Syas Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I was definetley a little under-leveled for the flashpoint. I had just unlocked it that level but the Guardian drops I got were lvl 25 Right, that is what I am saying. It isn't fair to lay the blame solely on the healer. You required extra attention due to being under-levelled and (again) I feel Sage has a better toolbox in the 20-30 range for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightsorrow Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 That group is annoying, but actually quite easy. With good target focues it is no problem. The trick is, they cannot be taunted, or CC'ed, so basicly, everyone needs to be able to look after themselves, to an extent. If you have problems with this fight, it is actually quite likely that it's the dps "fault" (I use the word in an extremly lose term), since the fight easily breaks down into a dps race of "who can kill who first". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syas Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 That group is annoying, but actually quite easy. With good target focues it is no problem. The trick is, they cannot be taunted, or CC'ed, so basicly, everyone needs to be able to look after themselves, to an extent. They can be CC'd now, they patched it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kesayo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. So what you're saying is that whenever you die, you think it's the healer's fault because he wasn't healing enough? That's the typical logic that every 7th grade MMO WoW player gives for why they wiped. While that may be true sometimes, it usually isn't. Healing is not all that complicated. If all he had to do was spam all of his heals on you, anyone with half a brain should be able to manage that. Whenever the tank dies and I'm the main healer healing the tank, it's usually because of a bad pull or not enough CC, or some idiot breaks CC. Either the tank is taking too much damage (due to too many mobs or poor gear) or aggro is bouncing all over and I'm trying to heal the whole party at once (due to bad tanking) or I'm getting sniped by range and have to keep healing myself or keep getting interrupted (again due to bad tanking). It's almost never because I'm not pressing the heal buttons fast enough because I'm too busy picking my nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DevonLoy Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 So what you're saying is that whenever you die, you think it's the healer's fault because he wasn't healing enough? That's the typical logic that every 7th grade MMO WoW player gives for why they wiped. While that may be true sometimes, it usually isn't. Healing is not all that complicated. If all he had to do was spam all of his heals on you, anyone with half a brain should be able to manage that. Whenever the tank dies and I'm the main healer healing the tank, it's usually because of a bad pull or not enough CC, or some idiot breaks CC. Either the tank is taking too much damage (due to too many mobs or poor gear) or aggro is bouncing all over and I'm trying to heal the whole party at once (due to bad tanking) or I'm getting sniped by range and have to keep healing myself or keep getting interrupted (again due to bad tanking). It's almost never because I'm not pressing the heal buttons fast enough because I'm too busy picking my nose. Ok one you took that reply completly out of context (this whole threas was me asking OTHER people what they thought on the situation. Two, this thread has already been 13 pages of intelligent conversation on the subject. Read the whole thread before you post a disprovement of one sentence on the OP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leohat Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 There are a number things that I want to respond to (aka rant about) The recommended level for Mraiders is 25. So a level 22 tank is under leveled. That fight is doable but with a under leveled tank Crowd Control is MANDATORY. As in, a requirement. Coming from that other MMO, the last time I saw ANYTHING marked or focus fired was in freak'n Karazan for the Mouros fight and even that became rare as gear lvl increased. I don't think that new/younger MMO players even know what marking, focus fire or CC even IS. Let alone how to it. It takes vastly less time to mark targets and do it right the first time than it does to wipe and run back. Tanks or off tanks picking up adds? Oh man, that funny. Oh you're serious? Let me laugh even harder. Seriously, the healer should almost never have mobs on him. If the healer has mobs on him, either it is part of the mechanic of the fight (not applicable in this case) or the tank or off tank is not doing their job. Period. End of sentence. Amen. One minute plus per, on the boarding party fight? No wonder you are getting roflstomped. Your group DPS sucks rocks. Focus Fire is your friend. Repeat, Focus Fire is your friend. No way should that fight be taking 4 minutes plus. I'm mostly against DPS meters but I'll admit that they are somewhat useful at the progression raiding level. They are grossly misused at the instance/heroic level. If someone came up with a way to prevent abuse, I would be more in favor of them. I think that the meters should not show absolute numbers but a color code against group average as well as against server average for that boss. Meters against trash should be right the hell out. I'm also divided on a LFG tool. On one hand, I think that it can be a useful tool, on the other hand, it is also ripe for abuse. At a minimum , it should be restricted to server only. TL;DR- Learn to read. Get off my lawn. Mind the gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sengel Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Problem would be solved with combat logs/meters. Just sayin Or thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Templeman Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Problem would be solved with combat logs/meters. Just sayin Ummm I don't think that is true in this case. You can have all the logs in the world read them and see that DPS is on top of his game, heals are going as fast as they can, and tank has all the right aggro and still not understand why you lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafkin Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I tanked it as a jugg before they patched and made some of them cc'able. Not without some wipes but stil...doesn't sound like it was the healer. Although if you replaced the healer and cleared it then maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeblesTV Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This game requires CC. Use it. Also the dogs in MR are very nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Actually the healer can't carry people in this game . Which basicly mean if DPS take alot of damage for any reason we can't compensate for it 90% of the time disregarding how good we are. Swtor is about Teamwork and the sooner people realise that the better Edited January 17, 2012 by Varghjerta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your_dominus Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) my question is, why are you tanking 4 guys? is no one CCing any of them? I know at least troopers/BH and Sage/Sorc have a long term CC ability. Why are you not using that? This. In your opening post OP, my first thought was why are you tanking 4 or 5 golds? OP, It is not simply your job, to hold agro. It's also your job to activly mitigate damage. You should be spec'd, and geared correctly to facilitate both, and tank to facilitate both. Too much damage= an oom, or at the very least a flustered healer. CC should be used on large-ish gold pulls. This isn't WoW. We don't go in guns blazing aoeing it down. And dps should be focusing so as to drop mobs quickly. ( Thats the other thing that can break pulls, is retarded dps that play eenie meenie miney mo and dps what THEY choose. They are there to dps YOUR targets.) Not to mention when dps " tank" mobs they are making the healer heal them. It's just bad play. Dps can, and should be anhilating regs, and silvers on their own will. But NOT golds. If they want to play " pick the random mob", let them eat agro and die, then tell em that's what happens when you don't assist me Edited January 17, 2012 by Your_dominus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arezael Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm looking at your post in which you stated the respective levels of the group, and if there aren't any typos or other similar errors in the information given then the clear problem centres around the Sentinel. Before I really go into it, I am assuming your primary objective was to win with your group, and not something more esoteric along the lines of RPing a Flashpoint. (Trying to RP as 22 Tank for this just for the sake of RP would be ill advised with higher levels around). That being said I remember doing this Flashpoint solo at level 35, just to clear it for the first time from my Mission log (I don't abandon quests, that's my own personal choice). I should point out solo = Qyzen Fess and I in this case. I'm a healing Jedi Sage, with the only proviso being I took the 2 extra Ability points into Damage mitigation from the Balance tier 1 tree, I forget the name now. As per usual, entering new missions tends to be accompanied by making a lot of precautionary measures. In this case at level 35 Mandalorian Raiders becomes too weak for any job class, save some of the boss type encounters towards the end, which becomes light healing-able. I recall the fight you're talking about with the boarding party, and Qyzen face tanked them all simultaneously. He took a fair amount of damage in his good but not super duper gear, and if a 36 sentinel and any reasonable healer can't kill them you have an issue. I didn't bother with tactics because they simply aren't needed at that stage, but even so, I expect any competent player level 36 to be able to solo this FP. I am new to all this, but I believe the term I see being used is 'faceroll' to describe the difficulty 35+. And no, I'm not trolling, although I do apologise for the wall of text and my not native level of English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zazlow Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 use more CC or focus down the correct mobs. This ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorin_Sargothi Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I know that their aren't very many tanks in this game. I've met a few others but there about as rare as healers. Now I'm a tank (and one of the already few that tank specs) and it jerks my chain when I'm tanking a run on Mandalorian Raiders. I tank all the way to the 4 man boarding party. I die while tanking 3 to all 4 of them through the whole fight, while being healed, and we wipe. This of course makes the healer mad and he gets mad at me for not keeping them off him. So he up and leaves. (we got another one and completed the flashpoint but that's not the story here.) Now I know from past MMO experience, that if the Tank dies and you wipe, usually it means that the Tank was holding enough damage to drop him quickly (me in this case) and the healer did not heal enough. So my question is. Should I try and Tank less of a fight in order to make it easier on the healer, or should I just start looking for better healers. I need some tips here, If it's me I need to know, but if it's not me please help. EDIT (forgot to ask if it could just be the game) Obviously you need more crowd control. Next time, pay more attention to your group makeup. And ask if the players know how to use their cc abilities. Also, Blah blah blah wrathbabbies cata sux blah blah blah l2p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestorrThews Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You are aware that this fight requires a Tactic? Did it ever occur to either you or the Healer that a message flashes across the screen after one raiding party member dies that the other get stronger!! So pick your target and the order you kill them wisely and use CC, that fight is not meant to be tanked by one tank alone.... Neviva Thes Sage Healer Baren'thor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsyloSatan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sounds to me like a ton of people in this thread have no idea what they are talkin about really. You didnt see the combat log and heard one side of the story. TL;DR ---> We need a combat log in this game. Do it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palathas Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have an Operative Healer and I usually have no real problems if I pull agro. Operatives get an Agro shedding ability and they also have a bunch of short term stuns or blinding abilities. If you are pulling agro because of Heal spikes then use your HoTs or channelled heals to drop a bit of agro. Not sure what other CC abilities or agro control abilities the other classes get, I imagine the Scoundrel wouldn't be too much different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sai-to Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sounds to me like a ton of people in this thread have no idea what they are talkin about really. You didnt see the combat log and heard one side of the story. TL;DR ---> We need a combat log in this game. Do it now. Combat log would have done jack in this situation. Besides, he already established it was the healer's fault. He did it again with a different healer and the same strategy and completed it. All without a log. Not saying it's not useful to have a parser (they're great tools)... but that might eventually lead to real-time meters, which are a horrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satpolpp Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 It's a classic mmo problem with cookie cutter mmo solution. Either : - Tank is not geared enough to generate enough threat - DPSes being stupid by not focusing - Incompetent healer - Lack of understanding of pull mechanics - Lack of knowledge on boss fights It boils down to all those 5 points. Pick which one is appropriate to your case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake_Hound Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Tips , well do remember , there is only a certain amount of energy heat ammo force . So don´t expect most average healers to sustain you trough 10 min of fight . 2nd most healers are not used to the stress anymore of spike damage . The numbers of good healers I encountered in all my flashpoints ... Well lets say I can count on my two hands . 3rd the problems are healers with a big mouth , those are infact the worst . They try to hide there own failure with big words , just ignore them cause they aren´t really worth while . 4th as tank you can easily notice if healing is good enough or bad , with trashmob pulls. You can survive the dogs and keep aggro on all without the healer letting you die. During Mandolorian raiders , you know you got a good healer . 5th as tank if you are tanking 3 then make sure you are tabbing trough all 3 .. watch the healers health . if it is low tell them to heal themself !! Cause I notice in SWTOR too many healers don´t heal themselfs . Thus causing a lot of wipes . 6th if it is not a great healer , try alternative tactics like CC , interrupts and stuns or freeze, to minimise the big spike or hardhitting blows . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosblade Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I just love it when the tank just runs in to any and everything so you end up trying to heal ALL and you cant.. and then the tank keeps going with almost no health and ..yep duh healers fault haha.. If you work as a TEAM.. try not to think YOUR IT... its all YOU.. its not, without the rest you get smashed every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SsQNemrod Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 In addition to the long lasting CC people should also use their 4 second stuns and interrupts. Good thing there is no recount so nobody can brag about their DPS while having completely forgotten to use his full arsenal of abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimwulf Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 use more CC or focus down the correct mobs. I am also a tank and have no problems when we plan out a difficult fight before the pull. This. The game does not suffer fools gladly. Play smart. Oh, and if the reason why the Healer couldn't keep you from wiping is because he kept pulling aggro, then some combination of three things happened. 1) You didn't properly hold threat, if he was pulling one of your mobs off. 2) He didn't watch his threat because he over healed DPS - common mistake in new healers. 3) No one acted as 'off' tank and pulled the healers mob off. Now, I have no problem using my CC to trap a loose mob, but if it is on cool down because someone just broke it, then I'll need some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzybob Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 im a merc healer and ran into some good tanks but more bad tanks, for some reason alot of "tanks" dont want to pull the mobs away from cc'ed mobs then use aoe's breaking the cc on mobs then the now un cc'ed mobs run right to me. the "tank" who is busy thinking hes doing a great job and not getting any mobs off me the healer even thou im in party chat saying i have one to 3 mobs on me he just sits there being a "great tank". then complains about my bad healing when we wipe, so i leave group and put the "great tank" on ignore so pretty much there are two options here 1. your a bad tank 2. your a bad tank that thinks hes a good tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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