People who ninja for their companions

[LogicalPremise]

I'm not going to bother responding to most of these posts, especially Eldren's hilarious rebuttal. Here is the true bottom line:

 

Some people feel it's okay to need on companion if they ask first. No one in the community has a problem with this. Obviously if you are the only person with a droid companion like T7 and droid gear drops, no one else needs it. Just ask. But others have made the assertion that there is no reason to ask and that since they shared in dropping the boss, they have every right to a need roll.

 

There are only two arguments that can be made to justify this:

 

1) You have no right to tell me how to play the game = selfish childishness , no one cares, Hello Kitty Online is that way. People who give this answer are being laughed out of the thread.

 

2) My companions need to be upgraded for me to be able to play the game, so I have a right to gear them so I can play, otherwise the game becomes frustrating.

 

The latter argument is the logical one to attack. Once proved false, these people are nothing more than entitlement junkies saying "my need is more than the needs of others", which is fine, since we can just ignore them and let them have fun being kicked from PUG to PUG like a Huttball. (Oh wait...Hutt's don't have feet. Whatever.)

 

I don't really care what some of these people are claiming in regards to "companion need", because my own evidence suggests their motive is flat out false.

 

I equipped Khem Val , T7, Mako, and Corso (for a mix of types) with standard greens, and then a mix of Flashpoint blues and high end purples (from the GTN for the purples, to simulate higher end gear from operations).

 

The results were fascinating.

 

For T7 and Khem Val (tanks, ranged and melee) there was literally zero difference. Khem Val did roughly 5% more damage and had about another 800 HP, but he went down 4 seconds later in purples than he did in base greens. T7 did 8% more damage roughly (this was more haphazard as T7's damage in FlyText is all over the place) but again, no increased survivability.

 

Mako's "pitter pat" heal increased from 57 to 61. Earthshattering. Her "big heal" gained some effectiveness, from 800's to almost a thousand. Her survivability, once I lost threat, continues to be that of wet toilet paper.

 

Corso was the most interesting. In full FP and purple gear his DPS increased almost 25% and his survivability seemed to last a lot longer as well. The DPS companions seem to benefit the most from such gear since their purpose (damage) is often boostd considerably, but I also must state that the quality of purps for Corso was somewhat higher than for the rest.

 

Finally, soloed a Heroic (Knightfall on Taris, which is a nightmare) with my companion in greens, and then in purples. Except for having to rest a bit more here and there and burn my reusable medpack twice more, there wasn't any difference in how long it took or the fact that I could complete it.

 

Obviously, one set of tests is hardly objective or all encompassing. I encourage others , when you have the cash and spare time, to try it out and see for yourself. For me, however, the argument that companions need these sort of upgrades to be effective is , quite frankly, demonstrably false.

[pairadox]

not unfair.... just the luck of the draw.

 

 

it's only "percieved" as unfair by the loser of the roll.

 

 

if you had won...I bet there wouldn't be this BS morality gripe...lol.

 

 

.

 

No, not luck of the draw.

Luck of the draw came from the random loot table that dropped a specific item meant for a class. It moves out of luck of the draw and into rude, greedy, and selfish when you rolled on it, and its not a direct upgrade for your toon. (not your companion, your toon.) At that point, you... yes you, made a conscious choice to lower the probability of that person receiving an upgrade simply for your own gain.

 

Now, before you get all righteous on me. An upgrade for a persons toon is not ultimately selfish. As that upgrade increases the groups chances for success in continuing the instance and progressing further. You choosing need for your companion who is currently out polishing the chrome on your new spacetrailer hitch is not only morally reprehensible its poor behavior.

 

Now. Ask me what happens your companion actually shows up in the instance and heals, or tanks, or dps's......

[Marksthedude]

If anyone one i was in a group with needed on some gear for their companion that my character could use, i would ignore them, kick from party and encourage everyone else in group to do the same.

 

If everyone done the same to these no good ninjas then they won't be finding groups at all

Edited January 14, 2012 by Marksthedude

[ArtMonster]

you guys can cry all you want....

 

 

the fact is...you lost a roll.

 

 

deal with it and move on.

 

 

they aint gonna give you the item becasue you rage-posted about it.....

 

and..... it's gonna happen again if you group, it always does.

 

roll "need" like everyone else does, and you will have the same chance to gain, and then continue playing the game....

 

 

or...

 

 

you can start another "poor-me I lost a roll" thread.

 

 

 

your choice.

.

[uniz]

its not ninja but is clearly inappropriate behavior. you will always see this behavior in games now days since blizzard's player base feel this is how you play these games. blizzards legacy isnt a mmo with innovation which it clearly wasnt but rather a player genre where everything is mine and to heck with all of you.

 

sadly no matter what game you play these days you will see this. however the ones where leveling is rather difficult, have severe death penalties , have communties with no lfd and or have little open world pvp appear to rarely have such incidences. such games are hard to find since children of all ages dont flock to them. most have communities where the players police this behavior.

 

the only way in this game to limit your contact with these types of people is to either join a good guild or make some friends with like values.

 

dont feel bad, myself and my guildies have seen alot of behavior like this in this game so far and these people just dont care. they wont change. all you have to do is write down thier name(and guild if guilded) and just not play with them nor with thier guildies. this is old school but it works. you will get immense satifaction for said player lfg in channel for hours without any takers. sadly lfd will take away this means of punishment and is why alot of us dont want it without a means to include any ignore type list.

[thecoffeecup]

ArtMonster, people behave nicely to each other because that increases the chance of being treated nicely yourself.

 

That's why our societies have, well you know, laws and stuff.

 

Not that there are laws against rolling need. But respecting the need/greed system would be better for all of us and increase YOUR chances of winning the loot you need.

[pairadox]

you guys can cry all you want....

 

 

the fact is...you lost a roll.

 

 

deal with it and move on.

 

 

they aint gonna give you the item becasue you rage-posted about it.....

 

and..... it's gonna happen again if you group, it always does.

 

roll "need" like everyone else does, and you will have the same chance to gain, and then continue playing the game....

 

 

or...

 

 

you can start another "poor-me I lost a roll" thread.

 

 

 

your choice.

.

 

I just kick people from groups that do that.

/shrug

 

Loot rules are known ahead of time, dont like em your welcome to move on.

 

Or....

 

 

you can try and convince more people to be morally bankrupt on the forums.

[LogicalPremise]

<badly formatted and capitalized derp>

 

Thank you for your contribution to the thread, I particularly like the way you responded to many of the issues.

 

You will, of course, not be infuriated when my JK rolls on an item I can't use in any capacity but you can and smugly inform you that it's just a roll , get over it? Yeah,thought not.

Edited January 14, 2012 by LogicalPremise

[hushia]

you guys can cry all you want....

 

 

the fact is...you lost a roll.

 

 

deal with it and move on.

 

 

they aint gonna give you the item becasue you rage-posted about it.....

 

and..... it's gonna happen again if you group, it always does.

 

roll "need" like everyone else does, and you will have the same chance to gain, and then continue playing the game....

 

 

or...

 

 

you can start another "poor-me I lost a roll" thread.

 

 

 

your choice.

.

 

Wait, wut? You don't think I can have an opinion on this matter without feelings of jealousy, unfairness or butt'hurtingness coloring my view?

 

I never encountered anyone yet who rolled need for their companion. I never lost a roll to a ninja yet, nor did I encounter party members with rude and anti-social demeanors.

 

My opinion is based on my values of what is right or wrong. And I feel that when a group makes a group effort and gets rewarded for that, the group should benefit from the reward, not the individual. Therefore if an item drops it should go to the one in the group who will benefit the most from it.

 

Now stop trying to make people who do not agree with senseless needing, look bad by saying they're only feeling that way cos they lost a drop. It doesn't work

Edited January 14, 2012 by hushia

[profaneascension]

Can the same not be said for a PuG? If not, why not? You put the time in, you earned it right?

 

The difference is clear: in a PuG, you are a one-time, random collection of players which may never see each other again and have no obligation to help one another after the group disbands. DKPs are earned in a guild; it's a finite resource earned over multiple runs of the same content with people you (presumably) trust. There is an explicit agreement among guild members to this system of rewards---if your performance is poor or you don't show up, you don't earn those DKPs. There is no such agreement among the members of a PuG.

 

Also, if you're in any kind of a decent guild, the raid leader will always give the players who can use the item the first right of refusal. If none of those players want it, then it's left to the others to spend whatever they want on the item.

 

Your argument was very poorly conceived.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[Ageizm]

Anyone who rolls need for a pet on our server is blacklisted. Let them group with their pet. Truthfully all pet gear should have a requirement like "Xalek required" in the text, and not be able to put on our gear.

[pairadox]

The difference is clear: in a PuG, you are a one-time, random collection of players which may never see each other again and have no obligation to help one another after the group disbands. DKPs are earned in a guild; it's a finite resource earned over multiple runs of the same content with people you (presumably) trust. There is an explicit agreement among guild members to this system of rewards---if your performance is poor or you don't show up, you don't earn those DKPs. There is no such agreement among the members of a PuG.

 

Also, if you're in any kind of a decent guild, the raid leader will give the players who can use the item the first right of refusal. If none of those players want it, then it's left to the others to spend whatever they want on the item.

 

Your argument was very poorly conceived.

 

Not sure.... uh...

 

I think you may have just dunked on him.

 

Which is of course worth +2 internets and 100 Lightside points.

[profaneascension]

Not sure.... uh...

 

I think you may have just dunked on him.

 

Which is of course worth +2 internets and 100 Lightside points.

 

lol, thanks. I'm not trying to put anyone down on purpose, but I've participated in four such threads over the last week and the other side will always come up with some kind of excuse for their behavior. I just want to inject some modicum of sanity into these debates and try to show that there's a reason loot rules exist, and that they're not "hardcore," "old fashioned" or draconian in anyway.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[Tiron_Raptor]

Simple solution really:

 

Add 'companion need' roll option that comes between 'Need' and 'Greed' Hierarchy wise.

 

Add 'need before greed' loot option that restricts 'need' rolltype to people that can use it themselves for need, or their companions can use it for companion need.

 

Just don't be dumb like blizzard and include the level requirements in the check: all you need to check is what armor types you/your companions can use and if it has the right primary stat: so far as I've seen, the only things that don't always have one of the primary stats on them are certain relics, which are thus useful for anyone (at least in theory) and can't be used on companions anyway. I have yet to see an item with more than one of the primary stats on it either.

 

Since the companions are static it wouldn't even be that hard to do: just do it as a lookup table.

 

Player is <advanced class>, can roll need on <relics> or items with <primary stat for class> and (that are <list of armor types usable by class> armor or <list of weapon types usable by class> or <list of offhand types usable by class>)

 

EG:

 

Player is <Vanguard> can roll need on <relics> or items with <aim> and (that are <light or medium or heavy> armor or <blaster rifle> or <power generator, shield generator>).

 

There are two ways you could accomplish companion need: use essentially the same formula, based on the non-advanced class of the player, that lays out the explict options for all their companions in one go, or have a giant lookup table with individual entries for each companion. The latter can use two ways to determine what it pulls: what companions they have currently, or another, simpler table that lists which companions they can get by what class they are. Either of the options that work for all companions each class can get, no matter if they have them at the moment or not, would come out like this in the end(barring stuff I miss because I can't look it up easily):

 

EG:

 

Player is <Jedi Knight>, can roll companion need on items (with <aim> and that are (<heavy droid> armor or <blaster rifle, blaster pistol> or <shield generator>)) or with <willpower> and that are (<light> armor or <Electrostaff, Lightsaber, Double-Bladed lightsaber> or <focus>)) or (with <cunning> and that are (<medium(, light?)> armor or <blaster pistol> or <scattergun>)) or (with <aim> and that are (<heavy(, light, medium?)> armor or <assault cannon(, Blaster Rifle?)> or <power generator>)) or (with <strength> and that are (<light, medium, heavy> armor or <lightsaber(, Vibrosword?)> or <shield generator>))

 

Totally doable, just a minor pain to get the algorithm worked out.

 

The option that just has one table with a comprehensive listing for each class to start with would be somewhat simpler for a trooper than many of the others, since all trooper companions use heavy aim armor and aim based weapons: the only thing you need to account for is that they all use different weapon types. I don't think most of the classes have nearly as streamlined companion options though, so the giant lookup table that lists each companion essentially as a separate class is probably going to be less prone to errors and will only return redundant information in a few cases.

 

Stuff that isn't gear you can just have bypass the lookups entirely and always have 'need' active with 'companion need' inactive(rather like the relics). Endgame Item Tokens could work similarly, or have both needs enabled, or just 'need', depending on how bioware wants to work it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[SnoggyMack]

The difference is clear: in a PuG, you are a one-time, random collection of players which may never see each other again and have no obligation to help one another after the group disbands. DKPs are earned in a guild; it's a finite resource earned over multiple runs of the same content with people you (presumably) trust. There is an explicit agreement among guild members to this system of rewards---if your performance is poor or you don't show up, you don't earn those DKPs. There is no such agreement among the members of a PuG.

 

Also, if you're in any kind of a decent guild, the raid leader will always give the players who can use the item the first right of refusal. If none of those players want it, then it's left to the others to spend whatever they want on the item.

 

Your argument was very poorly conceived.

 

That's NOT how DKP works. As you yourself state, if you have the DKP you earned it. And can spend it. And in this game there will be situations where people spend it on their companion. It's going to happen. To "decent" guilds as well.

 

This is why this thread is mis-named. Winning a roll is not being a ninja. You may not like that the sith assassin rolled on Hunter Gear ... I mean AGENT gear ... but there was no ninja taking place in the original post.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SnoggyMack

[Tiron_Raptor]

That's NOT how DKP works. As you yourself state, if you have the DKP you earned it. And can spend it. And in this game there will be situations where people spend it on their companion. It's going to happen. To "decent" guilds as well.

 

This is why this thread is mis-named. Winning a roll is not being a ninja. You may not like that the sith assassin rolled on Hunter Gear ... I mean AGENT gear ... but there was no ninja taking place in the original post.

 

DKP and Words have one thing in common: they're defined by the people using them. Languages exist because a group of people agree on what most words are and what they mean, but even within a particular language there's disagreements: Is it spelled Color or Colour? Is "ain't" an acceptable word or not? Is it pronounced 'Lootenant' or 'Leftenant'?

 

"Ninja" in the MMO context is generally taken to mean something along the lines of 'a person who rolled need on an item they didn't actually need for their character'. At present, there are some people who feel that a companion is part of 'your character' and some people who feel that it is not.

 

There is unlikely to be a general agreement on that subject, though I suspect that most people would be willing to concede that a companion's needs are less significant than the actual player character's needs. If nothing else, because companions can't be used for everything.

 

Actual implementations of DKP vary widely as well. If classes with a greater need for a particular item are given the right to bid on/buy it before everyone else is one of the things that fairly commonly varies. Different guilds have different rules, and it wouldn't surprise me if some end up with a rule that people who need it for themselves get to bid before it's opened for people that need it for their companions.

[profaneascension]

That's NOT how DKP works. As you yourself state, if you have the DKP you earned it. And can spend it. And in this game there will be situations where people spend it on their companion. It's going to happen. To "decent" guilds as well.

 

We could go back and forth on how DKP works 'til the cows come home, but let's compare the results of our own interpretations and see where that leads, shall we?

 

A raid of 16 people have been working on the same boss for a couple of weeks. The raid has two tanks, four healers, ten DPS. Everyone has been accumulating DKP with each attempt. Finally, they learn the mechanics of the fight, manage to take down the boss and are now ready to take on the next one in that raid. A tanking item drops.

 

1) We use your interpretation of DKP. Naturally, the two tanks want to bid for the item, but one of the healers decides that he wants it for his companion, and he wins it. The overall preparedness of the raid has not improved at all because no one got any upgrades from the boss as the healer cannot use that piece of tanking gear. Neither the encounter they'd just beaten nor the next one they will face gets any easier.

 

2) We use my interpretation of DKP. The raid leader allows only the tanks to bid on the item. Now everybody benefits because the tank takes less damage, putting less pressure on the healers to focus on the tanks; the DPS also benefit because the healers can now throw an extra heal or two on them that would have had to go to a tank without that upgrade. This fight becomes easier next time, and so does the next one they will have to face.

 

In what universe does the first scenario make more sense over the second? Why would anyone want to join a guild that interprets DKP in that manner?

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[SnoggyMack]

A raid of 16 people have been working on the same boss for a couple of weeks. The raid has two tanks, four healers, ten DPS.

 

In the original post we had 3 agents and one assassin. Try to keep that in perspective. In the original post, the assassin rolled on an item against the three agents. The assassin won.

 

Nothing was ninja looted.

 

Everyone has been accumulating DKP with each attempt. Finally, they learn the mechanics of the fight, manage to take down the boss and are now ready to take on the next one in that raid. A tanking item drops.

 

1) We use your interpretation of DKP. Naturally, the two tanks want to bid for the item, but one of the healers decides that he wants it for his companion, and he wins it. The overall preparedness of the raid has not improved at all because no one got any upgrades from the boss as the healer cannot use that piece of tanking gear. Neither the encounter they'd just beaten nor the next one they will face gets any easier.

 

The DKP system is set up that if the healer outbids the tanks, what's the problem? What were the tanks doing that they didn't have enough DKP to outbid the healer? Is the healer any less useful to the guild's longterm success because they chose to outbid the tanks?

 

I get the feeling you've never encountered guild drama or loot drama before. A lot of us long-time raiders have been in situations where Tanks start bidding on DPS items and that ticks off the DPS.

 

So I don't know where your anecdotes are going to take us. But I maintain that in this game there will definitely be guild drama perpetuated by loot distribution. There already is. This thread, an agent was ticked off that an assassin beat him for a roll on an item in his 30s that he will be able to replace with a few solo quests for commendations later that day or a few thousand credits on the GTN by using his Fleet Pass after the run is over.

 

That's small potatoes compared to the loot drama that will happen as this game further develops.

 

And has nothing to do with the way the buttons are set up.

 

And keep in mind, Master Looter controls exist already for groups.

 

Lead your own groups and avoid the drama completely.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SnoggyMack

[Alcarinn]

Irrelevant to the issue.

 

 

 

Please point me to these laws? I am unaware of any laid down laws, legal or otherwise to which you refer. Oh, you can't? So just more supposition on your part?

 

 

 

 

Ever heard of laws created in real life that are not really written down and you will not be charged for on court yet still majority ''respects'' and uses them.

 

Like saying hi if someone says hi like shaking hand if you are offered han since this is called civilised its the same in game just different ''laws''...

 

But its ok i know its hard to understand that keep ''apologizing'' (you probably dont know what '' '' means aswell) your actions over some technical issue of ''written down laws'' and hide the fact that you are ninja behind them

 

I dare you to tell your character names here and your realm destination and tell everyone you need on everything your companions use and see the outcome... tell everyone when they invite you to group that you will press need on all items you think are needed for your companions...

 

Lets see how many people will NOT KICK YOU.

 

But you wont dare to do that anyway since you know your group count in pugs will be heavily reduced after community hits 50 and is established

[SnoggyMack]

Nobody kicks the healer from the group. It takes too long to find a new one.

 

So the threat of black listing really only applies to DPS classes. Which are, as always, completely replacement parts in group makeup in an MMORPG.

 

The Quon Principle from EQ still exists to this day.

Edited January 14, 2012 by SnoggyMack

[Setanian]

Ever heard of laws created in real life that are not really written down and you will not be charged for on court yet still majority ''respects'' and uses them.

 

Like saying hi if someone says hi like shaking hand if you are offered han since this is called civilised its the same in game just different ''laws''...

 

But its ok i know its hard to understand that keep ''apologizing'' (you probably dont know what '' '' means aswell) your actions over some technical issue of ''written down laws'' and hide the fact that you are ninja behind them

 

Your opinion.

 

I dare you to tell your character names here and your realm destination and tell everyone you need on everything your companions use and see the outcome... tell everyone when they invite you to group that you will press need on all items you think are needed for your companions...

 

Lets see how many people will NOT KICK YOU.

 

Chika, Bao Dur, I press need on whatever I like.

 

But you wont dare to do that anyway since you know your group count in pugs will be heavily reduced after community hits 50 and is established

 

See above. Again you post your opinion without merit, facts or thought.

[TheRealBoz]

Pro-tip, you can set master loot on world bosses. You should do that next time and give gear to those that actually do need it if the majority of the group things players come before companions.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

A 4-man guild group initiates a trollface worldboss takedown group. "Sure, everyone an get some loot."

[profaneascension]

In the original post we had 3 agents and one assassin. Try to keep that in perspective. In the original post, the assassin rolled on an item against the three agents. The assassin won.

 

And my post was aimed at a person (edit: Setanian) who brought DKP into a conversation about a pick-up group.

 

The DKP system is set up that if the healer outbids the tanks, what's the problem? What were the tanks doing that they didn't have enough DKP to outbid the healer? Is the healer any less useful to the guild's longterm success because they chose to outbid the tanks?

 

I just told you what's wrong with a healer rolling on a tank item. It does not benefit the guild overall. Moreover, do you really want to be that guy who stunts the progression of the guild just because you feel you've earned a piece of gear that you can't even use on the character that you bring to the raid? I certainly don't. As a healer, I would want my tank to be better geared so that not only my job becomes easier, but so does that of everyone else in the raid.

 

I get the feeling you've never encountered guild drama or loot drama before. A lot of us long-time raiders have been in situations where Tanks start bidding on DPS items and that ticks off the DPS.

 

So I don't know where your anecdotes are going to take us. But I maintain that in this game there will definitely be guild drama perpetuated by loot distribution.

 

My raiding experience, rich as it has been, is completely beside the point, which you seem to be missing entirely by deflecting to posts that have nothing to do with my argument, which is that classes that can use a piece of loot should have first right of refusal to it, no matter how many DKP anyone else in the raid can spend. You purport to disagree with tanks being able to bid on DPS gear because it causes guild drama, and yet you're telling me that any class should be able to bid on an item so long as they have sufficient DKP. Could you please state your position with some semblance of clarity?

 

There already is. This thread, an agent was ticked off that an assassin beat him for a roll on an item in his 30s that he will be able to replace with a few solo quests for commendations later that day or a few thousand credits on the GTN by using his Fleet Pass after the run is over.

 

Again, my post was addressed to someone who compared a chance to roll on an item in a PuG to spending DKP in a guild raid. And if I may say so, it doesn't matter how easily replaced that piece of gear is; it's the principle of the matter.

Edited January 14, 2012 by profaneascension

[SnoggyMack]

I just told you what's wrong with a healer rolling on a tank item. It does not benefit the guild overall.

 

Why doesn't it benefit the guild overall? The healer earned his or her DKP. Just like the tanks. They spent the time. They wiped just as often as the rest of the guild. They earned their points. And if they were able to outbid the tanks on a tanking item, that means the tanks were already gearing themselves up on the journey to that boss and did not have enough DKP to outbid the healer.

 

Your anecdote doesn't really work since DKP systems have been in place for ages and this type of loot drama is typical.

 

Moreover, do you really want to be that guy who stunts the progression of the guild just because you feel you've earned a piece of gear that you can't even use on the character that you bring to the raid?

 

If your tanks are spending their DKP on other items, and you feel your DKP is best spent on the item that just dropped, how are you stunting the guild's progression?

 

Maybe the tank lowbid because it's a tank item, but they'd rather have a weapon upgrade that didn't drop? Maybe the tank can't outbid you because yesterday they got a chest upgrade so now you have more DKP than they do. It's your DKP that you earned raiding in your guild.

 

My raiding experience, rich as it has been, is completely beside the point, which you seem to be missing entirely by deflecting to posts that have nothing to do with my argument

 

I'm not deflecting anything. I think your argument is oversimplified and tends to ignore the nitty gritty of where loot drama comes from. It doesn't apply very well to this thread's original post and really doesn't apply well to guild loot distribution systems in practice in this MMO or others.

 

You approach it with this general idea that everyone wants to improve the guild's progression by putting the right items into the right people's characters each time out. But the game doesn't work like that.

 

You can go on a run through a series of encounters and watch something like this happen:

 

- Boss 1: Tank item drops. Tank wins it, spends DKP.

- Boss 2: Weapon Upgrade drops. Tank wins it, spends DKP.

- Boss 3: Tank item drops. Tank tries to bid on it. Doesn't have enough DKP. Healer wins it with a low bid, puts it on healer's companion. Tank flips out. Because tank feels tank deserved the item.

 

That scenario plays itself out time and time again. In actual raiding guilds. Loot drama. Not a single instance of anyone ninja looting anything. Just the really bad breaks of how random loot tables can be random.

 

Giving that tank the third item may or may not help the guild progress.

 

And that doesn't even get into the situation where a guild has something on farm mode. So you've got easy content your guild is clearing and you've got guild vets gearing up companions against guild noobs who aren't geared up yet.

 

DKP equalizes the playing field. You put your time in you get your gear. But there are a lot of situations where people simply get something because they have more DKP than you and that ticks you off.

 

This game won't change that. And calling that ninja looting is misleading.

 

Could you please state your position with some semblance of clarity?

 

You first.

[Setanian]

The Quon Principle from EQ still exists to this day.

 

Geez, I'd forgotten about the Quon!