Stop complaining about EXPERTISE

[SandTrout]

And you lose their monthly sub because there is no progression for them.

 

No, they just go grind PvE because that is where they 'progress'.

[SandTrout]

People are raging because of a dmg buff/reduction of maximum 10%?

 

Pvp gear is accessible to everyone and the T2 pvp set is fairly easy to obtain.

If you're scared of getting facerolled by someone who has battlemaster/champion, get a buddy to help you.

 

PvP is a TEAM based game, you can win huttball by positioning yourself on the right places.

Voidstar = Harass. Alderaan, create a patrol group.

 

I won voidstar against a group 50's with me as a little lvl 38 sorc as highest lvl in my team.

 

Skill still takes a priority.

 

It took blizzard almost 3 years to get resi in the same condition as expertise.

Just because something can be overcome does not mean that it is inconsequential. What you're doing here is hand-waving an obvious flaw.

[Coinkee]

No, they just go grind PvE because that is where they 'progress'.

 

Uhmm.. No

[Ashes_Arizona]

And that is a problem.. Why? That just means people of equal skill will balance out when the pvp specced people get their gear. and you'll get your pve specced *** handed to you once they are equally geared.

 

What's the issue?

 

The issue is readily apparent. I'm on a gimped class, owning people, because of the gear I have on.

 

Seriously if you put my 50 Jugg up against a 50 Trooper in equal PvP gear....I flat out die cause I can't go one vs one against gravround+Kolto Field and Expertise, I just don't have the DPS or ability to survive it.

 

Same Trooper in level 50 PvE gear? He'll die trying to kill me. Cause he can't damage me enough, even though hes throwing tech damage at me and I'm completely gimped against tech damage right now til someone at BWA figures out what they did wrong in regards to resists.

 

And in your view thats good? Cause in my view its blatant evidence that Expertise trumps everything. And having one magic stat trump everything in PvP is ridiculous.

 

If you ensure end game PvP and end game PvE gear does not outpaced each other in gear rating, then everyone has the same equal chance in both scenarios, and you're not penalized in PvP because you spent your game time doing PvE, or vice versa.

[SandTrout]

Uhmm.. No

Why not? If progress, and not fun gameplay, is the only thing that keeps people playing PvP, then logically they would just play PvE so that they could progress through the gear.

 

That is, unless they don't actually care about progressing their characters and they only care about having an unfair advantage over others.

[Madwooki]

Expertise should have been disabled until the 50s only bracket was implemented and all this crying would have been for not.

[Coinkee]

The issue is readily apparent. I'm on a gimped class, owning people, because of the gear I have on.

 

Seriously if you put my 50 Jugg up against a 50 Trooper in equal PvP gear....I flat out die cause I can't go one vs one against gravround+Kolto Field and Expertise, I just don't have the DPS or ability to survive it.

 

Same Trooper in level 50 PvE gear? He'll die trying to kill me. Cause he can't damage me enough, even though hes throwing tech damage at me and I'm completely gimped against tech damage right now til someone at BWA figures out what they did wrong in regards to resists.

 

And in your view thats good? Cause in my view its blatant evidence that Expertise trumps everything. And having one magic stat trump everything in PvP is ridiculous.

 

If you ensure end game PvP and end game PvE gear does not outpaced each other in gear rating, then everyone has the same equal chance in both scenarios, and you're not penalized in PvP because you spent your game time doing PvE, or vice versa.

 

Because you outgear him it's a flaw? Because you took the time and got the right gear for the right activity to use it in. That's a flaw?

 

So you're saying that 2 people in pve gear. One in purple and one in green. The purple dude should kick the greenies ***. That's a flaw?

 

He'll kick your *** IN EQUAL gear. That's.. a flaw?

 

Expertise is the top stat IN ITS FIELD. That field being pvp.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Coinkee

[DKDArtagnan]

Expertise is only in TOR because of Resilience in WoW. TOR was designed mostly by suits trying to copy the big boy - and they failed in several ways.

 

Not only that, but they also seem to think every single decision made by Bliz is the correct one, because it's still a success. Even though they've openly said they don't want a dungeon finder - they're now reconsidering. Within the first month. I wonder when they're going to go cross-server too.

 

If you can't think for yourself, you can always steal from people with success. That works, obviously, but it doesn't mean you should steal every aspect.

 

PvP and PvE are not separate entities. They're ways to play your character, and we all enjoy both to SOME extent. STOP trying to separate them as if we're not from the same planet.

 

Expertise is nothing but a crutch to prevent PvE gear from being competitive. It's stupid - just like it was stupid in WoW. What they needed was a smarter ranking system - that's all, really.

 

It will effectively ruin long-term PvP - especially open world. You don't need much of a brain to realise this.

 

Of course, you can be in denial about it - and most people seem to think that because a mistake has been around for years, it MUST be there.

 

Stop being a sheep and use your brain.

 

Expertise is a disease.

[Repefe]

The whole idea of gear grind being the fun of playing MMO PvP or PvE for that matter is laughable. I don't care about the gear, for all I care we can fight each other but naked ... it's old school mechanic that will die with time. It just hasn't died yet.

[rdyornot]

Dude you can't even read. I'm not sure why I'm trying to even discuss this with you.

 

Juggernaut Immortals SUCK at PvP, there is either an oversight or a bug which causes shield rating and defense rating to not be calculated at all in regards to anything but a melee (saber attack), or ranged attack (blaster shot). Everything else that everyone does, IA knives, BH rockets, Trooper Gravrounds, SI Lightning, JC Force Wave...anything that isn't a saber swing or a simple shot from a blaster weapon is completely ignored by shield and defense rating. This has been proven by people that are even more on the ball about TOR PvP than me or you.

But on my Juggernaut Immortal, which is totally PvE spec'd with PvP gear on, I can dominate people that are PvP spec'd that are not in PvP gear.

 

If the bolded part of the post doesn't sink in for you, then you're incapable of even understanding what you're reading and should probably go back to rage quitting Huttball when some level 10 doesn't have time to pass the ball before they die when 8 people are attacking them.

 

So you have played the game and gained rewards for it, shockingly thats how progression works.

 

That dont mean expertise have to be removed or changed.

 

I dont see how the defence/shield rating bug has anything to do with this though

[Estenex]

I personally would quit the game if I was not advancing my character in any way. Why don't you go play a fighting game or a first person shooter or some other online gearless PvP game? It seems MMOs aren't your thing.

 

I agree with the argument that the person who plays the most should not have the gear advantage. The solution to this is a Rated ladder system like arena in WoW. I'm not saying this game needs a deathmatch arena, but a ranked system which increases when your team wins and decreases when your team loses. Once you hit a certain rank, better gear becomes available to you. This way gear is awarded based on skill not time invested

 

And the game would be better without you. If you where a true competitor you would want to show that it is skill that gives you the edge and not the gear you have spent time grinding. The guy has a point... for war zones at least. War zones should be run like he suggested with the ability to get those vanity items but also gear you for OW PVP. That way new but skilled players could still enjoy the game and people such as yourself who think 'the best players deserve an advantage' still get your rewards.

 

This idea isn't new mind you. Guild wars 2 will have something similar.

[Coinkee]

Why not? If progress, and not fun gameplay, is the only thing that keeps people playing PvP, then logically they would just play PvE so that they could progress through the gear.

 

That is, unless they don't actually care about progressing their characters and they only care about having an unfair advantage over others.

 

They want to progress their toon thru what they enjoy and for the purpose of the gear. pvp. not pve. Scripted boss fights dont appeal to everyone just like pvp doesnt appeal to everyone.

[Ashes_Arizona]

Because you outgear him it's a flaw? Because you took the time and got the right gear for the right activity to use it in. That's a flaw?

 

So you're saying that 2 people in pve gear. One in purple and one in green. The purple dude should kick the greenies ***. That's a flaw?

 

He'll kick your *** IN EQUAL gear. That's.. a flaw?

 

The flaw is that I can kick his *** at all, in ANY gear. Thats the part you're creatively ignoring.

 

Juggernauts ARE GIMPED. Bugged up the wazzo, zero resists to anything that isn't melee or ranged energy.

 

0 Kinetic Resists

0 Elemental Resists

0 Internal Damage Resists

0 Tech Damage Resists

0 Force Damage Resists

 

You could kick my *** with a vibroblade as a non-melee spec archetype. Why? Vibroblades are TECH DAMAGE.

 

But if I put on my SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET of +400 Expertise,...you can't. And thats not right, at all. Gimped class should stay gimped regardless of magical "Expertise" stat, but it only stays gimped if faced with someone that also has a SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET.

 

By all rights, level 50's in PvE gear SHOULD be kicking my Juggernauts ***, because my Juggernaut is complete fail 1 v 1 due to bugs in the resist schema.

[Coinkee]

Expertise is nothing but a crutch to prevent PvE gear from being competitive. It's stupid - just like it was stupid in WoW. What they needed was a smarter ranking system - that's all, really.

 

Smarter ranking system how? When you have to force people to pve top end hardmode raids or get killed in 1 shot from EVERY class (even a healer HA!) without resilience.

 

Thats EXACTLY what Resil/Expertise is. A barrier between the 2 aspects of the game. One that doesn't force one to do top end content of the aspect they don't enjoy doing abd don't want to have to dedicate time to in order to be competitive in the aspect they do enjoy.

 

Open world pvp is a gonner in any game that has gear progression of any kind or instanced battlegrounds. Even back in the glory days TM/SS 3 day long open world pvp battles before BGs came around when there was no pvp gear and just MC the MC geared people ruled.

[SandTrout]

They want to progress their toon thru what they enjoy and for the purpose of the gear. pvp. not pve. Scripted boss fights dont appeal to everyone just like pvp doesnt appeal to everyone.

If they enjoy PvP and PvE, then they will play it regardless.

[Coinkee]

The flaw is that I can kick his *** at all, in ANY gear. Thats the part you're creatively ignoring.

 

Juggernauts ARE GIMPED. Bugged up the wazzo, zero resists to anything that isn't melee or ranged energy.

 

0 Kinetic Resists

0 Elemental Resists

0 Internal Damage Resists

0 Tech Damage Resists

0 Force Damage Resists

 

You could kick my *** with a vibroblade as a non-melee spec archetype. Why? Vibroblades are TECH DAMAGE.

 

But if I put on my SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET of +400 Expertise,...you can't. And thats not right, at all. Gimped class should stay gimped regardless of magical "Expertise" stat, but it only stays gimped if faced with someone that also has a SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET.

 

By all rights, level 50's in PvE gear SHOULD be kicking my Juggernauts ***, because my Juggernaut is complete fail 1 v 1 due to bugs in the resist schema.

 

I'm not creatively ignoring it. You took the time to play that aspect of the game and got the gear for it.. He has not. You outgear him for pvp. He will have that magic helmet of +400 expertise as will everyone else in a month and you'll be back here whining that you want your Jugg buffed and everyone else nerfed.

 

Welcome to MMOs

[Paganwishes]

I think expertise is fine, people putting all their time into PvP should be better at it, simple as that. Everyone have the same possibilities to grind PvP gear.

 

I enjoy putting some time in to both PvP and PvE, I run some hardmodes and play some PvP inbetween FP groups. In my first week of lvl 50 I now have 7 Champion items and that's only from doing weekly and daily pvp quests + maybe 5 bags from commendations.

 

People ar starting to get battlemaster gear now and that's fine, I cant expect to be best in all aspects of the game, I know I could be up there competing if I'd like to, but as I said earlier I enjoy playing both PvE and PvP, again I can't expect to be best in PvP, same thing applies to PvE if I don't place all my time in to raiding, I wont be progressing as fast as full PvErs do, Im fine with all of this, why cant you guys be?

[SandTrout]

I'm not creatively ignoring it. You took the time to play that aspect of the game and got the gear for it.. He has not. You outgear him for pvp. He will have that magic helmet of +400 expertise as will everyone else in a month and you'll be back here whining that you want your Jugg buffed and everyone else nerfed.

 

Welcome to MMOs

No. Just because WoW did it doesn't mean that it is either good or how all MMOs do it.

 

WoW wasn't the first MMO, or even the first sucessful MMO.

 

WoW was also not designed with PvP in mind, nor was it's PvP the primary attraction for players.

[Coinkee]

If they enjoy PvP and PvE, then they will play it regardless.

 

And you have every right to play both sides.

 

As i've stated to you in another thread. MANY people have BOTH top end raid gear AND top end pvp gear. This isn't uncommon over time.

 

But when you force one side (pvp) to pve in ORDER to pvp. That's a problem and the bottom dollar is on the line. Expertise forces you to pvp to get the gear to pvp. and pve forces people to pve to get gear to pve. Once the rush settles and people have TIME to get situated it's really not hard to keep up both.

 

This is not your precious DAoC or Planetside of years ago. Times gave changed in the MMO industry and altho a newer age DAoC MIGHT get a niche amount of subs. It will never be mainstream NOW. It did well FOR ITS TIME, that 'time' was over long ago.

[nrathdor]

I used to be a WoW gladiator like you, until I took a lightsaber to the knee.

 

Made my day, Sk***m

[DKDArtagnan]

Smarter ranking system how? When you have to force people to pve top end hardmode raids or get killed in 1 shot from EVERY class (even a healer HA!) without resilience.

 

Thats EXACTLY what Resil/Expertise is. A barrier between the 2 aspects of the game. One that doesn't force one to do top end content of the aspect they don't enjoy doing abd don't want to have to dedicate time to in order to be competitive in the aspect they do enjoy.

 

Open world pvp is a gonner in any game that has gear progression of any kind or instanced battlegrounds. Even back in the glory days TM/SS 3 day long open world pvp battles before BGs came around when there was no pvp gear and just MC the MC geared people ruled.

 

The entire game is broken because of how they've approached PvP/PvE. They simply haven't thought it through - or maybe they just don't care.

 

A proper ranking system would put people with similar total stats together, and it would reward performance based on POTENTIAL - rather than a totally flat rate.

 

Beyond that, you have to put premades against premades - and PuGs against PuGs.

 

You need to make PvP and PvE gear similar in performance, so that people who raid won't outmatch people who PvP when meeting them in World PvP.

 

World PvP should never be a sportsgame with over-balance. But give every player the chance to get good gear by being GOOD.

 

Gear should be rewarded for PERFORMANCE - not TIME INVESTMENT.

 

It's just another disease of the mainstream and overly casual design approach. If everyone can do everything - then everything loses its meaning. The key is to give everyone the POTENTIAL to do everything. You don't do that by separating PvP and PvE - and you don't do it by separating fresh 50s from 50s who played for months.

Edited January 16, 2012 by DKDArtagnan

[SandTrout]

But when you force one side (pvp) to pve in ORDER to pvp. That's a problem and the bottom dollar is on the line. Expertise forces you to pvp to get the gear to pvp. and pve forces people to pve to get gear to pve. Once the rush settles and people have TIME to get situated it's really not hard to keep up both.

Then make the Battlemaster gear have the same stats as the Rakata gear.

 

I don't want to force anyone to do anything. I want them to do whatever they want.

[Anvenom]

The biggest problem with expertise, other than making pvp a boring gear grind, is that it forces people to choose between plYing pve or pvp. Its just not physically possible to be "elite" or honestly even up to date at one if you play the other. Try to join a hardcore pvp and pve guild at fhe same time, you'll get laughed at

[Coinkee]

The entire game is broken because of how they've approached PvP/PvE. They simply haven't thought it through - or maybe they just don't care.

 

A proper ranking system would put people with similar total stats together, and it would reward performance based on POTENTIAL - rather than a totally flat rate.

 

Beyond that, you have to put premades against premades - and PuGs against PuGs.

 

You need to make PvP and PvE gear similar in performance, so that people who raid won't outmatch people who PvP when meeting them in World PvP.

 

World PvP should never be a sportsgame with over-balance. But give every player the chance to get good gear by being GOOD.

 

Gear should be rewarded for PERFORMANCE - not TIME INVESTMENT.

 

It's just another disease of the mainstream and overly casual design approach. If everyone can do everything - then everything loses its meaning. The key is to give everyone the POTENTIAL to do everything. You don't do that by separating PvP and PvE - and you don't do it by separating fresh 50s from 50s who played for months.

 

They are adding in rated warzones for your matching system.

 

And altho i agree with most everything you said. From a programmer analyst point of view that is a complete nightmare to code.

 

People nowadays want to be able to log on. Do a quick few BGs before work to have some sort of progression on their toon. Be that a rated match or arena or FP or what have you. (Note: im including both aspects here)

 

WoW unfortunately has made people lazy. Want instant gratification (LFD LFR). Shiny new toys every few months. All that with zero accountability (Xserver) And they are delivering on that with very few bugs atm.

 

Unfortunately every MMO from here on out is expected to have the same model if they even remotely wish to succeed in the industry. People are impatient.

 

Balancing all that without separating pve and pvp is a total nightmare for programmers if not impossible.

 

Open world pvp will never thrive again in a pve/pvp oriented 'world' that has instanced pvp with rewards and instant gratification.

[DKDArtagnan]

They are adding in rated warzones for your matching system.

 

And altho i agree with most everything you said. From a programmer analyst point of view that is a complete nightmare to code.

 

People nowadays want to be able to log on. Do a quick few BGs before work to have some sort of progression on their toon. Be that a rated match or arena or FP or what have you. (Note: im including both aspects here)

 

WoW unfortunately has made people lazy. Want instant gratification (LFD LFR). Shiny new toys every few months. All that with zero accountability (Xserver) And they are delivering on that with very few bugs atm.

 

Unfortunately every MMO from here on out is expected to have the same model if they even remotely wish to succeed in the industry. People are impatient.

 

Balancing all that without separating pve and pvp is a total nightmare for programmers if not impossible.

 

Open world pvp will never thrive again in a pve/pvp oriented 'world' that has instanced pvp with rewards and instant gratification.

 

I understand why they made TOR like they did. Also, I'm sure it will bring a decent return.

 

Bio/EA won't go bankrupt.

 

But when you steal a design without thinking and you don't care about your game with true passion, all you're ever going to be is second-rate.

 

That's fine, I suppose. But, as a player, I don't have time for second-rate.

 

I need a developer who is brave enough to educate the masses about what's REALLY fun - and not just meet expectations like casual gamers knew what was good for them.