1.1 Changes for Jugg

[Bang-A-Rang]

So with the updated changes to the Jugg, a 1.5s CD on Endure Pain, and Force Push reseting the CD of Force Charge. Do any of you feel that this will help with the issues outlined by the Devs themselves?

 

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :

Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

 

Honestly I don't think a 60s CD (57s if Rage Specced) resetting our Charge is going to really fix our mobility it gives Rage another way to get a big burst out quickly if needed which is nice I guess. Looking at it from a PvP aspect, as imps, we usually get Huttball and when you get knocked away it's usually off ramps so this change would be pointless with the 10m range on Force Push.

 

Endure Pain getting the CD cut in half. I don't see this as survivability, sure you live longer and may kill your target but without proper healing you will still die so this should be considered an increase in our ability to stall?

 

There has yet to be a covering of the fact that Rage is vastly superior to Vengeance in pretty much every way, except for Unstoppable and Pooled Hatred at least those help you with the outlined ideas above.

[Redial]

yea i was a little perplexed at their statement, and then the patch notes.

 

 

i guess id rather see force charge reset the cd on force push instead of the other way around. at least i can one shot kill people with push if i get lucky

 

and endure pain, maybe if you didnt lose the life after 10 sec? i dunno. maybe there is more coming in future patches

[Morsexy]

Some of the issues I find are not overly related to mobility. Of more pressing concern for me is how powerful hybrid spec'd Sorcerer\Republic equivalents can be.

 

They have a HUGE absorb shield that works correctly as opposed to most mitigation currently in game, and very very good damage and healing.

 

If they spec a particular way, it is nigh impossible for any melee to kill solo. If I want to (Read, PVP Red buff + trinket ) I can usually kill someone in a 4-5 second window no matter what they do, but this makes that take upwards of 30 seconds for me. Anyone else in worse gear or not quite as quick on interupts and use of force choke as a ranged interrupt will never kill them, ever.

 

I think the force push change is a great idea, though currently playing correctly with 4 piece tier PVP you should not be Force Charging into battles anyways.

 

I'd prefer something where unleash grants you immunity to slowing and root effects for 2\4 seconds high up in the Rage tree, as opposed to Vengeance where a lot of the good utility PVP talents live.

[Anarachis]

yea i was a little perplexed at their statement, and then the patch notes.

 

 

i guess id rather see force charge reset the cd on force push instead of the other way around. at least i can one shot kill people with push if i get lucky

 

and endure pain, maybe if you didnt lose the life after 10 sec? i dunno. maybe there is more coming in future patches

 

You lose the Extra health to your maximum, not the health it healed. Currently I get an extra 4kish health to my max, but am healed for 6.5k(bug or the healing is affected by my force power?), but if I am at less than 4k when the effect expires I don't insta-die.

 

It is basically a massive self heal, and yes that equates to survivability.

[IvamAkorahil]

You lose the Extra health to your maximum, not the health it healed. Currently I get an extra 4kish health to my max, but am healed for 6.5k(bug or the healing is affected by my force power?), but if I am at less than 4k when the effect expires I don't insta-die.

 

It is basically a massive self heal, and yes that equates to survivability.

 

is that the enw version ? coz the current endure pain takes it off your current hp, once the 10 sec are over i lose the 30% again down to 1 HP

[crypticedge]

That is how it works, yes.

 

I don't know what kind of endure pain he was using but it's not the same one we all have.

[Shendaar]

Endure pain in its current form is definitely not a self heal. All it does is buy you a bit of time to try to get some healing or kill your target. I have had my HP drop to 1 many times when it ends.

[Kabaal]

Definately not what i was expecting for the survivability buff and if i'm being honest its a pretty poor one considering the problem in that department is that most damage types almost completely bypass our armor and shields.

 

Force push finishing the cooldown on our leap is a nice addition but not something i think we currently need, our mobility is already pretty good. I'd probably have preferred having force pull back again.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Kabaal

[Bang-A-Rang]

I don't really mind being kited, I feel like it's part of the game, especially for squishies. I guess we all agree that even the squishies in swtor don't squish easily but still.

 

I say keep our mobility the same, but make it actually matter. I feel like if we are in your face you damn sure better know it, we should be dealing damage proportionate to how often we actually get to strike our target. This is how most warrior classes are handled in most games, while we spend less time on target our damage over the duration of the fight is equal or at least close to those ranged characters who get 90% damage up time.

 

Keeping this idea in mind you can see why so many Marauders/Juggs spec into Rage, that giant 6k Smash is this premise while we may not be on you for long while we are there you know it. Vengeance and the other marauder specs just don't have that oomph. People always go to the "I can do more damage with Vengeance than Rage" and that very well might be true, on a stationary target, but while you are getting knocked around like a ping pong ball Rage will always be more appealing since you really only get/need the big Smash and possibly a Force Scream before you are walking back to your target.

 

The Endure Pain buff is really just a crutch, it's a stall, not going to save you, you may get a kill more often but you'll still die, no real survivability in that.

 

"You should just get a healer, then you would be unstoppable." The old pocket healer argument. Anything with a pocket healer is unstoppable, but my Merc doesn't need a healer, I don't see Madness sorcs running around with pocket healers, 1.2% of his health is regened every time a Periodic effect crits, and they have Affliction, Crushing Darkness, Force Lightning, and Creeping Terror. But Hooooray my Endure Pain has a 1.5m CD LOOK OUT!

 

I'm not trying to by cynical. I honestly don't play my Juggernaut anymore, my guild needed Ranged DPS so I switched to a Merc and I love the Pyrotech play style. But I would like to see the rest of you guys get SOMETHING. I played the story I know how much harder it was to level as a Warrior than the other classes. I remember a story line quest mid level where I had to solo an elite and 2 guards with my Companion knocked out, seriously have the Warrior class do that? Ridiculous. Every level past 40 was like peeling off my own skin it would take every CD I had and every trick to finish a pack of mobs, and I watch a sorc walk into the same pack and finish it in 1/4 of the time with 3 buttons.

 

Sorry for the wall!

[steinsgate]

I honestly don't play my Juggernaut anymore, my guild needed Ranged DPS so I switched to a Merc and I love the Pyrotech play style. But I would like to see the rest of you guys get SOMETHING. I played the story I know how much harder it was to level as a Warrior than the other classes. I remember a story line quest mid level where I had to solo an elite and 2 guards with my Companion knocked out, seriously have the Warrior class do that? Ridiculous. Every level past 40 was like peeling off my own skin it would take every CD I had and every trick to finish a pack of mobs, and I watch a sorc walk into the same pack and finish it in 1/4 of the time with 3 buttons.

 

Agreed.

 

I had been pulling out my hair from level 38 and on while leveling my warrior. Now I've gotten my Operative to level 46 leveling as medicine spec, healing the odd warzone, and having all around a much better time. I'd like a reason to at least want to play my jugg to do dailies or something, but it's just too damn frustrating to be worth my while.

[omninull]

Yeah, try to tell me that dps specs are working as intended when you can be in pretty much a 100% melee fight with a trooper and still lose.

DPS juggernauts should be feared if they're able to stay on you in melee range. The trooper didn't even bother trying to keep me out of range.

 

The endure pain 'buff' is a pathetic attempt to resolve the problem.

And the changes to force leap is only useful in pvp. Wonderful.

Edited January 14, 2012 by omninull

[Wickedwood]

yea its pretty bad that i feel like i need to gear out to beat a gold mob on my quest line like he is a raid boss. i have a geared quin that heals me and i used every cooldown i have endure pain saber ward invincible and the companion hp Regen cooldown all staggered and with a perfect rotation and stims and i still only get it to 1/3 of its hp tryed to beat him several times at least 5 with mutiple diferent tactics got owned every time.

meanwhile u have bounty hunters that tell you they have never had one single problem with class quest elite mobs and they have never even had to use any cds to beat them now tell me that something is not wrong here?

[Varus_Praetor]

Agreed.

 

I had been pulling out my hair from level 38 and on while leveling my warrior. Now I've gotten my Operative to level 46 leveling as medicine spec, healing the odd warzone, and having all around a much better time. I'd like a reason to at least want to play my jugg to do dailies or something, but it's just too damn frustrating to be worth my while.

 

This as well. I got to 40 and hit a wall on Hoth, despite over-leveling the content a bit. It's not that I couldn't do it, it was just really painful. I rolled a sorc and it's so much more fun. The story sucks by comarison, but at least the game play doesn't make me want to bang my head against a wall.

[Cempa]

Enduring pain should heal the warrior for the amount gained.

 

Smash range needs to be increased my 1m - 2m

 

Force Push needs 15sec - 20sec reduction in CD before talents.

 

Force Crush needs to be a proper snare for a full 8sec and cost reduced from 4 rage to 3 rage.

 

Saber Throw should have its CD reduced by 15sec to 20sec before talents.

 

Bring back Force Pull.

[Sivn]

These changes wont actually change anything.

[Noth]

Yay for endure pain getting a 1.5 minute cooldown. Wait no. Using the worst defensive cooldown in the game twice as often will not help our survivability in any meaningful way..

[Morsexy]

Yay for endure pain getting a 1.5 minute cooldown. Wait no. Using the worst defensive cooldown in the game twice as often will not help our survivability in any meaningful way..

 

Personally I think this is a great cooldown, and a great buff. What do you want, immunity for 30 minutes?

[Noth]

Personally I think this is a great cooldown, and a great buff. What do you want, immunity for 30 minutes?

 

Something that won't make the vital HP pool vanish after 10 seconds. So many times has this cooldown actually killed me (drops to 1 hp then a stiff wind will kill you). In the same situation saber ward saves me. Endure pain is the absolute worst defensive cooldown in the game. Ho bout a 20% reduced damage for 30 seconds? How about a cleanse, how about having armor actually worth something and not having classes able to ignore it. How about just making it a 30% heal so that it doesn't run the risk of killing us. There are tons of options.

[KitloHearod]

My thoughts as a level 50 Jugg who loves PvP, and currently uses the rage spec.

 

First change, Force Push resetting our Charge's CD. I find that interesting. I can see it being useful in PvP (not so much PvE, but I guess if you needed to move a mob very quickly while staying on it, or needed 3 more rage?), but it won't help the fundamental problem of staying on our target if they so much as push us away once.

 

The second, Endure Pain's CD being cut in half - It's a good buff, but won't help all that much in the long run. Very rarely will you be popping it twice a fight, and that's probably only if two tanks are poking each other. So it doesn't help us actually surviving. If it didn't save us before 1.1, it won't save us now.

[Bang-A-Rang]

Something that won't make the vital HP pool vanish after 10 seconds. So many times has this cooldown actually killed me (drops to 1 hp then a stiff wind will kill you). In the same situation saber ward saves me. Endure pain is the absolute worst defensive cooldown in the game. Ho bout a 20% reduced damage for 30 seconds? How about a cleanse, how about having armor actually worth something and not having classes able to ignore it. How about just making it a 30% heal so that it doesn't run the risk of killing us. There are tons of options.

 

We don't need anymore abilities. We already have WAY to many. If anything though I guess I wouldn't mind Invincible being baseline and replacing that talent with something else in the Immortal tree.

 

There are plenty of fixes that could come through the pipes that I wish I'd see.

 

1) Sundering Assault having no CD so I can get rid of assault on my bar, Mercs can spam tracer as fast as they want, (Alacrity not only reduces cast time but also reduces the GCD for the casted ability) and get their armor debuff up right away, while we have to wait for 4.5s CD completely ridiculous.

 

2) Make the Vengeance bleeds deal a % of the damage the attacks deal this would def help with scaling issues everyone is talking about.

 

3) Or if you don't want to change the bleeds, make the Rampage talent, on proc, reduce the channel time of Ravage so the spec can be a bit more mobile as a melee DPS.

 

4) Fix channels in general I am so sick and tired of Leaping in and hitting Ravage or Force Choke to see the animation start and no damage occurs, the CD doesn't fire but that's besides the point, if this happens with a Ravage I actually get stuck in the animation and can't cancel it so I'm a sitting duck dealing zero damage.

 

5) Smash should deal damage at the point where it ends not where you started the animation. If I'm right on someones *** hitting them with Sundering Assaults and I pop Smash it won't hit because the damage radiates from the point where the animation started not where it ends. Who the hell designed that?

 

6) Armor is worthless, wearing heavy armor means nothing when there are 50%+ armor pen abilities available. Acid Blade perma 50% for the Scoundrel/Operative, with 5 Stacks of Tracer and High Velocity Gas Mercs/Commandos get 55% perma, Duplicty procs grant 50% armor pen on Backstab for Assassins/Shadows, and then the limited amount of Elemental/Internal resistances available makes Periodic effects cut right through us.

 

I'm sure there is more, but that was all I could spit out in a short amount of time, errands to run!

[Somedokin]

 

4) Fix channels in general I am so sick and tired of Leaping in and hitting Ravage

 

I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

[RasputinTS]

I seriously hope you guys don't do this.

Exactly. While ravage is better for a immortal jugg, I don't use it in my rotation much.

[dbbullock]

Exactly. While ravage is better for a immortal jugg, I don't use it in my rotation much.

 

I rarely use it at all. It's a loss in DPS to let it run full duration, so when I do use it, I let the first two hits go off and then interrupt it myself.

 

In my opinion, a solid fix to Juggs is very simple - fix Shatter. It's a TERRIBLE 31 point talent, in almost every respect save for the damage, which is terrible in PvP because of the dot duration.

 

Easy fix: either reduce the duration of the bleed to 6 seconds, or simply nerf the total damage by 10-15% and make it all instant, a la Impale. On top of that, the prerequisite of Sunder needing to be up for application is LAUGHABLY stupid and clunky. I understand the talent isn't there for burst, but in its current form, it's pretty much worthless to everyone but PvE Juggs (which, let's face it, are horrible dps anyway).

 

At this point, I'd take a severe nerf to Rage spec just for the changes to Shatter.

[omninull]

Personally I think this is a great cooldown, and a great buff. What do you want, immunity for 30 minutes?

 

Someone call the Hyperbole Police.

[ZetsumeiKira]

Bahahaha! Endure Pain? Adding survivability? This is one of the best jokes ever!