No Legit Azeroth Comparisons

[CptZeal]

inb4 waiting for GW2!!!!

 

I want to play GW II AND SW: TOR. Problems?

Edited January 13, 2012 by CptZeal

[CptZeal]

Waiting for GW2!

 

Also, good post.

 

There are some features they could've included from WoW...oh wait, they are planning to, they have always been planning to as far as I can tell. They were just forced out the door early by EA.

 

Also, ^THIS^ I blame EA, not Bioware.

[Striker]

Pretty sure he said that, and in any case, WoW kinda sucks right now, boring and nothing to look forward to for a very long time.. That's my response to everyone who says this (like we haven't seen it a thousand times already) like it's some kind of debate I WIN argument.

 

Exactly the relavant content in WoW is less than TOR. And I already completed it and am getting burnout after it being around for 6 weeks. They expect us to do this same mindless crap for 10 more months. Sorry, but TOR is just way more engaging right now.

[HeroXx]

How is this thread not locked yet? We are discussing the game that shalt not be named.

[Asuka]

Actually WoW has to compete with SWTOR. WoW's the one losing a steady stream of subs so they had to offer a free game if you sub for a year.

[Endual]

I'm impressed as well, the forum moderators here are usually so trigger happy with their "Thread Closed" button.

[Cenntril]

Good post but i dont think it will make any diffference to people.

 

Yes there are lot of bugs, issue and concerns, my only complaint with the game that destroys my outlook for this game is their customer services... or the non-existant customer services.

 

People generally are happier with an issue if someone has confirmed that it has been recieved and investigated.

 

The fact that BW do not reply to people for over 5 days (if your lucky, and then with a scripted email nothing to do with your problem this is a major concerned of mine), im not saying its any better in every other game... but it is a fundemenetal flaw to most Customer services or Helpdesks.

 

If there is a major issue (they dont do to badly with this one) they need to put it on the patcher and in the forums.

[Hautaaja]

Actually WoW has to compete with SWTOR. WoW's the one losing a steady stream of subs so they had to offer a free game if you sub for a year.

 

Lol.. As if anyone contemplating about quitting would sub for a year even with Diablo 3 added. It's normal promotion for Blizz fans that many dedicated players will appreciate.

[Templeman]

Wow is a great game but I want something different and I like tor alot.

But if you want a comparison here I go.

 

Just a few things off the top of my head.

I loved the mounts in wow. don't much care for them in tor. Hard to compete with riding a dragon.

 

The humor in wow could be funny as hell. Goblin fishing poll still cracks me up. On the other hand such humor in tor would not be welcomed so tor can't win here.

 

Flying mounts in wow. sort of obsessed with that.

 

here is where wow lost me. I did not care about anything other then dumb stuff like getting a dragon mount. I loved the environment but I could not care about the quests. Nothing I did mattered and as much as I loved the Lich King it was hard as hell finding any story about him. I don't care about raiding and there was just nothing for me to care about other then mounts and waiting for the next patch with the new raid I did not care about and could not really play in anyway because of lack of time or group.

 

I pick up tor after being promised story (I need this) and roll up a Sith jug and do you know what I find? The game makes me feel like I am the Lich King and the Jedi will bow before me or I will cut them down! I get to make choices that matter to me. I get t feel like I am a ******. Someplace out there a sith lord swore himself to me and I could have cut him down.

I get tired of this and I "might" go back to wow to keep working on that one thing that should only take me 46 more days of doing stuff I don't really want to do... but i am in no rush and pandas just don't do it for me.

 

Tell then this damn redheaded sith keeps insulting me and racing me to get more kills. I am kinda thinking that she is playing with her life right now. I am really hoping she attacks me at some point.

[barnnabis]

Who cares , the real problem is people just want every game that comes out to play and feel like wow. Let the games be Thier own and play them for what they are , learn to addapt to new systems. In the end if ya don't like it move on. Wow is the worst mmo ever made , it ruined the genere and unleashed a world of lazy gammers in to the mmo world.

[MagusZ]

Why are they invalid? Nothing exists in vacuum and some of the design decisions, both gameplay and world design simply won't hold up under closer scrutiny to that game from which much of their inspiration comes from.

 

It's a software design principal called "Scope Management". They had a release date. Combat logs, high-res textures, all those things were moved out of scope for the release last month. They're all likely still in development, as BW has stated with the high-res texture discussion. But you do need to meet deadlines for games.

 

If i was goona compare TOR with anything it would be TBC WoW...that was the best period for that game IMHO.

 

I've made that same comment in another thread.

 

Having said that, I think you do have to compare the games as they both are _TODAY_ just as you'd compare any other competing products based on the versions you'd actually be purchasing. Think of purchasing a new car and applying the same philosophy - people would expect the 2011 model to match the 2011 model of a competing car that came out in 2004, even though it had 7 years of refinement.

 

You really can't compare cars to in software development. Difference: software evolves. The technology behind automobiles hasn't really changed since Ford first introduced the Model T. Refinement has happened, but the hardware is well known and used.

 

For software, you can't just take a program, decompile it back to source (get all the parts for a car), reskin it (design a new frame to support said parts), recompile it and say "oh look, I have a new game"/"oh look, I have a new car". Blizz still owns the copyrights to it's source code so BW can't just take out what it doesn't want from they framework, code what they want, and be done. It has to do everything from pretty much scratch itself.

 

Well, some features can definitely be pushed back... but missing things like guild progression and guild features? World events? An achievement system? A workable auction house interface (with free text search)? I think these are the type of things that should have been part of launch. No one expected a flu PvP ladder and ranking system on day 1. But some of the standard features, yes.

 

See my comment about scope management. Guild progression wasn't added for WoW till WotLK along with the achievement system (which the game does have, its called the Codex). The GTN went a different way from standard AH interfaces and its proven to be less than desirable. Fixing it will take some time. World bosses are world events, heck WoW didn't even have it's first "World Event" was what, a Christmas event their second year? So also, not released at start.

 

So, on these "standards" you say are needed, only one of them really qualifies (and it was just implemented in a way that user's aren't used and don't like).

 

Forget games for a second, I am talking purely about the respective universe, lore and very fabric of the IP...

 

Star Wars...nuff said.

 

Warhammer...nuff said.

 

WC...erm well we cant really think of anything original so lets kind of copy Warhammer but make it sugar coated and Fisher Price....kind of like Warhammer meets Playschool...

 

Terrible and always has been imo...even back in the days of WC3 et al.

 

Driz

 

They did the same thing with Starcraft and 40k.

 

They didn't create battlefield 3 to compete with Counterstrike source, which is older than WoW is, they released it to be the most innovative and stunning fps in sound, graphics, gameplay, and balance.

 

I'm tired of people thinking FPS games are "innovative". Seriously...

 

Oh, and Battlefield has been "in development" since the first game in its series released as "Codename Eagle" back in 1998 (Battelfield 1942 was released then in '02).

 

It's building on already existing framework vs. developing one from the ground up.

 

The fact is that even if WoW did take years to get to where it is now, people expect the same kind of polish and features in a game that is structured in a similar manner. There is no way in hell anyone can deny the fact that this game resembles WoW VERY much, so much that for many players it REQUIRES some of the same features that Blizzard found out WoW requires after much trial and error.

 

Please edit your statement. "Requires" should be "desirable". You can still play the game without those features. The only "requirement" of an MMO is a interaction between what you ask the system to do, and what the system tells you can be done or what happens. Play an text-based MUDD and see.

Edited January 13, 2012 by MagusZ

[CelestrialFox]

Why does this game need to beat any other game? This game is fun to me, and I don't care who plays or quits. Felt same way when I play Horizons (Istaria) Still like that game too, and it's not popular in anyway.

[Avenox]

I have left wow months ago but the rest of my online buddies is still playing and enjoying it.

 

They won't even give the TOR a shot as they despise the idea of running with light bulbs(citing).

 

 

SW is bit more innovative but it is not any better than the big boy WoW.

 

Yet another massively played time sink. How much time can you spend in front of this title?

Days, weeks, moths? Will it keep you here for years to come?

[Necrolepsy]

I like you.

 

You also better be prepared to be trolled into oblivion by a mass amount of forum complainers and fanboys of either game.

 

Fanboys are usually (low IQ) and are best to be ignored as they help neither game in any way.

[Lethality]

ok so we can compare the games as they are today. ToR was in development since 05 and had what, 150 million as development costs?

 

wow has been in development since: 2001, blizzard had spent 100 million on initial development and over 200 million as of 4 years ago for upkeep and ongoing development since wows release in 04.

 

7 years thats 500 million in development/upkeep costs, if another 4 years added the same 200 million upkeep/development costs as the first 4 years and the 100 million for intitial development.

 

so we have ToR 150 million for development over 6 years.

wow having been in development since 01, thats 11 years, and over 400 million dollars in development/upkeep costs, and 100 million dollars for initial development. so 500 million total.

 

those added years wow has had to establish a glitchy experience, broken pvp and dumbing down of gameplay to make faceroll content to entice a broader market.

 

source for wows annual upkeep costs.

 

of course a game thats been in development since 2001, is continuously being developed for, has had over 500 million spent on development and upkeep, is going to have more content than that of a game that has only been in development since 05 and had 150 million used in development costs.

 

a developer can only deliver so much content in a certain period of time, unless they have had a successful game that funds the development of new content and the extra development teams to produce said content, like wow.

 

if you want to argue that a development team isnt keeping up with whats new, i give you duke nukem forever as an example. they got into the cycle of trying to keep up with the jones' and the game was in limbo forever and bankrupted the developing company. because they kept updating the game to try and stay current. instead of releasing what they had.

 

You have some very shaky rationale, but whatever.

 

I work in an industry where we have to keep up technology very similarly, and a project you're working on could be out of date before it launches. But, you still have to meet at least a skeleton-list of feature advancements over other similar products that have released before you. It's the nature of competition.

 

This goes back to my thinking that... these games, as they are currently designed and built are for too costly and time and resource intensive to be viable in the future. Simply put, it can't take 6 years to create a game. Houses, movies and even skyscrapers don't take that long. A game is unsustainable like that.

 

So if a developer cannot compete and advance with a new product, something needs tone done about the process and method for which they try. Because they will alway be measured comparably, and rightfully so.

[Barathos]

I love looking at the beginning and the end of these threads. (Screw the middle )

 

Why? Because the guys in the beginning were right. Don your flame vest!

[Dyraele]

Why does this game need to beat any other game? This game is fun to me, and I don't care who plays or quits. Felt same way when I play Horizons (Istaria) Still like that game too, and it's not popular in anyway.

 

You will care who plays or quits if you are one of the few that remain. So, to you, not only BioWare, it should matter who quits.

 

That being said, really nice post OP. I love the game so far and don't care what others think since I think the majority like the game. If everyone was quitting it would worry me a lot, but I don't think that is the case.

[Lethality]

You really can't compare cars to in software development. Difference: software evolves. The technology behind automobiles hasn't really changed since Ford first introduced the Model T. Refinement has happened, but the hardware is well known and used.

 

Huh? Technology in cars hasn't changed since the Model T?

 

Ok... let's play along. Every car today comes with a drink holder, a power receptacle, a horn, lockable doors, automatic transmission and more. These are now expected features of a competitive product.

 

And this goes for anything, don't focus on cars. If someone is going to come out with an app to compete with Photoshop, they better damn well be ready to compete with Photoshop as it is today.

 

See my comment about scope management. Guild progression wasn't added for WoW till WotLK along with the achievement system (which the game does have, its called the Codex).

 

But guild management and progression of today is a little like the automatic transmission and drink holder I mentioned in the car example. It doesn't matter that WoW didn't have it, they have it now. That is quite simply an item that should have been "in scope."

 

World bosses are world events,

 

No they aren't.

 

heck WoW didn't even have it's first "World Event" was what, a Christmas event their second year? So also, not released at start.

WoW had Winter Veil their very first year - Christmas 2004.

 

But this probably an area that can be developed... eventually they will need to make the word feel more like a place than a game. Luckily James Ohlen recently talked about exactly that:

 

The bright spot here is the remarks James Ohlen recently gave to Gamespot:

 

In addition to that we have a team we’re calling the events team, and I can’t go into too much detail, but we’ll be talking more about it in the future. We have a team that is focused essentially on providing content and events throughout the galaxy that make the Star Wars: The Old Republic galaxy a living, breathing galaxy where things are changing

[Drakos]

Huh? Technology in cars hasn't changed since the Model T?

 

Ok... let's play along. Every car today comes with a drink holder, a power receptacle, a horn, lockable doors, automatic transmission and more. These are now expected features of a competitive product.

 

And this goes for anything, don't focus on cars. If someone is going to come out with an app to compete with Photoshop, they better damn well be ready to compete with Photoshop as it is today.

 

 

 

But guild management and progression of today is a little like the automatic transmission and drink holder I mentioned in the car example. It doesn't matter that WoW didn't have it, they have it now. That is quite simply an item that should have been "in scope."

 

 

 

No they aren't.

 

WoW had Winter Veil their very first year - Christmas 2004.

 

But this probably an area that can be developed... eventually they will need to make the word feel more like a place than a game. Luckily James Ohlen recently talked about exactly that:

 

The bright spot here is the remarks James Ohlen recently gave to Gamespot:

 

Quoted for Truth and Great Justice.

[zeroid]

I have been seeing more and more posts on both the TOR and WOW forums comparing the 2 games, and the response from either side is turning into a weird groundhog day thing as they always fall into basically the following trend.

 

“TOR is rubbish, WOW do everything so much better.”

“TOR has only been out 2 weeks, of course there are issues”

“Are you saying we should be comparing TOR to WOW vanilla? That is stupid, you can’t compare a game in 2011 to a game in 2007, you have to compare it to WOW as it is now”.

 

And so on and so. Basically on every thread where people are complaining, threatening to quit, or bigging either game up a little too much, the above posts are present 90% of the time.

So, what is the truth? can you compare either game honestly, without showing too much of either fanboy fanaticism...well as far as I am concerned, no, you can’t. here’s why?

-----

Ok, wow came out in 2004. As far as MMO’s go, it pretty much beat any others out at the time. It appealed to a huge already established WC fanbase as well as bringing new people into the market. Was it innovative, well no, not really. A lot of what it did had already been done before, but it did do a lot of it better. It was a lot bigger than most and by the simple size of the world, it was mind blowing to most people. However, it was not without its problems; huge class inbalance, mass server crashes, servers down for weeks, very little end game, no proper PvP, rubbish UI, no mods at the time.. along with a host of other things.

Now, Look at the TOR Launch. No-one can deny the launch has been a lot smoother than...just about any other MMO. Yes there are server queues but at least they are working, lag is rare, or very little. But, the difference is that BW knew this was going to happen. No-one at Blizzard could have known the level of uptake they were going to get so that is an issue that could have been forgiven.

Now some say that you should compare the 2 as they are at release, but in all honesty you can’t do that. You can’t compare games that were released 7 years apart, technology has changed, developers have changed, expectations have changed. The PvP on TOR isn’t very good ATM, ok, it was rubbish in WOW at the beginning but Blizzard got better, and now people expect more.

 

Ok, so compare WOW now with TOR. Hmm...no.

 

The reason being is simple. WOW took 4 years to build originally, and since then they have had 7 years of consistent development. That is 11 years of work, and the logs, complaints and suggestions of 10million subscribers to base their development on. That is a lot of time, a lot of money and an unprecedented amount of work that you probably will never see again in a game development. So, as a result coming to TOR that has had only 3 years development and saying we want X, we want Y, Wow has X, Wow does Y better..it’s really unrealistic. 11 years development versus 3....you will not get exactly the same.

Yes, they could have literally copied everything WOW has, but apart from the fact it is still a lot of work, it also means that TOR becomes WOW. Speaking as someone who quit WOW, I don’t want exactly the same, I want SW, not WOW. Yes, there are things that WOW did well and I want SW to have, but they should still be different enough that I know. As an FYI, Rift tried to copy too much of WOW and you know what everyone did, they quit and went back to WOW saying it was too alike...so lessons should be learned.

 

All you can do is play the game, and decide if it’s ok. A lot of the things being asked for will eventually be delivered or at least the BW equivalent will be, but the comparisons being done are frankly ridiculous. Combat Logs are not game breaking, The AH is not game breaking, the bugs with nodes is not game breaking, the poor spaceship missions are not game breaking, Addons are not game breaking, even the unbalanced PvP is not game breaking and I play a JK who suck.

 

If I was to say the one thing that is game breaking, it is the ability delay, and the BW team have said this is top of their list to fix.

 

To the WOW players that keep complaining about Wow has this, WOW has that...I suggest you go back to WOW. Not in a nasty way, but simply the reality that if you want a game with 11 years of development, then you need to go play one. Come back to TOR in 8 years, and if it’s still here, it will probably have all those things you listed.

 

As A tech person, server hardware is 100x more advance then, internet speed is way faster than compare to 2004, developer tools and tech is 10x better than 2004, and bioware utlizing all these new tech in there data center compare to wow, i played wow in 2004 servers were crashing a lot but atleast i never had any delay b/w my abilities with my then 500k dsl internet connection, now with swtor having 50mb connection speed i still lag as hell.

 

and its 2012 why there is no guild bank or ingame calendar for guild event and invites in this game...... do not make sense to me

[Notannos]

Hi Everyone!

 

Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts. As this thread generally is a discussion more about another MMO and is not entirely focused on Star Wars™: The Old Republic™, we've decided to close this thread.

 

We encourage you to continue discussing the game in any related topic.

 

For example you may want to discuss the new trailer that was released featuring the Rakghouls: Patch 1.1 - Rise of the Rakghouls Trailer