Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Marasme]

I it worked like LFG from TBC (wow) I'd more than happy to see it implemented.

 

No cross-server pls, it results in starting treating ppl like dirt

[AeonWeapon]

If cross server had some sort of friends list and a function to be able to go with those friends on x-server ops it may even bring the entire community together more and not just the server-side community.

 

If it doesn't, it's just a tool to get gear faster.

 

I agree that there is very much a need for cross server friends list and cross server global chat names, like I described is in city of heroes.

 

Though I see your point about "If it doesn't, it's just a tool to get gear faster" and see how SOME people think that way, personally, it's not just about the gear for me... it's about being able to PLAY the content. I have fun playing, it's not just about the rewards for me, it's about the experience leading to the rewards, seeing the story, playing and having fun.

[AeonWeapon]

You sir is the reason why I made the guide in my signature. Even through the tool is crude it can work once people start using it. Tell me if you log in right now and search in the who window and see 8 people looking for the flashpoint you want to go to (2 tanks, 1 healer and 5 dps) wouldn't you invite them and go now? Or would you prefer to type "Healer LFG BT HM" or something?

 

The current tool can search your current planet/area or the entire game, every planet, every station, even Warzones and Flashpoints. You just need to learn how if you don't already and use it. Read the guide linked in my signature and spread awareness to your server.

 

 

Instead of advertising in General Chat... Advertise in General Chat AND use the Tool.

 

Dude... I list myself in the stupid tool while I'm shouting in general... does nothing. Usually there's 1 or 2 other people flagged in /who, so most people aren't even aware of the damn thing. Yes I use it, but it doesn't help... at all.

[AeonWeapon]

I it worked like LFG from TBC (wow) I'd more than happy to see it implemented.

 

No cross-server pls, it results in starting treating ppl like dirt

 

I'm starting to see the problem with WoW LFD tool... they implemented it without cross-server chat and cross-server friends list, then thought about that later.

 

Maybe you people are right that it might lead some people to act like jerks when there's no way to connect and you won't see those people again, though I find it hard to believe this "everyone is out to get me" paranoid talk.

 

I think things would be alot different if an LFG tool were implemented from day one with cross server chat and friends. People would want to make friends in cross server flashpoints, to get a pool of friends to team with regularly for FPs and Ops.

[Umbral]

I suggest while you wait for the holy grail of LFG encourage the current game population to use what is available. I'm not saying don't advertise in General or player created LFG Channel, just advertise in the current LFG Tool ALSO.

 

It's like advertising in business. Don't just use Billboards, use Radio, TV & Newspapers.

 

My Signature has the link to a guide of how to effectively use the current LFG Tool. There are a lot of people that just don't know how to.

Just what makes you think that people haven't been using it, or don't know how to use it?

 

That no one uses it?

 

No one uses it because it's a very poor design, and not what people want.

 

Players want a cross -server LFG tool. They're saying it here, and there's absolutely no way that BW doesn't know that they're screaming it in game. Over and over. Players are extremely frustrated about how hard it is to get groups together. Many have given up trying altogether. If BW doesn't know that, then they definitely don't have people in-game monitoring general chat at fleet on enough servers.

[Marasme]

Maybe you people are right that it might lead some people to act like jerks when there's no way to connect and you won't see those people again, though I find it hard to believe this "everyone is out to get me" paranoid talk.

.

 

I was also thinking about players leaving after something dropped for them or leaving in the middle of a flashpoint (brb, g2g, hf lol).

 

If u have ever done LFR (smth like ops but cross-server) u'd know what I mean ;((

 

Please, lets stop behaving like animals and start respecting each other lol.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Marasme

[Umbral]

You dont get in faster or will be able to finish faster, than now. Thats an illusion

 

If we compare the LFG of wow to what you guys want at Tor, then we see.

 

1. Queue times of 40 min for DPS

2. Wipe´s at dungeons, so that it can take easily 1 or 2 hours to finish them - most pugs just disband.

3. Random kicks

 

In the end you wait longer, need longer and dont have a good group. I fail to understand how this can be an improvement.

You're obviously talking theory in your mind. I just spent a year playing WoW and my dps character rarely had to spend more than 10 minutes waiting in que, with the added advantage of being able to go out into the game world while I waited. Runs generally went smoothly and were done in around 30 to 40 minutes. If a player dropped or was kicked most often the replacement was almost instant. Please don't try to BS people that actually play mmos (as opposed to those that just take up space in them), and use the modern tools available. Thanks.

[AeonWeapon]

with the added advantage of being able to go out into the game world while I waited.

 

This is a big thing for me...

 

Waiting for a team wouldn't be so bad if I knew I was in a queue and would eventually get a team, and I could go do something else while I waited, instead of standing around.

[Umbral]

What ever the solution is, I don't want it to ruin the in game experience by allowing people to be rude without any consquences. Having been in that other MMO for over six years, I can say a HUGE part of my leaving and my wife leaving was the rude community where people did what ever they wanted because they knew chances were they would never see you again.

 

So you waited in the LFG for over 20 minutes only to have rude people ruin your evening.

 

Before the cross-server finder this rarely if ever happened because everyone got to know who was rude and never grouped with those people. Players also knew they had to be nice if they wanted people to treat them nicely.

 

I would rather they join small pop servers before they allow cross server grouping.

 

my two cents....

There are no "consequences". The only "consequence" that has any effect is a group vote kick system. There is no server policing itself. There is no social pressure. There is none of the manure about there being a deterrent to jerks out there beyond a group vote kick system. The rest is all fantasy from people's heads. It's all theory that people think should prove sound in practice, but simply doesn't work, and never has in any game.

 

Just because someone is from your sever doesn't mean they won't be jerks, or rude, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about them being so beyond putting hem on ignore.

 

This isn't about low pop servers either. I'm on what has to be one of the highest pop servers, and people are having just as hard a a time finding groups.

[acheros]

I was also thinking about players leaving after something dropped for them or leaving in the middle of a flashpoint (brb, g2g, hf lol).

 

If u have ever done LFR (smth like ops but cross-server) u'd know what I mean ;((

 

Please, lets stop behaving like animals and start respecting each other lol.

 

Pssst, I'm gonna tell you a secret..C'mere..Closer...Closer...

 

 

that, already, happens!

[Vitiock]

There are no "consequences". The only "consequence" that has any effect is a group vote kick system. There is no server policing itself. There is no social pressure. There is none of the manure about there being a deterrent to jerks out there beyond a group vote kick system. The rest is all fantasy from people's heads. It's all theory that people think should prove sound in practice, but simply doesn't work, and never has in any game.

 

Just because someone is from your sever doesn't mean they won't be jerks, or rude, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about them being so beyond putting hem on ignore.

 

This isn't about low pop servers either. I'm on what has to be one of the highest pop servers, and people are having just as hard a a time finding groups.

 

Um ignoring people and not grouping with them when you have a limited population definately does have an effect on the community by their perception. Lets assume that at peak times 350k people are playing tor total (this was given by some analyst lets assume it's correct). Lets assume that a low % of people are trolls/ninjas, say 1%, and that your average modest server has 1k people play concurrently during peak.

 

Now troll/ninja wise cross server we have 3500 and 10 on your server (yes this is low) now you ignore 1 person, your chances of grouping with a troll/ninja local server wise went down by 1/10 chance, where cross server it went down 1/3500 or barely any.

 

Now lets look at it from another angle and say that 10% of your population is tanks on local thats about 100 people concurrent and cross server 35000, now you're a troll and you get ignored by a tank and can't group with him, your potential tanks just went down 1% cross server it went down .00002857 or hardly even noticeable. Lets say you get ignored by a tank on a weekly basis and lose them for grouping, thats 52 tanks or roughly half of your server not gruoping with you in a year, cross server that 1.5%.

 

The difference in population in weeding out people you don't want to play with is huge, and opening that up to cross server severely changes the amount of hurt someone feels for being a dick, it doesn't take the community working together to blackball someone, that persons own interactions will cause single people to ignore them and that will add up over and over again and it will add up to quite a difference for that person.

[Touchbass]

Um ignoring people and not grouping with them when you have a limited population definately does have an effect on the community by their perception. Lets assume ....

 

 

*SNIP*

cross server that 1.5%.

 

The difference in population

feels for being a dick,

 

*SNIP*

ignore them

will add up to quite a difference

.

 

I honestly appreciate you trying to make sense of the issue with numbers but those are completely convoluted and unfactual. You can't just thrown random numbers at a complicated issue (did you study in the humanities?) and support it with opinions.

[Umbral]

Um ignoring people and not grouping with them when you have a limited population definately does have an effect on the community by their perception. Lets assume that at peak times 350k people are playing tor total (this was given by some analyst lets assume it's correct). Lets assume that a low % of people are trolls/ninjas, say 1%, and that your average modest server has 1k people play concurrently during peak.

 

Now troll/ninja wise cross server we have 3500 and 10 on your server (yes this is low) now you ignore 1 person, your chances of grouping with a troll/ninja local server wise went down by 1/10 chance, where cross server it went down 1/3500 or barely any.

 

Now lets look at it from another angle and say that 10% of your population is tanks on local thats about 100 people concurrent and cross server 35000, now you're a troll and you get ignored by a tank and can't group with him, your potential tanks just went down 1% cross server it went down .00002857 or hardly even noticeable. Lets say you get ignored by a tank on a weekly basis and lose them for grouping, thats 52 tanks or roughly half of your server not gruoping with you in a year, cross server that 1.5%.

 

The difference in population in weeding out people you don't want to play with is huge, and opening that up to cross server severely changes the amount of hurt someone feels for being a dick, it doesn't take the community working together to blackball someone, that persons own interactions will cause single people to ignore them and that will add up over and over again and it will add up to quite a difference for that person.

Adding an ignore to the cross-server eliminates the chance of you grouping with that person altogether. Not to mention that with no cross server tool every time you put a player on ignore you decrease the player pool on your server. Furthermore, these types very rarely play solitaire. You can bet that they have friends, and it is a two way street. Pretty soon it's you that's not getting the invite because the jerk is with a buddy or two and recognizes your name.

 

The other element that gets washed over by the 'anti cross-server" bunch is that if jerks, ninjas, etc etc are ever going to "learn their lessons" (which they will rarely do anyway), they'll do so much faster with a cross-server tool. It's pretty easy for that type to rationalize out that they're "just on a server full of holier than thous" or some such, but when they're repeatedly getting kicked out of groups from all servers, the message tends to sink in.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Umbral

[Vitiock]

I honestly appreciate you trying to make sense of the issue with numbers but those are completely convoluted and unfactual. You can't just thrown random numbers at a complicated issue (did you study in the humanities?) and support it with opinions.

 

Yes the numbers arn't exact, but do you deny that if you have a larger population to select from the ignoring of 1 member or being ignored by 1 member wont have a smaller impact than if you had a smaller population?

[Vitiock]

Adding an ignore to the cross-server eliminates the chance of you grouping with that person altogether. Not to mention that with no cross server tool every time you put a player on ignore you decrease the player pool on your server. Furthermore, these types very rarely play solitaire. You can bet that they have friends, and it is a two way street. Pretty soon it's you that's not getting the invite because the jerk is with a buddy or two and recognizes your name.

 

The other element that gets washed over by the 'anti cross-server" bunch is that if jerks, ninjas, etc etc are ever going to "learn their lessons" (which they will rarely do anyway), they'll do so much faster with a cross-server tool. It's pretty easy for that type to rationalize out that they're "just on a server full of holier than thous" or some such, but when they're repeatedly getting kicked out of groups from all servers, the message tends to sink in.

 

This isn't about that 1 person, it's a numbers game. If the population is smaller blocking 1 jerk reduces my chances of being places with jerks by a much larger margin than if the population is larger. There are always going to be jerks and there is nothing you can do about it, the difference is, with local server you have a much smaller number of jerks where cross server it seems like you have an endless sea of them and you have to block many more than self server to get the same reduction in frequency.

[Touchbass]

One thing that I've been hearing and witnessing is a lack of server identity and punishment. People are already acting like random *******es in game to each other, the only thing you can do to hurt punish them :

 

• Don't group with them for Raids/Dungeons
   
  
• Don't purchase their goods on the market
   
  
• Call them out for ******ery in /trade when they speak
   
  
• Randomly message them disparaging remarks
   
  
• Tarnish their reputation
   
  
• Lack of invites to guilds
  

Now: This is why the above is highly ineffective in a modern MMORPG

 

1) The genre has changed from the 'Raid or Die' mentality to something where a significant portion of the population doesn't engage in serious end game raiding.

 

2) People can post their goods on alts

 

3) Name change services can reverse "reputation"

 

4) It takes 5 /days of played time to reach max level for anyone serious about a do over and modern MMORPG's allow catch up very quickly at max level

 

5) People don't require guilds anymore to enjoy the game, in fact people don't really "need" anyone anymore in MMORPG's

 

6) You can't "scare off" players yourselves, Bioware will ban you for harrassment

 

7) It's almost impossible to validate a serious claim, I've seen in SWTOR people being called ninja's in /fleet and literally they were laughed at for trying to cause a ban across the board on a certain player.

 

8) You can still queue for Warzones despite your reputation, probably another automated grouping feature coming out for regular dungeons

 

9) Too many players to keep track of everyone

 

Thoughts?

[Touchbass]

Yes the numbers arn't exact, but do you deny that if you have a larger population to select from the ignoring of 1 member or being ignored by 1 member wont have a smaller impact than if you had a smaller population?

 

That's a Straw man. Listen I get what you are getting at, I've made a post to open discussion and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on personal reputation and it's impact in modern western MMORPG's

 

I was just being general so if you want we can disregard my post and you can lead with your thoughts, cheers!

Edited January 24, 2012 by Touchbass

[Sendrel]

This isn't about that 1 person, it's a numbers game. If the population is smaller blocking 1 jerk reduces my chances of being places with jerks by a much larger margin than if the population is larger. There are always going to be jerks and there is nothing you can do about it, the difference is, with local server you have a much smaller number of jerks where cross server it seems like you have an endless sea of them and you have to block many more than self server to get the same reduction in frequency.

 

The percentages are the same. Your chances of getting grouped with someone undesirable is no greater or less with or without an LFD.

 

It sounds like you're more interested in making sure that the offending parties are punished for bad behavior and then associating same server only LFD's as being capable of doling out that punishment. Couple things with that: 1) Blacklists and servers policing themselves are a myth. The guy who pissed you off in the run 2 hours ago? Yeah, except in the most egregious cases, he's not having any trouble getting a group going forward. And 2) its really not your place to punish people in game beyond just not grouping with them again.

 

I think what drives a lot of the 'servers will police themselves with same server LFD' rhetoric is a desire to see people punished and its just so juvenile. Put the guy on ignore and move on - that's the best, most realistic outcome you can hope for.

[Vitiock]

One thing that I've been hearing and witnessing is a lack of server identity and punishment. People are already acting like random *******es in game to each other, the only thing you can do to hurt punish them :

 

• Don't group with them for Raids/Dungeons
   
  
• Don't purchase their goods on the market
   
  
• Call them out for ******ery in /trade when they speak
   
  
• Randomly message them disparaging remarks
   
  
• Tarnish their reputation
   
  
• Lack of invites to guilds
  

Now: This is why the above is highly ineffective in a modern MMORPG

 

1) The genre has changed from the 'Raid or Die' mentality to something where a significant portion of the population doesn't engage in serious end game raiding.

 

2) People can post their goods on alts

 

3) Name change services can reverse "reputation"

 

4) It takes 5 /days of played time to reach max level for anyone serious about a do over and modern MMORPG's allow catch up very quickly at max level

 

5) People don't require guilds anymore to enjoy the game, in fact people don't really "need" anyone anymore in MMORPG's

 

6) You can't "scare off" players yourselves, Bioware will ban you for harrassment

 

7) It's almost impossible to validate a serious claim, I've seen in SWTOR people being called ninja's in /fleet and literally they were laughed at for trying to cause a ban across the board on a certain player.

 

8) You can still queue for Warzones despite your reputation, probably another automated grouping feature coming out for regular dungeons

 

9) Too many players to keep track of everyone

 

Thoughts?

 

1) While it's not a raid or die situation, and we have many cliques, these still tend to be self regulating on a server by server basis from my experience in wow. While certain people were known to be jerks they often were not included in the more friendly raiding guilds and ninjas were pushed from the server. I assume people who grief in RP get the same from RP servers and other smaller cliques self regulate too.

 

2) The crafting stills currently arn't very useful and even if they were crafted goods state who they were created by so posting on an alt wouldn't help much if people chose to punish someone by not buying their stuff.

 

3) Name changes can reverse someones reputation, however in every mmo, ignore lists auto update with their new name, likewise if bioware wanted they could introduce a function to see someones previous names, like you can do with your steam friends. (this would help in the case of server merges too, just to find your friends)

 

4) Yes there really isn't much attachment rate with characters currently, however things like valor 60 and gear do take a bit longer and re-rolling does have some penalty to it, but in the end if someone is really set out to grief they are going to have some capability to do so.

 

5) Certain parts of the game still require guilds/groups maybe not to the extent of before but if you want to be a part of that you still have to be accepted by guilds/groups people playing solo and doing solo content usually arn't the ones complaining about people in groups being jerks.

 

6) Scaring people off really shouldn't be a priority of anyone, increasing their enjoyment of the game should be and simply ignoring that person and not grouping with them usually has that effect.

 

7) This has always been the case, one incident shouldn't ruin a game for someone, this also means ninja's/jerks can't get a bunch of their friends to get you blacklisted because you called them out, we don't want just 1 person to be able to do this. In general guilds will black list people however word does spread.

 

8) I am sure plenty of people who do pvp that wish they had a way to not queue with people they don't like such as people who just run around medal whoring or people who afk in the warzone, allowing people to not have to group with these people can only improve the community in my opinion.

 

9) This gets back to my point there are too many players especially when you open it up to cross server, some people might like that some people might not, really it should be a choice.

[Umbral]

After 12+ years playing mmos, with sooo many characters on soooo many different servers, I personally have found that the chances of finding good people to group with are much much greater with a cross-server lfg system.

 

Then again, the other thing I've found over that time? The people that are the most concerned with "punishing" other players, and the "social conditioning" of other players, etc etc?

 

Ya, in the end THEY are the ones you really want to avoid grouping with.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Umbral

[Neiloch]

There is no 'same server policing themselves.' I've seen people openly ridiculed in global/level chat channels for hours on several different days and they still manage to put together PUG's and PUR's in other MMO's.

 

I've yet to see a valid hypothesis let alone proof that x-server instantly makes people play like jerks outside of flimsy personal testimony. "This one time..." yes you are right, ONE TIME. If people were so inconsiderate that the x-LFD tool was nearly made unusable you might have a point but that has not happened. Fact of the matter is by your own admission even after these bad experiences YOU KEPT USING IT. Without even knowing it you have PROVEN that the benefits of x-LFD outweigh the negatives. (i'm not talking to any one person in particular)

 

I've already explained how a bad experience will stand out in peoples minds while they can't recall the several perfectly amiable or neutral runs that came after it. A small percentage of bad x-LFD experiences does not a strong case against x-LFD make.

[Vitiock]

The percentages are the same. Your chances of getting grouped with someone undesirable is no greater or less with or without an LFD.

 

It sounds like you're more interested in making sure that the offending parties are punished for bad behavior and then associating same server only LFD's as being capable of doling out that punishment. Couple things with that: 1) Blacklists and servers policing themselves are a myth. The guy who pissed you off in the run 2 hours ago? Yeah, except in the most egregious cases, he's not having any trouble getting a group going forward. And 2) its really not your place to punish people in game beyond just not grouping with them again.

 

I think what drives a lot of the 'servers will police themselves with same server LFD' rhetoric is a desire to see people punished and its just so juvenile. Put the guy on ignore and move on - that's the best, most realistic outcome you can hope for.

 

My point isn't that they should be punished my point is that I can more easily remove the group of people I don't wish to associate with in a lower population. I am not against LFD I would prefer that I have the option to queue local to my server though.

 

And yes percentages are the same ninja/jerk wise in the beginning but the effect of every person I ignore/blacklist is much grater when the population is lower than when the population is higher.

[Sendrel]

My point isn't that they should be punished my point is that I can more easily remove the group of people I don't wish to associate with in a lower population. I am not against LFD I would prefer that I have the option to queue local to my server though.

 

But you can't. You go on to agree in the very next sentence that the percentages are the same.

 

And yes percentages are the same ninja/jerk wise in the beginning but the effect of every person I ignore/blacklist is much grater when the population is lower than when the population is higher.

 

Because the percentages are the same, the amount of decent folks you run into will (in absolute numbers) also be greatly increased.

[Vitiock]

There is no 'same server policing themselves.' I've seen people openly ridiculed in global/level chat channels for hours on several different days and they still manage to put together PUG's and PUR's in other MMO's.

 

I've yet to see a valid hypothesis let alone proof that x-server instantly makes people play like jerks outside of flimsy personal testimony. "This one time..." yes you are right, ONE TIME. If people were so inconsiderate that the x-LFD tool was nearly made unusable you might have a point but that has not happened. Fact of the matter is by your own admission even after these bad experiences YOU KEPT USING IT. Without even knowing it you have PROVEN that the benefits of x-LFD outweigh the negatives. (i'm not talking to any one person in particular)

 

I've already explained how a bad experience will stand out in peoples minds while they can't recall the several perfectly amiable or neutral runs that came after it. A small percentage of bad x-LFD experiences does not a strong case against x-LFD make.

 

Why does it have to be black and white though, why can't people have both x-server and self server in a LF-flashpoint tool. Sure people who only group with people on the same server might have a longer queue but I don't think they will complain about that, and getting more people to queue can only mean faster queues for everyone right?

[Neiloch]

I have no problem with it being OPTIONAL.

 

My problem is with people who think x-server is some how inherently worse than same server which it simply isn't to argue against the x-server possibility.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Neiloch