Stop complaining about EXPERTISE

[Desgarden]

I think expertise is fine, people putting all their time into PvP should be better at it, simple as that. Everyone have the same possibilities to grind PvP gear.

 

I enjoy putting some time in to both PvP and PvE, I run some hardmodes and play some PvP inbetween FP groups. In my first week of lvl 50 I now have 7 Champion items and that's only from doing weekly and daily pvp quests + maybe 5 bags from commendations.

 

People ar starting to get battlemaster gear now and that's fine, I cant expect to be best in all aspects of the game, I know I could be up there competing if I'd like to, but as I said earlier I enjoy playing both PvE and PvP, again I can't expect to be best in PvP, same thing applies to PvE if I don't place all my time in to raiding, I wont be progressing as fast as full PvErs do, Im fine with all of this, why cant you guys be?

 

Sure they should have an edge in pvp, after all the pvers have an edge in, well, pve with their gear. However, "an edge" shouldn't be an "autokill". And I am sorry but when I am rolling in my nearly full champ gear I wreck those people without expertise all too easily.

[Coinkee]

I understand why they made TOR like they did. Also, I'm sure it will bring a decent return.

 

Bio/EA won't go bankrupt.

 

But when you steal a design without thinking and you don't care about your game with true passion, all you're ever going to be is second-rate.

 

That's fine, I suppose. But, as a player, I don't have time for second-rate.

 

I need a developer who is brave enough to educate the masses about what's REALLY fun - and not just meet expectations like casual gamers knew what was good for them.

 

We thought we had that YEARS ago when a few old UO players decided to recreate UO. First there was UO:X (Did that even get off the ground?) then Darkfall. Both flopped because it couldn't be managed.

 

The magic of the old school games we knew, loved, and played for years is sadly gone for good it seems. Either adjust.. play a niche MMO (Eve Online for pvpers) or give up on MMOs.

 

Bottom dollar is Bottom line. And the masses have spoken.

[Ashes_Arizona]

I'm not creatively ignoring it. You took the time to play that aspect of the game and got the gear for it.. He has not. You outgear him for pvp. He will have that magic helmet of +400 expertise as will everyone else in a month and you'll be back here whining that you want your Jugg buffed and everyone else nerfed.

 

Welcome to MMOs

 

Jugg's don't need a buff they need to be fixed theres a definitive difference between imbalance and outright bugged or unimplemented system dynamics which manage a classes resistance capabilities. But thats another discussion entirely.

 

The ending line "welcome to MMOs" is quite hilarious though because people like you always seem to assume that anyone that has a different opinion than you have must not understand MMOs at all, when its actually quite the opposite, we understand MMOs quite well and have been playing them since there were MMO's to play. I met my wife in Ultima Online way back in the day. Funny how that works out, and shes still a noob, its cute in its own way.

 

Just because "this is the way they did it WoW" is a quick answer doesn't mean its the right answer. Theres a reason people got bored with WoW and stopped subscribing.

 

BWA mimicking the model isn't going to help the title in the long term, in fact they stand to see a quicker decline than WoW has because they mimicked the model. Its a case of BTDT got the t-shirt, for most people.

 

Why would anyone spend a few years playing WoW, simply to come to TOR and do the exact same thing they did in WoW? I'm not saying a median level of similarity is bad, but if they can't deviate one iota from one and hope to be profitable, then how can they actually retain the client base thats already bored to tears with the cut and dried WoW model thats been copied and recopied by every game thats released since WoW came out?

 

There was a sci-fi game that had all kinds of new ideas in regards to its original development but had its entire development path scrapped and rebuilt into a sci-fi WoW clone, it was called Tabula Rasa, don't worry if you haven't heard of it, it didn't last long.

 

So what I'm basically saying is that BWA has built a good framework to get away from "this is how WoW did it" and expand on that and say "this is how WoW did it, but we're doing it a little bit differently." and that little bit of difference will be the way TOR can succeed in the long term.

 

People are bored with WoW, slavishly copying it in every respect will simply lead to people becoming bored with TOR even more quickly. Look at Rift, Trion talks a good game..but thats about all thats good in regards to their game. Copy WoW, you will blow up fast, and fall down hard, its happened to a lot of games since WoW came out, and until developers start thinking independently and offering up new ideas, it will continue to happen.

 

Hope it doesn't happen with TOR cause, well, if it does, it will appear that Lucas Arts backed the wrong horse and shut down the wrong license.

[Coinkee]

I've been playing MMOs since UO PreTram days.

 

I've seen the progression of them. Hell i've played almost every beta.. i even beta'd Horizons (that alone should tell you how much ive been looking for another UO type game HA!)

 

While you were writing your book I was responding to someone else. So scroll up and read that =P

 

Bed time!

[Ashes_Arizona]

Sure they should have an edge in pvp, after all the pvers have an edge in, well, pve with their gear. However, "an edge" shouldn't be an "autokill". And I am sorry but when I am rolling in my nearly full champ gear I wreck those people without expertise all too easily.

 

Hah I got a guy on Harbinger that I know cause we PvP a lot, hes an SI:S in full Champion gear and every time he sees my level 25 BHPT AP in a warzone he just goes somewhere else cause he knows I'll do my best to try to kill him if he attacks me, but he knows I can't win at all.

 

Hes a guy that fully understands there is no challenge in how Expertise works, so he'll generally run right by me to go after a level 50 on my team that has PvP gear on.

 

And generally I just let him do his thing and I do mine, if we're on seperate teams. Unfortunately not enough people like you and him are willing to admit what a crutch Expertise is. I expect a lot of people that are heavily defending Expertise wouldn't PvP at all without it. Though I can only say that is a suspicion backed without facts.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Ashes_Arizona

[Hamstaxo]

This is an MMO and a gear grind is necessary to keep people playing in PvP as well as PvE

 

simply wrong

there are much better ways to do this

kick expertise out, make the raids doable for everybody and connect the valorranks to an skillsystem

 

so the only thing left for complaining is "thats unfair they play much more pvp than i do and have higher valorranks. how am i supposed to win"

 

the crying will never stop

[NutellaCrepe]

I personally would quit the game if I was not advancing my character in any way. Why don't you go play a fighting game or a first person shooter or some other online gearless PvP game? It seems MMOs aren't your thing.

 

I agree with the argument that the person who plays the most should not have the gear advantage. The solution to this is a Rated ladder system like arena in WoW. I'm not saying this game needs a deathmatch arena, but a ranked system which increases when your team wins and decreases when your team loses. Once you hit a certain rank, better gear becomes available to you. This way gear is awarded based on skill not time invested

 

What about if expertise didn't matter in warzones, just world PvP?

[birdyhey]

SCREW EXPERTISE/RESILIENCE BULLSH*IT! MAKE PVP ABOUT SKILL and for godsake reward something else than gear with expertise just so you can have an advantage over people because you play longer.

[Toranna]

If people want WoW they can go play WoW or one of the 50+ FTP games out there that look and feel exactly like WoW (Runes of Magic, Argo, AIKA to name a few.)

I would love if BioWare would take some notes from Mythic and implement some Open World Siege types battles. But you need to balance realms first. Stop allowing people to create Empire toons on a server that is 3 to 1 Empire, but that is not allowed in todays care bear society. Most want the I Win button and nothing says that liek 3 or 4 to 1 odds in battles.

[DKDArtagnan]

We thought we had that YEARS ago when a few old UO players decided to recreate UO. First there was UO:X (Did that even get off the ground?) then Darkfall. Both flopped because it couldn't be managed.

 

The magic of the old school games we knew, loved, and played for years is sadly gone for good it seems. Either adjust.. play a niche MMO (Eve Online for pvpers) or give up on MMOs.

 

Bottom dollar is Bottom line. And the masses have spoken.

 

Check out ArcheAge

[Coinkee]

Hah I got a guy on Harbinger that I know cause we PvP a lot, hes an SI:S in full Champion gear and every time he sees my level 25 BHPT AP in a warzone he just goes somewhere else cause he knows I'll do my best to try to kill him if he attacks me, but he knows I can't win at all.

 

Hes a guy that fully understands there is no challenge in how Expertise works, so he'll generally run right by me to go after a level 50 on my team that has PvP gear on.

 

And generally I just let him do his thing and I do mine, if we're on seperate teams. Unfortunately not enough people like you and him are willing to admit what a crutch Expertise is. I expect a lot of people that are heavily defending Expertise wouldn't PvP at all without it. Though I can only say that is a suspicion backed without facts.

 

I'm only defending it because i'm looking at the long term. Right now. it's horrible simply because the 1-49s have to deal with it in an enclosed instance and they shouldn't be grouped with them.

 

Come Tuesday that will preserve the lvling thru pvp aspect without bullies.

 

Come next month it won't matter in the 50s bracket cuz everyone will have it except fresh 50s working towards it.

[Toranna]

If people want to know the easy answer to the craptastic "PvP stat" implementation we have here. Scrap it and start allowing ppl to spend the commendations to "Inhance or Modify Skills". There is no reason you can't have standard gear available for all to obtain, and implement something like a AA skill tree like in EQ.

Have one tree for PvP and one for PvE. These trees open up different combinations allowign for true skill custimaization for people. But hey that would require some real thinking on behalf of the devs and would require real testing to ensure people can't create the "God Ability". There are dozens of things you can do besides using the lazy way out and implementing another Craptastic "PvP Stat" system.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Toranna

[Raxwars]

i'm not a fan of expertise, but i managed to get some champion/centurion gear, reached about 300 expertise, and now my pvp experience is completely different. From 100k+ damage i passed to 250k+, and suddenly i'm not the main target anymore.

 

So yeah, i'm not an exptertise fan, but now that it is implemented in game, there's not much to do. I mean, if someone removed the gear i lost hours trying to get i would ragequit all over. That's not really solution.

 

The solution is to implement level 20 and level 40 obtainable pvp gear with expertise, or even to sell mods at the pvp vendor. But that gear/mods would have to be always obtainable trough pvp points.

[Coinkee]

Check out ArcheAge

 

someone (maybe you) posted that name a few days ago in another thread. I wrote it down but havent had time to check it out.

 

Pls pls pls pls tell me its UO reborn.

 

I want to pvp in a skirt and sash again and have bandages to heal/rez ppl dammit!

I want to feel like i always have to look over my shoulder or protect my damn mule when i'm out gathering cuz i could lose it ALLLLLL lol

I want to wake up in the middle of the night in a panic cuz i didnt remember if i locked my keep door.

And i wanna remake my PKer that was shunned or insta gibbed by every NPC in the game and die to lose my stats/skills and have to redo them lolol (except my resist skill.. God that sucked to reskill!)

 

Altho i could do without the *You are taming the creature* lolol

[SandTrout]

I'm only defending it because i'm looking at the long term. Right now. it's horrible simply because the 1-49s have to deal with it in an enclosed instance and they shouldn't be grouped with them.

 

Come Tuesday that will preserve the lvling thru pvp aspect without bullies.

 

Come next month it won't matter in the 50s bracket cuz everyone will have it except fresh 50s working towards it.

 

The long term is that PvP and PvE communities will be separated, effectively halving the pool of players for either side to draw on.

[Toranna]

i'm not a fan of expertise, but i managed to get some champion/centurion gear, reached about 300 expertise, and now my pvp experience is completely different. From 100k+ damage i passed to 250k+, and suddenly i'm not the main target anymore.

 

So yeah, i'm not an exptertise fan, but now that it is implemented in game, there's not much to do. I mean, if someone removed the gear i lost hours trying to get i would ragequit all over. That's not really solution.

 

The solution is to implement level 20 and level 40 obtainable pvp gear with expertise, or even to sell mods at the pvp vendor. But that gear/mods would have to be always obtainable trough pvp points.

 

They dont need to get rid of the gear just the Stat. There is no reason for a "PvP Stat". All that does is give Min/Maxers another way to stroke their EPEEN.

[Raxwars]

And for those saying, that pvp should be only about skill, what about pve? i enjoy both modes, i even prefer pve, but i think saying that is just being selfish.

 

What about if PvE gear was removed all over? you entered a heroic, a raid, with a predefined Raid Gear given to you by the server.

 

Do you think any1 would play like this? ofc not. stop demanding stupid things.

[Raxwars]

They dont need to get rid of the gear just the Stat. There is no reason for a "PvP Stat". All that does is give Min/Maxers another way to stroke their EPEEN.

 

If you removed the Expertise Stat and replaced with a Crit bonus let's say, there would be no points in Doing normal raids, because my pvp gear > pve gear. That's not a solution also.

[Toranna]

And for those saying, that pvp should be only about skill, what about pve? i enjoy both modes, i even prefer pve, but i think saying that is just being selfish.

 

What about if PvE gear was removed all over? you entered a heroic, a raid, with a predefined Raid Gear given to you by the server.

 

Do you think any1 would play like this? ofc not. stop demanding stupid things.

 

There are dozens of things they could give besides gear. Titles, Skills, Modifications, Buffs just to name a few. Giving "Special" Gear is the lazy way out. And after other BioWare games I thought they would take a different approach, but I guess not.

[SandTrout]

And for those saying, that pvp should be only about skill, what about pve? i enjoy both modes, i even prefer pve, but i think saying that is just being selfish.

 

What about if PvE gear was removed all over? you entered a heroic, a raid, with a predefined Raid Gear given to you by the server.

 

Do you think any1 would play like this? ofc not. stop demanding stupid things.

 

In PvE you're not playing against players, you're playing against mechanics. These are two completely different mindsets, and if any distinction between PvP and PvE is made, recognizing that difference is crucial.

 

As for the predefined set of equipment for Heroics and Raids, I would still play them for the same reason that I play Expert Left 4 Dead, because it's a fun challenge.

[neocoma]

People dont get 2 things.

 

1. Expertise seperates PvP gear from PvE gear. Without expertise you would be forced to raid to gear up properly. PvP gear would be redundant as it must not be better than PvE gear in PvE and thus it must lack stats ofc. The lacking stats are compensated by expertise.

 

2. Gear: This game depends on gearing up as a timesink. It's a themepark MMO, that's how these games work. Deal with it or just leave.

 

Oh yeah ...Expertise does not have an impact as resilience in WoW does.

 

While I dont sit on 500 but 400 expertise atm I have about 8.5% effect in damage reduce and increase. Now what happens when I face someone with 400 expertise? I dont have any benefits from gear against him because he also has 8.5% dmg increase and reduction thus we are even. I have the edge over an undergeared player, however. But this is necessary because of point 2 I already spoke of: gear.

[Toranna]

If you removed the Expertise Stat and replaced with a Crit bonus let's say, there would be no points in Doing normal raids, because my pvp gear > pve gear. That's not a solution also.

 

here is at thing in PvE that gets forgotten and that is Enimity or hate. The easiest way to make PvE gear better for PvE is to make +Hate -hate (AION tried but never implemented it full enough) system that actually matters.

 

Other stats that matter in PvE but not so much in fast pace PvP like this game are regen types stats.

 

It is not hard to come up with easy ways to make "Special PvE" Gear super special for the Care Bears.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Toranna

[Desgarden]

I'm only defending it because i'm looking at the long term. Right now. it's horrible simply because the 1-49s have to deal with it in an enclosed instance and they shouldn't be grouped with them.

 

Come Tuesday that will preserve the lvling thru pvp aspect without bullies.

 

Come next month it won't matter in the 50s bracket cuz everyone will have it except fresh 50s working towards it.

 

Sure, the leveling guys will be on the safe side, however, they better buy a pot Vaseline because the full champ / bm geared 50s already wait for them with a fat smile in their face to cream them good.

 

 

As I said before: they copied even the age-old mistakes designers before made. Take WoW for example: pvp is a first-hand sado-masochistic experience. First you are the masochist and need a huge pot of Vaseline because all guys with expertise will rip you a new one. Is this fun? Certainly not.

 

Then the sadistic experience kicks in: you are geared and can rip new 50s and alts apart. Is it fun? Depends on your mindset. For me it isn't because I know most work does my gear.

 

That's plain and simple bad game design because a game should be fun and not frustrating for several weeks until you are geared to that level until you can hope to win against anyone who isn't playing with his feet.

 

Once more for emphasis: by all means, give us pvpers an edge for pvping a lot. However, the "edge" shouldn't be an "autokill".

Edited January 16, 2012 by Desgarden

[Raxwars]

In PvE you're not playing against players, you're playing against mechanics. These are two completely different mindsets, and if any distinction between PvP and PvE is made, recognizing that difference is crucial.

 

As for the predefined set of equipment for Heroics and Raids, I would still play them for the same reason that I play Expert Left 4 Dead, because it's a fun challenge.

 

MMORPG's are all about gear progression. You remove that, you remove most of the playerbase. I think that's one common mistake in gamers nowdays, trying to relate a MMORPG with, let's say a FPS, or an Action game.

[Ashes_Arizona]

I'm only defending it because i'm looking at the long term. Right now. it's horrible simply because the 1-49s have to deal with it in an enclosed instance and they shouldn't be grouped with them.

 

Come Tuesday that will preserve the lvling thru pvp aspect without bullies.

 

Come next month it won't matter in the 50s bracket cuz everyone will have it except fresh 50s working towards it.

 

Right and in a game with its long term life based in alt replayability and progressive storyline content, there will always be fresh 50s and someone will always in on the losing end of a fight simply cause they're coming in with the best PvE gear they can get, but its just not good enough. You seem to have this mindset that people that are just coming into the 50 bracket deserve to be farmed and because you got your gear before them you deserve to be the farmer. You know exactly how hilariously not challenging it is to take down a level 50 that has no expertise, you've done it, and you know how easy it is unless you start dealing with a 2 or 3 vs 1 situation, but yet you defend it....as if its some kind of axiom of online gaming that is immutable and should never be challenged. Are you ready to be a fresh 50 some day on an alt? I suspect no. Your position and philosophical methodology seems to suggest you intended to stay on the "Farmer" side of the fence, rather than join the "fresh 50s" in the farming pen at any point.

 

Well thats fine I think they need to make a PvE Stat then called "Resolution" which is only on level 50 PvE gear and you can't do Eternity Vault or any new operations without the full set of it because without "Resolution" you simply cannot withstand the design-for-failure AoE's that are made to trump anyone that isn't above a certain HP and Resolution level so people in PvE or PvP gear can't do that part of the game at all without having spent their time grinding for a set of gear that they only had to grind for so they could grind for more gear in EV and all new operations.

 

Lets close the doors on the entire end game. Lets make a bunch of level 50 crafting schematics but you can't get or use any of them unless you've created a Mastercraft schematic for every base schematic in your trade skill.

 

Lets add new level 50 mounts that you can only ride if you've done EV 1000 times and run hard mode BT/Esseles COMPLETELY NAKED while SOLO.

 

I totally get where you're coming from man, MMO's just aren't fun unless they're built into gated communities where people can spend their virtual lives looking down their noses at everyone else that hasn't achieved such easy to achieve feats like soloing the Infernal One with your keyboard and mouse unplugged.

 

I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you're right TOR needs more Korea in it, theres just not enough Korea in it already so lets segregate everything and make everyone have to grind for everything post 50.

 

In fact I think we should introduce a travel speed reduction at 50, and you can only increase your travel speed by doing space combat missions and you have to complete them all, every day, daily to have enough fuel to pilot your space ship around that day! I mean seriously fuel costing credits? WHAT IS WITH THE EZMODE HERE?

 

:rolleyes: