In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Kennkra]

Hopefully some third party software will be able to give us folks that care about performance real-time data pretty soon.

 

There are plenty of games that are raid friendly, so far this isn't one of them.

 

I mean the thing was released without a Ready Check. Are you kidding me?

 

Once they realize that real time data isnt the end of the world, there isnt going to be suicides or stuff like that.

 

Bioware generaly tooks a long time to notice things, but at least they notice.

[ferroz]

Ahh, I see your confusion now.

 

Yeah, you will see what was used by Enemy player A on you, but you will not see what Enemy player A does to anyone else, nor what Teammate player B does to enemy player A, or any mob you're fighting. Only information done to and by your character will be in the log.

No, your interpretation of that that quote is speculative at best.

 

There are 2 statements, and there's nothing in that quote that actually means that the limitations of one applies to the other. Nor does the word "you" (which can be either a plural or singular 2nd person pronoun) actually mean that you will only see your own personal information and not the information of some collective version of "you" (group, or op)

 

 

So, again: 2 statements:

 

• With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed.
  
• We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.
  

 

the former has a limitation that isn't specifically personal, since "you" isn't strictly personal

 

The latter isn't actually modified by the first in any way; there's no way to know whether it will even be limited to some collective version of "you" ... that may be what they do, but if they were to implement a full combat log that allowed you to even see people you weren't grouped with, that would in no way disagree with the latter statement.

[dmanlong]

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.

 

 

So tell me if they don't want players to be able to judge other players why would they set it up so their information can be seen in downloadable log?

 

He is referring to In game judging. Putting a log into a 3rd party analyzer allows you to properly evaluate performance.

 

What happens in pugs and normal raids when a add-on like recount is present is usually something like people spamming DPS meters and kickiing those below a specific threshold. They want to avoid this. They do want combat log evaluation from sites like WoL.

 

Combat logs capture all information.

[Vydor_HC]

No, your interpretation of that that quote is speculative at best.

 

There are 2 statements, and there's nothing in that quote that actually means that the limitations of one applies to the other. Nor does the word "you" (which can be either a plural or singular 2nd person pronoun) actually mean that you will only see your own personal information and not the information of some collective version of "you" (group, or op)

 

 

So, again: 2 statements:

 

• With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed.
  
• We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.
  

 

the former has a limitation that isn't specifically personal, since "you" isn't strictly personal

 

The latter isn't actually modified by the first in any way; there's no way to know whether it will even be limited to some collective version of "you" ... that may be what they do, but if they were to implement a full combat log that allowed you to even see people you weren't grouped with, that would in no way disagree with the latter statement.

 

 

No, actually if you put together the entire conversation and the entire canon of data and converstaions on the matter, it's pretty clear what they are doing. But actually when you go back over that statement it IS straight forward, what what killed you and what you killed. Says nothing about other players data being in the log.

[Drewser]

No, your interpretation of that that quote is speculative at best.

 

There are 2 statements, and there's nothing in that quote that actually means that the limitations of one applies to the other. Nor does the word "you" (which can be either a plural or singular 2nd person pronoun) actually mean that you will only see your own personal information and not the information of some collective version of "you" (group, or op)

 

 

So, again: 2 statements:

 

• With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed.
  
• We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.
  

 

the former has a limitation that isn't specifically personal, since "you" isn't strictly personal

 

The latter isn't actually modified by the first in any way; there's no way to know whether it will even be limited to some collective version of "you" ... that may be what they do, but if they were to implement a full combat log that allowed you to even see people you weren't grouped with, that would in no way disagree with the latter statement.

 

But when you read the full quote I posted, the interpretation that there will be a full log makes no sense.

 

Why would they supply that when he says right before it, "We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you."?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Drewser

[ferroz]

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.

 

 

So tell me if they don't want players to be able to judge other players why would they set it up so their information can be seen in downloadable log?

Because he acknowledges it's usefulness to figure out what is being done wrong.

 

If you actually read that with an open mind (rather than interpreting it in a way that you've decided is correct) you can see that he states 2 desires that are in conflict and does not say that one trumps the other.

[ferroz]

Says nothing about other players data being in the log.

indeed, it says nothing about it, either way.

 

So speculating about it is great... assuming that your speculations are correct because it's the way you want it to be is silly.

[Drewser]

He is referring to In game judging. Putting a log into a 3rd party analyzer allows you to properly evaluate performance.

 

What happens in pugs and normal raids when a add-on like recount is present is usually something like people spamming DPS meters and kickiing those below a specific threshold. They want to avoid this. They do want combat log evaluation from sites like WoL.

 

Combat logs capture all information.

 

Makes no sense, as your view would lead to people saying, "last time I grouped with you I went over the log and your DPS sucked, get lost."

 

Combat log captures whatever the programmers want it to capture.

[Blotter]

Soooo, 90+ pages of proof that people want to be able to use it to judge others and compare epeens? Lovely. The info will be available very easily to people/guilds that wish to share their info between and amongst one another for the purpose of figuring out what went wrong in a raid or how to do better in Ops or PvP. It won't be available to you if a person doesn't want to share it because they don't know you and/or don't trust you not to be a complete ******. Waaaah....BW is protecting the community from people running around being elitist jerks and the elitist jerks don't like it. Cry us a river. Half of the elitists are peolpe who run out for the latest exploit or hack anyway so they can pretend they're better than everyone else. Guess what...if the boss went down and you didn't wipe, nobody cares that you had .5 dps more than they did.

 

And hey, for those of you interested, you will get to see how you got your face melted in PvP by [insert class], so rejoice...hallelujah...you'll be able to post all the "nerf this, it melted my face" screenshots your little hearts desire. Can't wait to see you blow up the forums with it and generate flame wars to get the game started on the ring-around-the-rosie nerfbat cycle. Yippy!

[dmanlong]

No, actually if you put together the entire conversation and the entire canon of data and converstaions on the matter, it's pretty clear what they are doing. But actually when you go back over that statement it IS straight forward, what what killed you and what you killed. Says nothing about other players data being in the log.

 

Programming a combat log that only capture each players specific data would not happen. Combat logs capture all information that happens within a specific players range. In-game it will be filtered so you can only see your data.

 

On your computer, in a file, a combat log will exist that has all player data captured. This data can be uploaded to a 3rd party site for analysis.

Edited March 6, 2012 by dmanlong

[Vydor_HC]

indeed, it says nothing about it, either way.

 

So speculating about it is great... assuming that your speculations are correct because it's the way you want it to be is silly.

 

I really don't think it's speculating much, but you're right, people can and will read whatever they want into phrases to make themselves feel better.

 

I have not once though seen or heard Bioware talk about a combat log though that would display any information other than the players...no where, but people can hope and dissect quotes as much as they want.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Blotter]

Because he acknowledges it's usefulness to figure out what is being done wrong.

 

And this is why they are letting that kind of data be written to disc. There would be no reason to implement it in that manner if that data was in any way, shape or form otherwise available in the game.

 

If you actually read that with an open mind (rather than interpreting it in a way that you've decided is correct) you can see that he states 2 desires that are in conflict and does not say that one trumps the other.

 

It is abundantly clear both from what they've said about the system they are implementing itself AND from what they have said are their intentions that they have no desire to let people see, in real time, what others are doing or is being done to them...just by and to themselves. Arguing otherwise pulls everything completely out of context and just gets peoples' hopes up that it will somehow be something other than what they are quite obviously saying it will be.

 

.....

Edited March 6, 2012 by Blotter

[dmanlong]

Makes no sense, as your view would lead to people saying, "last time I grouped with you I went over the log and your DPS sucked, get lost."

 

Combat log captures whatever the programmers want it to capture.

 

How often does this happen? Never. They are trying to avoid real time pug kicking and snap judging. They are not trying to ban long term raid analysis. It is a lot more work to upload a combat log. This method is generally used by top end guild trying to min/max performance.

[Vydor_HC]

Programming a combat log that only capture each players specific data would not happen. Combat logs capture all information that happens within a specific players range. In-game it will be filtered so you can only see your data.

 

On your computer in a file a combat log will exist that has all player data captured. This data can be uploaded to a 3rd party site for analysis.

 

Combat logs capture what ever the programmer wants it to capture...they are the ones in control of the output. If they do not specifically code in to display certain events...it will not happen.

[Drewser]

Because he acknowledges it's usefulness to figure out what is being done wrong.

 

If you actually read that with an open mind (rather than interpreting it in a way that you've decided is correct) you can see that he states 2 desires that are in conflict and does not say that one trumps the other.

 

I don't care if they have a full log or not so I listened to with an open mind. If they want to "eliminate judging" which they stated they did, it makes no sense to release a full downloadable log. If a guild is having problems killing something, I am sure most would share their logs to figure out where the problem is.

 

Again, I don't care if they do release a full log but listening to it live yesterday, it seemed clear it was going to be a personal log.

[Akash]

Soooo, 90+ pages of proof that people want to be able to use it to judge others and compare epeens? Lovely. The info will be available very easily to people/guilds that wish to share their info between and amongst one another for the purpose of figuring out what went wrong in a raid or how to do better in Ops or PvP. It won't be available to you if a person doesn't want to share it because they don't know you and/or don't trust you not to be a complete ******. Waaaah....BW is protecting the community from people running around being elitist jerks and the elitist jerks don't like it. Cry us a river. Half of the elitists are peolpe who run out for the latest exploit or hack anyway so they can pretend they're better than everyone else. Guess what...if the boss went down and you didn't wipe, nobody cares that you had .5 dps more than they did.

 

And hey, for those of you interested, you will get to see how you got your face melted in PvP by [insert class], so rejoice...hallelujah...you'll be able to post all the "nerf this, it melted my face" screenshots your little hearts desire. Can't wait to see you blow up the forums with it and generate flame wars to get the game started on the ring-around-the-rosie nerfbat cycle. Yippy!

 

It's not about anything like that. It's about improvement and progression. It's about maximizing the potential of a class, and its also about finding bugs or things that are broken.

 

Along with a real-time combat parser, you also need a practice range where you can test different gear/rotations/consumables/buffs.

 

If you've been around MMO's long at all you will know that some of those "clutch" stats, skills, buffs, or expensive consumables simply don't function properly. Without quantitative data to illustrate to the community, getting them fixed has a way of getting pushed under the table, or their existence flat out denied.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Akash

[Thenmal]

Not sure if this was posted somewhere in the many pages previous...

 

As a developer I would love to see an example of one of these combat logs as soon as possible so I and others can begin working on applications to parse the data and present it in meaningful ways.

 

Thank you

[Blotter]

Combat logs capture what ever the programmer wants it to capture...they are the ones in control of the output. If they do not specifically code in to display certain events...it will not happen.

 

Indeed. I think it's pretty obvious from their statements that you will be in full control of whether YOUR information is shared and that, for a guild to assess how their 16 people did in a raid, all 16 will need to upload their combat log data file into the 3rd party site so it can be compiled by whatever software runs the site.

[Drewser]

Programming a combat log that only capture each players specific data would not happen. Combat logs capture all information that happens within a specific players range. In-game it will be filtered so you can only see your data.

 

On your computer, in a file, a combat log will exist that has all player data captured. This data can be uploaded to a 3rd party site for analysis.

 

The fact you keep repeating this over and over shows you have very little understanding of programming.

 

They can design it to log/report WHATEVER they want.

[Taroen]

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game.

 

 

So tell me if they don't want players to be able to judge other players why would they set it up so their information can be seen in downloadable log?

 

Because they're trying to appease the people crying about how unfair it would be to get judged on their performance by the other people that are grouped with them and depend on them to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

But the moment that detailed combat logs hit, there will be a parser created for it, and it makes no difference, really. The people who use metrics as a tool for analyzing their own performance and that of others in their groups will still use them. And the people that stroke their epeen over their uber-pwsome-leet-dps will still be idiots that no sane guild leader would allow in a raid.

 

Personally, I rather like the idea of people like that outing themselves. It lets me steer clear of them.

[Akash]

Because they're trying to appease the people crying about how unfair it would be to get judged on their performance by the other people that are grouped with them and depend on them to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

But the moment that detailed combat logs hit, there will be a parser created for it, and it makes no difference, really. The people who use metrics as a tool for analyzing their own performance and that of others in their groups will still use them. And the people that stroke their epeen over their uber-pwsome-leet-dps will still be idiots that no sane guild leader would allow in a raid.

 

Personally, I rather like the idea of people like that outing themselves. It lets me steer clear of them.

 

Indeed. Low DPS can be fixed with some mentoring. Shady attitude cannot.

[Blotter]

It's not about anything like that. It's about improvement and progression. It's about maximizing the potential of a class, and its also about finding bugs or things that are broken.

 

What they are implementing will fully allow this. It jsut won't allow YOU to look at another person's data and "do it for them" by telling them "you're doing it wrong, baddy." You will be able to do it for yourself and for anyone who wishes to share their data with you, so there's no issue other than the fact that you won't be able to "spy" on a nother person's performance without their permission and then judge them for it.

 

Along with a real-time combat parser, you also need a practice range where you can test different gear/rotations/consumables/buffs.

 

They're letting us put target dummies on our ships. Not 100% clear whether it's a perk earned with legacy or just hey, here, have some target dummies.

 

If you've been around MMO's long at all you will know that some of those "clutch" stats, skills, buffs, or expensive consumables simply don't function properly. Without quantitative data to illustrate to the community, getting them fixed has a way of getting pushed under the table, or their existence flat out denied.

 

Again, why anyone is pretending that this system won't provide he data is ridiculous. You will have the quantitative data. Guilds will share their quantitative data within the guild. Some may even compile data across guilds to look at certain issues. Heck, the community on a particular server might even compile their data to look at certain issues, but nobody will be obliged to share their personal data that doesn't want to, which protects them from what we all know happens when people can look at other peoples' data without permission. Don't give me that "If you've been around MMO's long at all" nonsense...I have...and I've seen all the behavior this system will help prevent, even if it doesn't prevent it completely. "So and so won't share their data, put him on the black list" will become the new "that dude's dps stinks, put him on the black list," mark my words. In the end though, pretending you won't have the data from people wiling to share is a lie and a farce.

 

.....

[MisterData]

Why would you need to lie, unless you were slacking, being a leech.

 

Those are the types of people that don't want the logs public

[Xneco]

Those are the types of people that don't want the logs public

 

exactly...

[Quraswren]

If combat logs are implemented in the way it sounds I''m good with it.

 

The more HC raiding groups can simple ask there group to upload their files to a 3d party site for analysis.

 

All the rest from PUGs to simple heroics don't have to worry about the epeen seekers.

 

Keep it controlled by the individual players. The real Min/Max players will have no problem sending there info to their raid leaders. The ones that don't want to may not be the raiders you thought they were anyway and yet still doesn't mean there not good.

 

Seems a good compromise all across the board and keeps the drama down.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Quraswren