that wants to deliver challenging content has a mixture of both. Dancing is easy. Doing top DPS while stationary is easy. Combining both is not so easy.

 

Doing DPS while dancing also renders the value of meters less significant - especially for classes with ramp up time.

 

If their debuffs/buffs expire during a dance phase, their DPS drops significantly. Yet another reason to avoid the ultimate effects of a unrestricted damage meter.

[Perkunas]

LFR is a new mechanic for WoW.

 

Please note, this is TOR and there is no LFR mechanic here [yet].

 

Doesn't matter. The normal mode could stay the way it currently is.

[Frostvein]

Doing DPS while dancing also renders the value of meters less significant - especially for classes with ramp up time.

 

If their debuffs/buffs expire during a dance phase, their DPS drops significantly. Yet another reason to avoid the ultimate effects of a unrestricted damage meter.

 

I don't get your point. Are you inferring that because some classes have a ramp up time before they reach optimal damage that involving any kind of heavy movement type fights would be unfair to them because some people who don't understand that will use their position on the meters against them?

[GOYAFIDO]

This just isn't true.

 

Any game that wants to deliver challenging content has a mixture of both. Dancing is easy. Doing top DPS while stationary is easy. Combining both is not so easy.

 

In truth, damage/healing/threat are all integral parts of the dance, so one can't really take the dance outside of that and have it be meaningful to say "the dance is easy" or "the dance is hard."

 

If we reduce the "dance" to maneuver and awareness and remove all other elements, in my experience, and I think in most people's, it's not the damage/healing/threat nearly as much as the maneuver and the awareness that people speak of that causes issues. Low dps can be carried much more easily than slow or clumsy maneuver or poor awareness. Dps issues typically just increase the burden on other dps whereas maneuver and awareness issues create greater burden for the tank and the healer as well.

 

In my experience raiding and grouping as a tank, healer and dps, many more wipes are caused by maneuver and awareness issues than by lack of dps. One of the reasons people get overexcited about dps is that excessively high dps for a given piece of content often allows one to power through less than stellar maneuver and awareness.

 

That is the source of my assertion that good maneuver and awareness are more lacking than good dps. As has been beaten into the ground, a decent spec and decent priority list ought to get most people by...and it surely should.

 

Now if they would just kindly go clicky clicky when they are supposed to or root/snare that mob or, most importantly...GET OUT OF THE FIRE!!!

 

Shoot move and communicate is shoot move and communicate. In my experience most people are just better at the shooting part.

[GOYAFIDO]

Doing DPS while dancing also renders the value of meters less significant - especially for classes with ramp up time.

 

If their debuffs/buffs expire during a dance phase, their DPS drops significantly. Yet another reason to avoid the ultimate effects of a unrestricted damage meter.

 

This is an assertion that people who use meters incorrectly will use them to cause others grief. Some of them indeed will.

 

This assertion is in turn based on the assertion that somehow the tiny percentage of players who are true epeener jerks can influence the game of SO MANY people. This just isn't so.

 

So you want to take a tool out of the hands of the many because of the actions of a few because you can't use ignore like the rest of us and just not deal with those sorts of people?

 

Do you believe people should be allowed to play the game they want and not be dictated to by others or not?

Edited March 1, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[TheSkate]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=336689

 

Looks like its coming.

 

Actually all he says in the interview is that the combat log is coming, probably in 1.2, and that you will have to use a third party parser when that does happen. He says nothing about it being an in-game addon. He did say in game parsing will come at a later time. THAT is what was said in the interview. So maybe in 1.3 you will have in-game parsing... or maybe it wont be until 2.0. We don't know.

[Sandtrooper]

If you press me for a one word answer, here is my answer: No.

 

If you press me for an explanation, here it is: elitist jerks that think it is important.

 

 

Sand

Edited March 1, 2012 by Sandtrooper

[Raeln]

Doesn't matter. The normal mode could stay the way it currently is.

 

Do you really believe that if/when Recount is implemented, the developers will not tune all end-game content upward to account for people doing more DPS than previously expected to?

[Raeln]

I don't get your point. Are you inferring that because some classes have a ramp up time before they reach optimal damage that involving any kind of heavy movement type fights would be unfair to them because some people who don't understand that will use their position on the meters against them?

 

That is one example of a good tool being used wrongly, yes.

 

What I was really getting at is encounters with heavy dancing typically have very skewed meter results, DPS wise. Meters on those encounters are more about finding out who was taking unnecessary damage - which, if Bioware sticks to their guns about making the combat log self-only, will not help raid leadership at all on those heavy dance fights.

[Raeln]

This is an assertion that people who use meters incorrectly will use them to cause others grief. Some of them indeed will.

 

This assertion is in turn based on the assertion that somehow the tiny percentage of players who are true epeener jerks can influence the game of SO MANY people. This just isn't so.

 

So you want to take a tool out of the hands of the many because of the actions of a few because you can't use ignore like the rest of us and just not deal with those sorts of people?

 

No. I've already stated many times that I am all for meters being implemented at training dummies and nightmare mode content.

 

Do you believe people should be allowed to play the game they want and not be dictated to by others or not?

 

Yes. People should be able to enjoy their game as the developers intended.

 

A small subset of the playerbase that want to min/max everything will not help people to enjoy that game.

[Perkunas]

Do you really believe that if/when Recount is implemented, the developers will not tune all end-game content upward to account for people doing more DPS than previously expected to?

 

Not all tiers. Just the harder ones. Normal should be kept for people who aren't hardcore raiders.

[Raeln]

Not all tiers. Just the harder ones. Normal should be kept for people who aren't hardcore raiders.

 

You have more optimism about that than I do.

[Aussiedroid]

A tool like Recount is definately not needed. Sounds like another tool that can be used to discriminate against players.

 

The game isnt that hard that we need to be so anal to check our DPS ongoing. Besides a player with lower specs can still compete in most scenarios and contribe if you have a good team.

 

One exception that would be good to give you personally some gauge how you did is an average DPS rating at the end of your FP or OPs run (like a bit of a scoreboard results). That way you can do a FP get an idea of your DPS or HPS etc and work to get better next time you go through.

 

Damage meter in WOW just turned into a race. It results in no team work and individuality takes over. This is a MMO and should be a team game and not have some measure to include or exclude players either based on their DPS or gear.

 

Now a combat log, thats another thing all together, this is needed to help the player understand what is going on in a battle (or more importantly why you have died ).

 

Please dont implement this Bioware!

[_Rammie_]

Lol, having to create content for a third party addon... that is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. And a valid reason to unsubscribe.

 

Maybe the content wasn't actually that more difficult, but the addons made people more stupid so it seemed more difficult.

 

Yes to combat logs.

No to any kind of meter, personal or group.

 

They're simply not needed to be an excellent player.

[Nytak]

No, still don't support it.

 

And now that I have been playing the game since launch, and have done some ops, and HM flashpoints, I'm even firmer in my stance because it simply isn't necessary.

[GOYAFIDO]

No. I've already stated many times that I am all for meters being implemented at training dummies and nightmare mode content.

 

 

 

Yes. People should be able to enjoy their game as the developers intended except for a small subset of the playerbase that want to min/max everything will not help people to enjoy that game.

 

So the answer is "no."

[TheSkate]

So the answer is "no."

 

As is yours. By asking (damn near demanding) for recount you have stated many times you do not want people to be able to play without recount.

 

Once BioWare caves into the recount crowd it will have to tune fights to the higher available DPS so the recount crowd doesn't start whining about the game being too easy. This means everyone will have to start using recount. Of course this will also lead to massive nerfing/buffing cycles (happens every patch in WoW) which in turn leads to the fotm builds, expected rotations and general nastiness towards those that don't play it your way.

 

So your answer is also "no."

[TheSkate]

In truth, damage/healing/threat are all integral parts of the dance, so one can't really take the dance outside of that and have it be meaningful to say "the dance is easy" or "the dance is hard."

 

If we reduce the "dance" to maneuver and awareness and remove all other elements, in my experience, and I think in most people's, it's not the damage/healing/threat nearly as much as the maneuver and the awareness that people speak of that causes issues. Low dps can be carried much more easily than slow or clumsy maneuver or poor awareness. Dps issues typically just increase the burden on other dps whereas maneuver and awareness issues create greater burden for the tank and the healer as well.

 

In my experience raiding and grouping as a tank, healer and dps, many more wipes are caused by maneuver and awareness issues than by lack of dps. One of the reasons people get overexcited about dps is that excessively high dps for a given piece of content often allows one to power through less than stellar maneuver and awareness.

 

That is the source of my assertion that good maneuver and awareness are more lacking than good dps. As has been beaten into the ground, a decent spec and decent priority list ought to get most people by...and it surely should.

 

Now if they would just kindly go clicky clicky when they are supposed to or root/snare that mob or, most importantly...GET OUT OF THE FIRE!!!

 

Shoot move and communicate is shoot move and communicate. In my experience most people are just better at the shooting part.

 

Then why such a ****-on for recount?

[livnthedream]

As is yours. By asking (damn near demanding) for recount you have stated many times you do not want people to be able to play without recount.

 

Once BioWare caves into the recount crowd it will have to tune fights to the higher available DPS so the recount crowd doesn't start whining about the game being too easy. This means everyone will have to start using recount. Of course this will also lead to massive nerfing/buffing cycles (happens every patch in WoW) which in turn leads to the fotm builds, expected rotations and general nastiness towards those that don't play it your way.

 

So your answer is also "no."

 

people are already "whining" about the game being to easy, because it is. thats a large part of the reason that WHY we want recount and such. there should be content that cant quickly or easily be beaten so we have something to actually attain. artificial gating isnt fun, content that is obviously unbeatable, isnt fun. content that is "close" is a HUGE amount of fun. some of the best raids in wow went by this very maxim, and it needs to come back. the recent raid content has been mostly crap across most games. wow itself seems to only have 1 "great" raid per expansion which is just silly.

 

Then why such a ****-on for recount?

 

for the very reason you have a hard on against it. WE WANT CONTENT FOR US. bioware has all of the tools at its disposal to instigate this, and we arent getting it.