Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[GOYAFIDO]

I don't remember who it was in the original iteration of this thread that said it but paraphrasing, "Let's get rid of health bars too. You'll know you are dead when you drop."

 

There's a lot to be said for this. Healers can just spam heals in their private whack-a -mole hell not knowing how much healing they are doing while the DPSers flail away doing often sub-optimal damage, (which can wipe the raid and lead to unnecessary extra attempts), until the boss without a health meter finally falls down.

 

Yes this is a silly example of a silly idea. Damage meters won't hurt anyone or anything. The same elitist tools play this game too and they will figure a way to exclude those unlike themselves. Get over it and go play with someone else. Play with folks who like to raid in a relatively relaxed manner but with some focus so you don't spend hours upon hours wiping and running. If one analyzes fights there are often good reasons why a particular Healer or DPSers numbers drop during a particular fight. Pro raiders should know where and when this occurs and how to mitigate it as well as possible. People will analyze these things whether you like it or not. (The results of this are often strategies that we, the non pro-raiders, can use to down the same bosses without the headaches and the wipes encountered in working original content.)

 

Sadly, this is the era of handing out trophies to the losers of competitions so they don't feel bad for coming up short and so people are being encouraged to settle for being second best. Even if you are casual you should be able to find plenty of references on how to optimize damage or healing for your class and spec if you don't want to figure it out yourself.

 

This isn't rocket science but it DOES involve a lot of numbers...numbers that can be measured and analyzed and used for development.

 

Most of the "NO!!!" replies are based on fear of being seen as incompetent or inept which is understandable until one realizes that having meters can assist one in optimizing ones damage and healing output to a great degree without the anal retentiveness required of professional raiders. For instance, assuming Bioware has taken any time to do some streamlining on damage and healing priorities, ones results should be fairly consistent with ones gear level.

 

The idea of other people seeing my numbers scares me not at all. As a tank and healer in that fantasy game with the initials "W" "O" "W" I liked the various ways of parsing combat logs for checking damage done, healing done...and checking to see which DPS or anyone else...was standing in fire rather than paying attention.

 

I do NOT like the idea that people feel like they should be allowed to waste my or any other players game time wiping in operations and losing in PVP by not bringing their "A" game whenever possible. Not the best gear, not the best damage, not the best healing, but the willingness to listen and learn and try to do better without making excuses.

 

This thread is full of excuses. Players who don't feel like getting off their asses to improve their play make wiping on ops and losing at PVP much more frequent and much less fun for many more people.

 

Say "YES" to meters and other forms of combat log parsing so we can see who IS doing crap damage and crap healing and standing in fire and guide them.

Edited February 9, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Dvander]

Only on training dummies - never on the field. It should be used as a tool to improve -your- performance not raise it up as a beating post for others. aka, you're underperforming, we need to kick you, it's your fault - look at me and look at you, type of thing. That is bad, and not needed.

 

I do however think, that every player should have access to a training zone, where they can practice rotations on their character and figure out which rotations are the most impactful and why (gear choices, talents etc).

[GOYAFIDO]

Only on training dummies - never on the field. It should be used as a tool to improve -your- performance not raise it up as a beating post for others. aka, you're underperforming, we need to kick you, it's your fault - look at me and look at you, type of thing. That is bad, and not needed.

 

I do however think, that every player should have access to a training zone, where they can practice rotations on their character and figure out which rotations are the most impactful and why (gear choices, talents etc).

 

As has been previously pointed out, what information can be gleaned from one set of data without another to compare it to in terms of performance since performance is what kills bosses and wins games?

[MagicalScotto]

Yes I am in favour of combat logs. More for self improvement though. I don't think you should be able to link your data to the rest of the party.

[Dvander]

As has been previously pointed out, what information can be gleaned from one set of data without another to compare it to in terms of performance since performance is what kills bosses and wins games?

 

You compare it to your own performance data, of course, as a self improvement tool. Being the best at what you are capable of, and knowing your limits is winning half the battle. Regardless of what others are capable of doing. Given gear level, that will always change, but ability does not.

 

If you decide that a certain player is under performing in your group, then either help them learn or remove them, that is entirely up to you. But anonymously doing so according to a meter is not something that should be encouraged in a player community.

 

What's next, GS?

[GOYAFIDO]

You compare it to your own performance data, of course, as a self improvement tool. Being the best at what you are capable of, and knowing your limits is winning half the battle. Regardless of what others are capable of doing. Given gear level, that will always change, but ability does not.

 

If you decide that a certain player is under performing in your group, then either help them learn or remove them, that is entirely up to you. But anonymously doing so according to a meter is not something that should be encouraged in a player community.

 

What's next, GS?

 

It would appear you do not wish to have your performance evaluated by others and you are thinking that most of the people who don't want to be "outed" by hard numbers on meters in public are the same self-starter, go-getters who will sit up late trying different rotations and priority lists until they max their DPS...except that they have no numbers to compare them to. They could just read about it instead and max their DPS and HPS and not worry about meters. I think you should reconsider your position because for most people that is just as likely in game as it is in real life...and it's not likely at all.

 

In real life I count on my mentors and colleagues and subordinates to assist me in improving myself even if I don't always agree with them or do what they recommend. I certainly don't hide from them. They count on me to do the best I can. What you and so many others are advocating is a way to avoid responsibility and accountability to your fellow players.

Edited February 9, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[Dvander]

It would appear you do not wish to have your performance evaluated by others and you are thinking that most of the people who don't want to be "outed" by hard numbers on meters in public are the same self-starter, go-getters who will sit up late trying different rotations and priority lists until they max their DPS...except that they have no numbers to compare them to. They could just read about it instead and max their DPS and HPS and not worry about meters. I think you should reconsider your position because for most people that is just as likely in game as it is in real life...and it's not likely at all.

 

In real life I count on my mentors and colleagues and subordinates to assist me in improving myself even if I don't always agree with them or do what they recommend. I certainly don't hide from them. They count on me to do the best I can. What you and so many others are advocating is a way to avoid responsibility and accountability to your fellow players.

 

Um, I really don't care if my performance is evaluated by others and frankly I don't think you have enough data on me to make that personal assumption. I have played WoW for years and was a guild leader during BC, so I have more than enough experience from both sides to know why a) Recount posts were annoying to a lot of people b) was used by elitists outside my group that didn't know one thing about the other people they were playing with except what Recount was telling them about them, to basically decide they were no longer welcome in our group - and rudely telling them so. I know, however, that I did not like those people. I ran with them when my guild was no longer an option and even then on a temporary basis before I discarded them myself.

 

Personally I have never used Recount to determine if my performance was good enough - performance is achieved through practice and information about how your skills interact with each other, what is their priority and desired uptime, along with various situational factors, aka single target or multi target. I don't need Recount to tell me how I'm doing because what I do is tried and tested before I get into a boss fight. If I die in AOE I don't need Recount to tell me that it's my fault. Because I know I did something stupid, and can tell the group that. If I mess up my Rotation, I don't need Recount to reflect by how much - I feel it in my own damage output. That is healthy gaming. But to tell others that through this tool is not.

 

And that just covers dps. There is frankly so much more that makes a good player. Not pulling threat is one, utility is another, and unless your role fits that select few where you are beating a boss timer and your only focus is singular dps to save your life, Recount isn't going to save your group. Only a good player who knows their class, knows their role, and is dedicated to the task at hand, along with prior preparation (gearing themselves at least appropriately for the fight.)

 

And if your solution is Recount to wade through the puddle of pick up players that you feel are not up to the task and can't get a sense of that yourself without Recount to hold it over their heads then, I can't help ya. I was a raid leader for a long time, and could tell when someone wasn't pulling their weight but I was always conscious of other things they were doing, and 'pulling their weight' was never 100% translated by damage numbers.

 

Not dying in fire. Situational awareness. Those are bigger things, and are quite obvious to tell. Being able to tell a good player from a bad player is a quality of, you know, a good player. You don't need Recount to tell you that. Experience does that on its own.

 

I would welcome a tool to help self improvement, but I don't want an elitist community of dissecting a player to where they are no longer a person but a breakdown of numbers. I want to play with people who can actually assess a player by the way they play, and not just staring at a statistical breakdown. And yes, I am a good player, but I do not place myself on a pedestal compared to others. I really don't care, it's something that I practiced and has personal value, it's really not a factor to someone else. I also like to help other players. I don't like the fraction of the community that looks down on players and uses Recount to point out how bad they are in comparison to themselves. That is pathetic.

 

So I welcome Recount as a tool of self improvement.

 

If you are in a competitive guild that is downing content you should be able to form a core of competitive players that share a competitive outlook. They should already bring their A game to a raid, and if you aren't beating a boss fight, then you should re-evaluate your strategy instead of trying to blame someone by looking up Recount numbers. If everyone is trying hard enough, that is. No need to stress it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Dvander

[complexxLT]

I support.

My reason is simple - gearing up in/for raids is as half as fun when you can't see your numbers grow. Loot worth is somewhat cloudy, I can not feel the value of raid rewards therefore motivation to raid is much lower then it could be.

Edited February 9, 2012 by complexxLT

[Barlan]

/signed, some of us want this.

[kroodit]

An in game combat log would be a good idea since as soon as add-ons are created for this game we are all gonna have one anyway. at least those of us who care about competition and doing nightmare raids. people who say that they dont like the idea of everyone being able to see there dps are just paranoid cause they know there dps is sub-par/bad and they dont wanna get kicked.

 

Remember people. Full rakata gear in know way affects a players ability to play there class. Max potential goes up but only if the player is actually doing the correct roatation, has the proper stast etc etc, and lets not forget NOT STANDING IN FIRE

[GOYAFIDO]

...stuff...

 

I think you have been feeling defensive and regurgitating this position for so long that you fail to see that YOU sound EXACTLY like those players you dislike.

 

You call them pathetic elitists and basically say "Good players just know good players and good players don't need meters" and demean players who like and use meters.

 

A name-calling elitist calling other people elitist and demeaning their play preferences. Who'd a thunk it in an MMO, huh?

 

Go look in the mirror. Pot meet kettle. You are the very thing you say you despise.

 

Moving on:

 

What it really seems to boil down to is this.

 

People don't want to get their feelings hurt by:

A.) Being refused entry to or being kicked from a group for having too low DPS and thereby inviting multiple group wipes due to various requirements, including but not limited to timers, not being met as if all the factors you mentioned, while important, somehow mitigate that.

 

B.) Feeling bad because that other guy that lives almost his entire life online has much better gear and has much better damage and healing output--and he likes to give unwanted advice and spam meters in chat.

 

My initial thoughts are: Get over it. Really, get over it. Just like in real life, there are plenty of people with more talent, knowledge, intelligence, nicer stuff and sadly, some of them are very happy to tell you about it.

 

(Some of them are also button pushing monkeys with grind gear so good they almost can't fail at damage or healing.)

 

Get over it. People are here to be entertained and have fun, not wipe over and over on bosses because, despite your "1337" playing skills and awareness you just don't have anything like the damage or healing output for the group to succeed without you being substantially carried. (That said I will take a good player who needs a little lift over a bruiser who stands in fire any time.) PVP at least has bolstering so better players can make more of a difference even if they lack a full toolbox.

 

Why not just say, "I think recount promotes bad attitudes more than it helps with player assessment because..." rather than call other players names and demean their play preferences when it clearly bothers you when they do the same thing to you?

 

In a group setting parsing damage, healing and threat output, (and checking for standing in fire, etc.), help with a basic assessment of brute force throughput relative to the other members of the group which is mostly the point. Everyone can be doing their jobs perfectly and without the damage and/or healing they won't be able to take down a boss even without an enrage timer. So yeah, keep thinking that damage and healing output aren't relevant enough to downing a boss to keep track of.

 

Let's take the damage healing and protection meters out of pvp while we are at it...and those silly medal thingies, well...

 

While you and your friends may have been poorly treated, it doesn't change the fact that if you aren't beating a boss you should take a look at everything you mentioned INCLUDING your DPS and HPS, this being a numbers vs numbers game and all.

 

Groups of super mega awesome players with inadequate DPS and HPS still don't down bosses until they have adequate amounts of each.

 

That said, THOSE players know this, show awareness of it and embrace it rather than run away from it.

 

P.S. No one in their right mind is going to manually wade through a combat log...that is what addons are for, yes?

Edited February 9, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[ShroudAlpha]

Yes most definitely I 100% support a combat log and or Group metric for performance.

 

As an Ops leader I need to know what the metrics are so we can address issues of poor performance.

 

Those that do not support metrics to measure performance are either concerned about their own performance or someone they know. The bottom line is if a player cant perform then the 7 other people deserve to know and make informed decisions based on the metric on how to address the deficiency.

 

Right now the situation is that people are measured on their HP's and on what gear they have achieved. Providing a metric allows skilled players to shine over the limitations of their gear.

[Akkalevil]

Only on training dummies - never on the field. It should be used as a tool to improve -your- performance not raise it up as a beating post for others. aka, you're underperforming, we need to kick you, it's your fault - look at me and look at you, type of thing. That is bad, and not needed.

 

I do however think, that every player should have access to a training zone, where they can practice rotations on their character and figure out which rotations are the most impactful and why (gear choices, talents etc).

Theory on dummies is a long way from real practice on boss. In fact, it's exactly the worse that could happen with a Recount : people bragging about a completely theorical number completely unrelated to real good play in real situation. That's much WORSE than an actual good Recount on the field.

[GOYAFIDO]

Its not pathetically easy at the nightmare level.

 

 

Seriously, you don't want a meter because why? Do you not want a gas gauge to tell you how much gas you have in your car? Do you enjoy having to spend a specific amount of extra time each day guessing how much gas is left in your tank when a simple meter could do that for you?

 

I mean really people.

 

Mhmm.

[mrcaptainpants]

I support a damage meter that shows you your own damage so you can work to improve. I do not support any kind of meter that shows you someone else's damage so that you can embarrass, insult, kick, or harrass them, or engage in other elitist behavior.

 

Yes, I know, some people get frustrated with bad players. Tough. This isn't a major league sports team with millions of dollars on the line where someone making a mistake can dramatically affect your life. This is a game. Its none of your business if another player isn't putting out as much damage or healing as you think they should. If they are playing to the best of their ability then they can do no more. If they are capable of better performance, though, a personal damage meter will begin to teach them that, especially when they hear what kinds of numbers other players are putting out.

 

I understand that people want to be able to quickly identify problem performers and weed them out. People need to stop putting their desire to feel accomplishment in a video game over the need for people to be treated like human beings. Get a grip. And some perspective.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Yvin
language

[GeoLager]

Meters lead to better balancing.

 

 

People who don't want meters are too lazy to learn their class or want to do the least amount of effort.

[CygnisJunior]

Yes please!

[Bigtarr]

I'm in favor of good GUI for combat logs.

[Betraymodex]

As an officer of the top raiding guild on my Server, I can say that having no combat logg or dps/healing meter sure does make recruitment difficult, even nearly 2months into the game we are still asking for previous MMO experience and proof of skilled game play (wow loggs etc).

 

Please give us a way to determine if a player is doing it right, it would also be great for optimising setups in accordance with class vs class dps.

 

Lyra

[Navakai]

Scariest part to all of this, SWTOR *had* a combat log, and it was taken out because the performance was terrible.

 

 

Start praying they can work out their **** and get a functional combat log in the game first... I'm not sure if it's hilarious, or sad that we don't have one, but I wouldn't put my money on getting one. I'ts been stated 'yes' , but I haven't seen anything about it in future notes have you?

 

 

I thought it was suicide launching the game without a combat log....

[TheSkate]

You don't need meters to play SWTOR.

This isn't WoW. I know lots of whiners wish it was "WoW with light sabers" but it isn't.

 

The entire game has been beaten without meters of any kind available. Heroic Mode and Nightmare Mode included.

 

But, but, but... without meters? I mean I'm not min/maxed so that isn't possible is it?

Of course it is. Why? Because meters are not needed in this game.

 

The people that have already beaten all modes did not need meters, I do not need meters, and you do not NEED meters.

 

Wanted by few, hated by many. Recount.

Edited February 10, 2012 by TheSkate

[CainCypherus]

You don't need meters to play SWTOR.

This isn't WoW. I know lots of whiners wish it was "WoW with light sabers" but it isn't.

 

The entire game has been beaten without meters of any kind available. Heroic Mode and Nightmare Mode included.

 

But, but, but... without meters? I mean I'm not min/maxed so that isn't possible is it?

Of course it is. Why? Because meters are not needed in this game.

 

The people that have already beaten all modes did not need meters, I do not need meters, and you do not NEED meters.

 

Wanted by few, hated by many. Recount.

 

QFT!

[Lerthan]

Meters lead to better balancing.

 

 

People who don't want meters are too lazy to learn their class or want to do the least amount of effort.

 

Wrong. A lot of us don't want the negatives that come with the meter. Sorry as the top dps in my guild all of BC, 90% of wrath till my class got the nerf bat. I hate the D-Bag attitudes that come from folks using the meters.

 

Secondly the meters lead to poor encounter design. I want encounters that are challenging not because the raid dint do enough dps but because of the mechanics of the fight. Any encounter that is made challenging by the fact that you have do x amount of dps in x amount of time is boring, Uninspired, and poorer for it.

 

Sorry but I don't want encounters where all I do is stand behind the boss and hit a rotation of 3 buttons because i get max dps from those three buttons. That's a no effort fight, yes I get a lot of reading done in those fights but I want to actually have to pay attention to the game not some book.

 

Thirdly as has been stated numerous times, all content has been cleared without the meters. Its not necessary to have them in order to succeed at this game.

[GOYAFIDO]

We have thousands upon thousands of posts that pretty much boil down to:

 

1.) Recount is good because it allows us to measure and analyze important numbers and other data to improve our game play. This is harmless from a logical point of view.

 

2.) Recount is bad because it will be just another way for people whose ego's are driven by those same numbers and data to treat the protesters, who are ALSO driven by ego, badly, thus hurting the feelings of the protesters. This is harmful from an emotional point of view, for the protesters at least, as not everyone is as sensitive as they are.

 

Now go back and read those again, really.

 

#1 Is a logical position. #2 is an emotional position driven by ego on the part of the PROTESTERS, MANY of whom are behaving in EXACTLY the insulting, demeaning manner to the pro-recount people they SAY they so dislike receiving from others.

 

There is no integrity in position #2 as it is basically an emotional, "I don't want you to tell ME how to play, but it's okay if I don't want YOU to have recount so you can play YOUR way."

 

#2 IS...#2...it's just "nanny nanny boo boo stick your head in doo doo" in disguise.

[GOYAFIDO]

Wrong. A lot of us don't want the negatives that come with the meter. Sorry as the top dps in my guild all of BC, 90% of wrath till my class got the nerf bat. I hate the D-Bag attitudes that come from folks using the meters.

 

Secondly the meters lead to poor encounter design. I want encounters that are challenging not because the raid dint do enough dps but because of the mechanics of the fight. Any encounter that is made challenging by the fact that you have do x amount of dps in x amount of time is boring, Uninspired, and poorer for it.

 

Sorry but I don't want encounters where all I do is stand behind the boss and hit a rotation of 3 buttons because i get max dps from those three buttons. That's a no effort fight, yes I get a lot of reading done in those fights but I want to actually have to pay attention to the game not some book.

 

Thirdly as has been stated numerous times, all content has been cleared without the meters. Its not necessary to have them in order to succeed at this game.

 

It would be nice to be not so reliant on meters and metrics, but this game like any MMO similar to it, is a numbers game, there is NO escape from that. Enrage and other timers, for example, are mostly used as gear gateways, which is good because it keeps players who really shouldn't be doing an encounter from wasting their time on it. Take the numbers out and all that is left is the choreography of "the dance", the rhythm and timing all of which can be affected by connection lag, native talent, communication, focus and knowledge.

 

More "dance" requires much more study than DPS. DPS in and of itself is relatively simple in most cases but hard data helps turn theories into measured quantified facts. The more an encounter requires that everyone be up to speed on the encounter, where tighter rhythm and maneuver are required, the more the possibility that otherwise "small" errors are now big errors and cause more wipes.

 

One of the reasons for global cooldowns: Some people are better and faster than other people. This applies in doing boss encounters as well. The people best equipped to take down a boss are also the people most likely to want and use metrics: They are focused on beating the content and want to do the best they can so they get numbers and develop strategies. The people who come after and do a cookie cutter walkthough developed through someone else's long hours and hard work are the ones more likely to say, "we don need no steenkeeng metrics." If no one really needed to make those efforts in the first place then the encounter is perhaps far too easy?

 

The real protest against a recount type meter seems to come from casual raider types who have as much ego invested JUST in not getting their sensitive feelings hurt as they accuse more hardcore players of having in wanting a recount meter JUST so they can wave their epeens around, which is foolish and arrogant, the very things of which they accuse epeeners considering most players want the data so they can improve their game play.

 

P.S. Lerthan, it's always easy to point out what we think is wrong but it is much more difficult to offer truly viable alternatives: In that spirit, what suggestions would you make to improve the encounter design process?

Edited February 10, 2012 by GOYAFIDO