SWTOR feels more like a theme park than a world

[TheHeadCapper]

 

Because you don't like challenging games. Any challenging game to you is "frustrating" and a "time waster." You're a Game Genie kid, right?

 

I think the point he's making is even most MMO's are never challenging, it just took you longer to do things. No that couldn't be it you are super ub3r right?

 

EQ was never hard, it was waiting around for your chance at a boss or spawn. That doesn't equal tough.

Edited January 13, 2012 by TheHeadCapper

[Kurnea]

The popularity of an argument has no bearing on its logic, nor does the popularity of a game have any bearing on how good it is. Justin Beiber seems like a pretty popular guy. In fact, at the moment, Justin Beiber's music is probably more popular than Frank Sinatra's music. Does that mean Justin Beiber's music is better?

 

He specifically said that EQ isn't 'mainstream', your entire diatribe about what's good or not has no bearing on that. He's right, EQ isn't mainstream, neither is Frank Sinatra atm. What I see here is like someone turning on a radio station playing today's top hits and complaining that instead of Buddy Holly or Muddy Waters, there's Lady Gaga and Kate Perry. Here's an idea: Why not turn the station to something that actually plays the music you want? Instead of complaining that you can't find what you want on the greatest hits station, actively go out and look at other listening alternatives.

 

 

At its peak I think it had around 500,000 subscribers. Which isn't a failure in today's standards. You also have to consider that the idea to pay a monthly fee to play a game was very taboo at this time. Most people at this time thought this was a huge waste of money.

 

 

 

No, what made WoW popular is as follows:

 

1. It was developed by a popular company (Blizzard).

2. WoW is based on a popular universe (Warcraft).

3. WoW was released during a time when EQ was in its decline, when people were fed up with SOE's antics.

4. Good controls and UI.

 

It had nothing to do with lenient death penalties, for instance, contrary to what some people might think. I remember going to WoW from EQ and the thing that stuck out to me the most was how polished WoW was, not "Oh wow, the death penalty is weak! Good!"

 

That would be your reaction, which I think you'll admit you don't exactly represent most gamers today. I've seen more than a few people on the WoW forums say that lower death penalties was one of the reasons they preferred WoW over EQ.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Kurnea

[Gestas]

I think the point he's making is even most MMO's are never challenging, it just took you longer to do things. No that couldn't be it you are super ub3r right?

 

No, EQ was just more difficult all around. For instance, DPSers had to actually manage their aggro. In a game like WoW, the only person who has to worry about aggro is the tank; and if the tank can't keep aggro, then that's the tank's fault. But in EQ, the tank, DPS, and healers had to manage their aggro. This was a mechanic that was lost when WoW came on the scene.

 

EQ was never hard, it was waiting around for your chance at a boss or spawn. That doesn't equal tough.

 

Well, let's say EQ wasn't hard... whatever the difficulty EQ was/is, it's certainly higher than WoW's.

 

Furthermore, the argument that many people use against EQ makes little sense. It's akin to saying beating Super Mario using 1 life is not actually more difficult than beating Super Mario using 10 lives (referring to the death penalty for WoW and EQ).

 

Actually, the first game would in fact be more difficult. It leaves less room for error. I call that more difficult, but other people (usually detractors) will call it "frustrating." Well, actually, it could be both. Difficult or challenging things typically do lead to frustration; but that's not a good argument against difficult or challenging things.

[Gestas]

He specifically said that EQ isn't 'mainstream'

 

I know, which is completely irrelevant.

 

I don't care if something is mainstream. I don't play games, listen to music, and watch movies and ask myself, "Is this mainstream? No? Then it's bad."

 

Here's an idea: Why not turn the station to something that actually plays the music you want?

 

Because most stations are playing horrible music, like Lady Gaga, Justin Beiber, etc.

 

That would be your reaction, which I think you'll admit you don't exactly represent most gamers today.

 

I don't know about that.

 

I've seen more than a few people on the WoW forums say that lower death penalties was one of the reasons they preferred WoW over EQ.

 

I played WoW for about 5 years and never read or heard much about EQ's death penalties being too harsh. I think most WoW players never even played EQ and just hopped on the MMORPG bandwagon because it's the "cool genre" now ever since the cool kid on the block, Blizzard, got involved.

[Lukkulo]

Could not agree more with the OP - this is a marketing exercise - nothing more

[Kurnea]

I know, which is completely irrelevant.

 

I don't care if something is mainstream. I don't play games, listen to music, and watch movies and ask myself, "Is this mainstream? No? Then it's bad."

 

So.... why quote someone talking about that EQ isn't mainstream? My point was that your response was completely irrelevant to what you were responding to. He was talking about what was mainstream, you start going on about that what's popular isn't neccesarily is good.

 

 

Because most stations are playing horrible music, like Lady Gaga, Justin Beiber, etc.

 

With satellite radio, there are tons of stations, and what with services like Pandora or other similar services, you can create your own music. But again, that would take effort beyond simply leaving the popular station on and complaining, now wouldn't it.

 

 

I don't know about that.

 

You just went on a diatribe about how popular things are horrible. Seems clear you agree that your tastes are somewhat niche.

 

I played WoW for about 5 years and never read or heard much about EQ's death penalties being too harsh. I think most WoW players never even played EQ and just hopped on the MMORPG bandwagon because it's the "cool genre" now ever since the cool kid on the block, Blizzard, got involved.

 

I played WoW for over 6 years and read plenty of people saying that they though EQ's death penalties were harsh and appreciated WoW better. Many of those said they played both.

 

Who spent more time on the WoW forums, me or you? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?f=post&a=Kurnea%40Uldum&sort=time

[iamzombie]

This thread is just proof that hipsters play MMO's.

[Gestas]

So.... why quote someone talking about that EQ isn't mainstream?

 

Because the statement, "EQ isn't mainstream" is worthless.

 

So I responded to it as such.

 

You just went on a diatribe about how popular things are horrible.

 

That wasn't my point actually...

 

The point is popularity does not make a good game. So to continue on about what you think is popular is pointless.

 

Seems clear you agree that your tastes are somewhat niche.

 

I actually don't think my taste in MMORPGs is niche.

 

I played WoW for over 6 years and read plenty of people saying that they though EQ's death penalties were harsh and appreciated WoW better.

 

I think you're lying, to be honest. Usually people who play WoW are copy/pasting bad jokes that they read on 4chan into /trade.

 

But even if you aren't, I don't see why this matters, since I've read and heard the complete opposite from some WoW players.

 

Who spent more time on the WoW forums, me or you? http://us.battle.net/wow/en/search?f=post&a=Kurnea%40Uldum&sort=time

 

1. I don't know if that is you. BRB let me go find a WoW poster who has written more posts than you, and then pretend it's me.

 

2. I was more of a WoW forum lurker than anything, since 90% of WoW players choose to be incredibility stupid. Getting into an argument with one of them is pointless.

 

3. It doesn't matter if you encountered a few people who thought EQ was too hard. There's no way of knowing if that opinion is of the majority or minority.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas

[fruitofvictory]

Can't agree with you more, OP. I have been waiting, holding my breath, for the game that would bring back the epic feeling to epics and the legendary feeling of being a max level character.

 

I think I'll be waiting a long time, in this online world of entitlement, laziness, and in the real world where even the losers get a trophy.

[Kurnea]

Because the statement, "EQ isn't mainstream" is worthless.

 

So I responded to it as such.

 

Responding to it as such would either be saying it was worthless, or not responding at all, not talking about something completely irrelevant to what you quoted.

 

 

That wasn't my point actually...

 

The point is popularity does not make a good game. So to continue on about what you think is popular is pointless.

 

No one was addressing that point in the first place. You kind of just brought it up.

 

I actually don't think my taste in MMORPGs is niche.

When you dislike what's popular and enjoy what's niche, that amounts to having niche tastes.

 

I think you're lying, to be honest. Usually people who play WoW are copy/pasting bad jokes that they read on 4chan into /trade.

 

But even if you aren't, I don't see why this matters, since I've read and heard the complete opposite from some WoW players.

I can assure you I'm not lying. I spent plenty of time on the WoW forums. And it matters because earlier you said no one enjoyed WoW for having more lenient death penalties than EQ. There were such people, hence your statement was wrong. The existence of some people who felt otherwise doesn't preclude those others from not existing.

 

 

 

1. I don't know if that is you. BRB let me go find a WoW poster who has written more posts than you, and then pretend it's me.

 

What exactly would you like to know to prove that I'm the same Kurnea?

2. I was more of a WoW forum lurker than anything, since 90% of WoW players choose to be incredibility stupid. Getting into an argument with one of them is pointless.

 

So you rarely posted? Interesting, little evidence that you spent much time on the forums then, how convenient.

3. It doesn't matter if you encountered a few people who thought EQ was too hard. There's no way of knowing if that opinion is of the majority or minority.

Same exact logic proves that what you say doesn't matter, then. You talked to people that said they didn't change to WoW because of EQ's difficulty, I've talked to people that say exactly the opposite. If the people I talked to don't prove anything, then neither did the people you talked to.

[Gelotri]

It could always be worse.

 

If you have ever played SWG and remember the "Rage of the Wookies" expansion. That was truly a theme park expansion. Narrow corridors that could not be circumvented (unless you fell through the terrain).

 

At least in swtor you can move about rather freely.

[Gestas]

Responding to it as such would either be saying it was worthless, or not responding at all, not talking about something completely irrelevant to what you quoted.

 

OK, Kurnea, there comes a point where you need to let go.

 

The guy I was responded to made the statement that EQ isn't/wasn't--whatever--mainstream. I responded with that doesn't matter.

 

If you still don't get it at this point, then I don't know what to say. You can only do so much with your 85 IQ.

 

When you dislike what's popular and enjoy what's niche, that amounts to having niche tastes.

 

Example #2039238923 of Kurnea's poor reading comprehension.

 

I never said that, as a rule, I disliked what is popular and like what is niche.

 

I can assure you I'm not lying. I spent plenty of time on the WoW forums.

 

You know, after your last post, I'm really starting to believe you...

 

you said no one enjoyed WoW for having more lenient death penalties than EQ.

 

Yes, typically, people will say that the biggest draw for WoW was its polish (good controls and UI).

 

If WoW was released with a exp loss death penalty, then I'm sure it would have done just as well as it did. Maybe even better.

 

So you rarely posted? Interesting, little evidence that you spent much time on the forums then, how convenient.

 

I didn't post much on the WoW forum and I was eventually banned from the forums. So I was mostly a lurker.

 

Same exact logic proves that what you say doesn't matter, then.

 

Exactly. Now you're catching on. You or my hearsay means very little.

 

But my beliefs as to why WoW did so well aren't based on hearsay. They're just based on common sense and my knowledge of what was during WoW's advent.

[Kurnea]

OK, Kurnea, there comes a point where you need to let go.

 

The guy I was responded to made the statement that EQ isn't/wasn't--whatever--mainstream. I responded with that doesn't matter.

 

Actually, you responded by talking about popularity doesn't make something good, which had nothing to do with what he was talking about. It's like you brought up a seperate point out of nowhere.

 

Example #2039238923 of Kurnea's poor reading comprehension.

 

I never said that, as a rule, I disliked what is popular and like what is niche.

 

I never said you said that. But with mmos at least, you've made it clear that you hate some of the more popular mmos, including WoW. Your mmo tastes are somewhat niche nowadays.

 

 

 

 

Yes, typically, people will say that the biggest draw for WoW was its polish (good controls and UI).

 

If WoW was released with a exp loss death penalty, then I'm sure it would have done just as well as it did. Maybe even better.

 

I'm sure of quite the opposite. heck, with WoW even as it was, people complained that there weren't enough graveyards.

 

 

I didn't post much on the WoW forum and I was eventually banned from the forums. So I was mostly a lurker.

Why am I not surprised you were banned.

 

 

 

Exactly. Now you're catching on. You or my hearsay means very little.

 

But my beliefs as to why WoW did so well aren't based on hearsay. They're just based on common sense and my knowledge of what was during WoW's advent.

 

MMO players wanting harsher death penalties isn't common sense, it's a rather subjective assumption. If you want, start a poll and see if that's what people really want.

[Syrak]

First of all. Every single MMORPG is a grind (at least according to you). To you, progression = grind.

 

Questing = grind. Running the same dungeons over and over = grind. Killing mobs = grind.

 

Regardless, I don't think anyone here said they wanted a grind... In fact, I never mentioned anything about leveling in my original post. Did you even read it?

 

Yeah, I did, where you mentioned that dying has no penalty, questing is too easy, Everquest was the best thing ever, etc.

 

I actually played EQ (and UO, and everything since) so I know what I'm talking about when I say that EQ was a grind. So if you think EQ was the end all be all of MMO design and you say you DON"T want a grind then you are straight up lying to yourself.

 

Don't get me wrong I played the **** out of EQ back in the day but that design was all about just populating a world with creatures and letting you kill them. No questing, no real reason for it, just killing...a lot. You killed stuff over and over til you dinged (best sound ever) and you killed bosses in dungeons over and over until the armor you wanted would finally drop. It was a grind.

 

This game was advertised as the opposite of that (aka story-driven aka themepark). So, my point is, if you came in wanting/expecting something else you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

 

The reason why I'm complaining is to let Bioware know that there are still players like me that don't like theme park MMORPGs.

 

The reason you are complaining is because you want this game to be some other kind of game. I'm actually trying to help you out.

 

You want no instancing, harsh death penalties and no hand holding right? Eve is great and I've played it a lot also, go try it for a while yourself and maybe it will be your perfect MMO, it sounds like what you want.

[icecoldone]

i agree with the OP this game's world is horrible and doesn't feel like a real world

[Centra]

I agree with you OP.

 

When I play these games, I like to feel like I've earned the achievement of whatever I'm after, be it in time spent or actual difficulty. And no, I do not have a "hardcore" amount of time to play.

 

Everything in this game that I get is meaningless to me, so far. Nothing makes me feel like, "I finally did it!" and proud of myself.

 

I love the stories, and it's for the stories I stay.

 

May the force be with you.

[Avanaco]

For the msot part, I agree with you. Death penalties especially.

 

Yeah no kidding lol. When doing a heroic mission, and a bunch of pulls is just going to take too long, I've had groups that decided to just group up and run for the objective, die, res in a few seconds, and then fast travel out.

 

That's not... smart design.

[Multiple]

Only if there were only a handful of people at any given place anywhere in that theme park because they were sharded, and walking too near the trash cans could cause you to get stuck on them

[Gestas]

I agree with you OP.

 

When I play these games, I like to feel like I've earned the achievement of whatever I'm after, be it in time spent or actual difficulty. And no, I do not have a "hardcore" amount of time to play.

 

Everything in this game that I get is meaningless to me, so far. Nothing makes me feel like, "I finally did it!" and proud of myself.

 

I love the stories, and it's for the stories I stay.

 

May the force be with you.

 

I agree . The dialogue/stories are the best part about this game. Everything else is copy/pasted from previous themepark MMORPGs, like World of Warcraft. In fact, this game feels more linear than WoW.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Gestas

[Akkalevil]

OP : very interesting post.

I strongly agree with most of what you said, and agree a bit with the rest. Just wanted to chime in and tell you that you're not alone ^^

[CountAthaulf]

wow, just wow.. a themepark mmo that has always been advertised as a themepark mmo actually feels like a themepark mmo... What a surprise.

Quick, let´s waste our money those 5 people that can afford to play a sandbox mmo 24/seven because they don´t have a life of their own.. that would sure make profits wouldn´t it?

Edited January 15, 2012 by CountAthaulf

[Gestas]

wow, just wow.. a themepark mmo that has always been advertised as a themepark mmo actually feels like a themepark mmo...

 

To me, this is akin to saying "We're creating a MMORPG that has no business being called a MMORPG because it plays like an Xbox Live cooperative minigame."

 

But SWTOR is called a MMORPG... In other words, "Theme Park MMORPGs" are really just bad MMORPGs; and they really have no business being called MMORPGs. That's not to say SWTOR is a poor game. I gave it a 8.7/10. It's just not a good MMORPG.

 

Quick, let´s waste our money those 5 people that can afford to play a sandbox mmo 24/seven

 

I don't know where you got the idea that so-called sandbox MMORPGs (a true MMORPG) would sap more of your time. This sounds like WoW/Blizzard propaganda.

 

And I find it ironic that somebody who plays MMORPGs would be worried about their time. You probably already waste too much time playing MMORPGs.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Gestas

[Maughann]

I'd like to clarify my point, EQ wasn't hard, it was primitive and unfriendly. It lacked options and flexibility. It had no direction. Playing it was like trying to carve a chicken with a sledge hammer, sure everybody gets a bit but it wasn't really how you wanted to do it.

It lacked the refinement of a modern MMO that stops it from being painful to use.

 

As to your comment calling me a Game Genie kid..I guess that if you need to stoop to Ad Hominem tactics, you really don't have any firm arguments to make.