In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Raeln]

What you fail to understand is that people enjoy this and it is part of their gameplay. Both being scrutinized and scrutinizing others performance. Entire Guilds want this. God players and bad want this. What's the problem?

 

What is wrong with that?

 

Have it as an option that you can turn off. Would that be better?

 

I'm not convinced that as many players want this as you seem to believe.

 

Oh I'm sure there are quite a few raid leaders that do, but damage meters should never be a requirement for normal mode content.

[CapitaFK]

I'm not convinced that as many players want this as you seem to believe.

 

Oh I'm sure there are quite a few raid leaders that do, but damage meters should never be a requirement for normal mode content.

 

It's a requirement for progression guilds whose sole purpose is to aim for server and/or world firsts.

 

You enjoy playing the way you do, which is fine. Some of us actually like the mathematical aspect of min/maxing with spreadsheets and stuff (we spreadsheet nerds are who progression guilds look to). Your sense of accomplishment at beating a raid boss through expertly played mechanics is the same as our sense of accomplishment at pushing that extra 10-20 DPS in the same fight. Why take away from either camp when you can cater to both?

Edited January 17, 2012 by CapitaFK

[Kabjat]

Combat logs are essential to raiding. If you refuse to understand why, then it's only because of your own wilfull ignorance.

 

 

I cannot believe there is over 50 pages of discussion on this topic.

 

I have to agree with the above quoted comment. I am starting to think that the 'fors' and 'againsts' in this debate are both missing a fundamental point here.

 

The 'For Combat Loggers' simply wish to accurately track the performance of their group, and rightly so. Whatever side reasons they have for wanting them is fine too but that is the MAIN POINT on their side. The 'againsts' are taking umbrage to some folks' elitist sounding and exclusionary tone, automatically calling them 'bads' and 'having something to hide'.

 

The "Against Combat Loggers' have an idea in their minds that making such information available promotes elitism in an environment that they simply wish to keep casual. Perhaps they had bad experiences in wow with jerkish kids spamming recount all over the place.

 

Personally, for my part, I tend to get my hackles raised when I read some of the arrogance in these posts. And it's arrogance on both sides. Much of this could be avoided if people would just step down, un-puff that chest, and put away those peacock feathers and take a moment to examine how you come off to others.

 

Regardless, I think it would behoove many of those against this feature to google what a combat log actually is.

 

COMBAT LOGS ARE NOT THE SAME AS RECOUNT. I really do think some of the posters on this thread don't know the difference....or even, do not even know what a combat log is.

[Joeymtl]

Without data, I'm unable to judge the accuracy of your claim. WAIT THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR

 

It's a perfectly fine analogy. You can raid without meters. You can drive without airbags. Doing without either increases both the likelihood of and consequences of failure.

 

Airbags aren't going to teach you how to drive.

[Waypoc]

I'm part of the hardcore side (shocker?) and I'm going to explain using fights in this game why combat logs are necessary to the game's end game advancement in mechanics, fun and difficulty. A universal combat log, for those unknowing, is NOT a damage meter. It's NOT a healing meter. All it is, simply, is a log of combat that details everything that happened in either solo play, group (4 man) play, warzone play or Operation play. It is true that while a universal combat log can be used to formulate addons, using WoW as an example, such as Skada. It's important to note that Skada is not simply a damage done meter, it tracks pretty much everything to do with combat - some of which can actually help a player improve. For example, the 'damage taken' meter gives an accurate reading of how much damage you took from a particular boss or player in either group, warzone or Operation play. I do not see how this is a bad thing. It shows that if you take a lot of damage, which is avoidable, then you should take the necessary procautions to reduce that number.

 

Moving onto why a universal combat log is needed though: I will use various bosses from HM FPs to show why a universal combat log and something like Skada would only make the game better.

 

Commander Jorland in Boarding Party:

The engineer has no aggro table and 90,000 hp~

The medic has an aggro table and 90,000 hp~

Commander Jorland has 120,000 hp~

 

The enrage is 150 seconds:

400,000 / 150

2666.66 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 888.88

 

Now this is a tightly tuned enrage, which also requires interrupts on the Medic (else he gets healed) and exceptional healing. If you wipe to the enrage there are multiple reasons why:

 

1) Interrupts on medic weren't occuring, meaning he was taking longer to kill

2) DPS wasn't high enough

3) Healing didn't allow DPS to properly rotate their max DPS rotation

4) People weren't focusing properly

5) Someone died - out of their own stupidity/healing issue

 

That's 5 reasons why a boss didn't die due to a strict enrage.

 

Krel Thak in Battle of Ilum:

Krel Thak has 210,000 hp

Krel Thak will summon 5 waves of adds with 5k hp each (there are 4 adds) [total 100,000 hp]

 

The enrage is 120 seconds:

310,000 / 120

2583 / 3 (2 dps + 1 tank) = 861

 

Again, this is a tightly tuned enrage and the most important part of this fight is how you handle the start and the adds: you burn the boss with all CDs at the start, and you need to kill the adds ASAP when they spawn or they will kill people. If you wipe however, again, there are multiple reasons:

1) DPS wasn't high

2) Melee killed themselves due to Krel Thak's shield

3) Adds managed to kill someone because they weren't killed fast enough

4) People were not spread out making the AoE Krel Thak does hit multiple people

5) Healing was too low - didn't let people do their best DPS rotations (see 1)

 

This is another fight where there are a lot of variables as to why you may wipe.

 

These are just two examples but I can give more, however I'm sure people can see why I believe a universal combat log is necessary - allowing an addon like Skada in this game would not make it worse. Since when has more knowledge been a bad thing? I don't understand why people would want to be able to get away doing the bare minimum: in games I try to be the best I can be, because it makes me happy and that is how I get my fun.

 

Looking into the camp of why people wouldn't want combat logs however, because I think it's fair. As far as I can work out people don't want combat logs because of the following:

- Number of times a meter is linked unnecessarily

- Number of times a meter is linked to insult another player

- Destroys a community in dungeons as no-one cares to be social and just wants to perform

- The player who is against combat logs pays $15 a month

 

I do agree with the first two. I think meters that are linked unnecessarily are a hassle and really shouldn't happen. In the cases they do happen (where a tank in WoW would link damage done meters after a trash pack) it is better to simply ignore said player and prove them wrong where it counts: bosses. Trash is mostly easy anywhere, so I see no reason why linking meters on trash is at all necessary. Again, when meters are linked to insult another player I'm cautious of a response. I ask myself "it is necessary?" and "how many chances has the player been given?" For example, if I link meters on a boss and ask a player why his or her DPS/damage done is low, too low infact for how they *should be* performing, and I recieve no answer it makes me a little angry because I would honestly like to help people get better. The reality is: people don't like being told they're wrong, and thus will never listen to criticisms (which is why listening to criticisms and taking it on board is something EVERY progression guild asks of its members).

 

For the other two: where it 'destroys a community' or 'a player has a right to play how he or she wants because they pay to play'. I think these are flawed arguments. The community in WoW, any MMO really, has always been bad. You will always (READ: ALWAYS) have a separation between the hardcore and casuals. Mostly for a variety of reasons: hardcores run through content with the aim goal being 'are we the first?' Casuals, in my opinion, take it a lot slower but could still very well do maybe (if we're using SWTOR difficulties) normal and hardmodes. The ideology that because someone pays to play this game is flawed as well. While they do contribute towards the game's financial assets, it does not mean they're allowed to get "carried" or "taken" through content.

 

A universal combat log is not simply about being able to post DPS meters, it is about being able to display all sorts of information that would help a guild progress. If a boss requires constant interrupting or a person dies (ultimately leading to a raid wipe) such as Reliquary of Souls in Black Temple and someon misses their interrupt, I should be allowed to see who did it so I can ask them why - if the answer was "I lagged" or "I didn't have enough energy [rogue]" or "I was too slow" - then I'll ask them not to do it again. I'm not going to get angry with people I raid and trial with over 1 or 2 minor mistakes, constant mistakes however need to be logged because in a hardcore progression guild it simply wont be the aforementioned with underperforming members. It's a reality.

 

To help the SWTOR community understand their "plight" of meters, namely the damage ones because it's the only ones people seem to be referencing, I decided to post a little gem on MMO-Champion (WoW fansite): thread.

 

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

 

The point is made. /thread

[Limecake]

I would be all for combat logs, I know I'd freak out if I had 4 lightning sorc's in my OP group and I had to watch them to determine which lightning based attacks they are using right and which lightning based techniques are missing. Especially when everything they do looks like force lightning.

 

I've been kicked for not doing proper DPS before, but I'd rather play with someone more my speed or who would be willing to work with me on my rotation rather than some elitist who only sees me as a number on the screen.

 

a combat log by itself isn't bad, just bad guilds.

[Mineria]

It's a requirement for progression guilds whose sole purpose is to aim for server and/or world firsts.

 

I know some Swedish guys that would laugh out lout at your claim

[Raeln]

It's a requirement for progression guilds whose sole purpose is to aim for server and/or world firsts.

 

You enjoy playing the way you do, which is fine. Some of us actually like the mathematical aspect of min/maxing with spreadsheets and stuff (we spreadsheet nerds are who progression guilds look to). Your sense of accomplishment at beating a raid boss through expertly played mechanics is the same as our sense of accomplishment at pushing that extra 10-20 DPS in the same fight. Why take away from either camp when you can cater to both?

 

You cannot cater to both unless the tool in question is restricted, to say - hardmode instances.

 

Implementing a damage meter without any restrictions that is effective in tracking everyone in the group/raid will have negative impacts on the community and future content design. That is not up for debate.

 

It's interesting that you took the angle of "progression guilds interested in server/world first" - I think you'll find that statement will garner the least amount of compassion from most other players or developers. Almost no one outside the circle of the most elite of elites cares about server/world firsts. If this is all damage meters are needed for - I would never allow them in the door.

 

I recognize that hardmodes need them - I really do. I'd be fine with them being enabled only inside hardmode operations.

 

They should not be in the normal portion of the game in any capacity other than a self-only meter to gauge your own performance. I'd rather they not be in the game at all but I know it's an unwinnable battle at this point.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Raeln

[drwolfman]

will this include heals as well? i only read like 2 pages of post and the last post..screw going through 50 pages to find this answer if its already been said.

[Herbertllew]

Airbags aren't going to teach you how to drive.

 

Yes, in that way logs are better than airbags. But if you don't like airbags, use "speedometer." Or "windshield wipers." Or "rand mcnally atlas."

 

None of them is necessary for driving. But they provide information useful to driving safely, improve the quality of information you receive about your driving, or provide information about how you should be performing relative to your goals.

 

But enough of the analogy.

 

It's pretty simple: Encounter design becomes pretty binary if you don't provide information that players can use to assess and change their team's performance. Either an encounter is doable, in which case it's easily defeated, or it's not, in which case the team has no information about what to do to improve its performance.

 

In the latter case, some people will beat their heads endlessly against the wall in the absence of information (as i'm sure people did in games without combat logs.)

 

I, however, would prefer to do PvE content where the challenge comes not from trying to hit a pinata with a blindfold over my eyes, but from examining my team's performance and adjusting to improve.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Herbertllew

[BountyHuntard]

I know some Swedish guys that would laugh out lout at your claim

 

I had already asked you to provide links of said hard core guilds that don't use some form of player assessment whether it be meters or by other means.

[CapitaFK]

I know some Swedish guys that would laugh out lout at your claim

 

Paragon, Exodus, Blood Legion, and all the other top guilds in the world use parsers.

[Krazeh]

Implementing a damage meter without any restrictions that is effective in tracking everyone in the group/raid will have negative impacts on the community and future content design. That is not up for debate.

 

Yes it is.

[KorrigTS]

Response to limiting the communities tools so that it doesn't self-implode or deteriorate as so many seem to suggest:

 

This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it.

- Linus Torvalds

[Raeln]

Yes, in that way logs are better than airbags. But if you don't like airbags, use "speedometer." Or "windshield wipers." Or "rand mcnally atlas."

 

None of them is necessary for driving. But they provide information useful to driving safely, improve the quality of information you receive about your driving, or provide information about how you should be performing relative to your goals.

 

But enough of the analogy.

 

It's pretty simple: Encounter design becomes pretty binary if you don't provide information that players can use to assess and change their team's performance. Either an encounter is doable, in which case it's easily defeated, or it's not, in which case the team has no information about what to do to improve its performance.

 

In the latter case, some people will beat their heads endlessly against the wall in the absence of information (as i'm sure people did in games without combat logs.)

 

I, however, would prefer to do PvE content where the challenge comes not from trying to hit a pinata with a blindfold over my eyes.

 

Damage meters lead to more efficient character output.

 

More efficient character output leads to more enrage timers, to maintain "challenge".

 

More enrage timers leads to more scrutinizing on damage meter results, after wipes.

 

More scrutinizing damage meter results leads to negativity within the community.

 

More negativity within the community leads to a poor playerbase.

 

A poor playerbase leads to ....

Edited January 17, 2012 by Raeln

[Joeymtl]

So what swtor content right now hasn't been completed in an acceptable amount of time because the unavailability of metrics? Edited January 17, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Raeln]

Yes it is.

 

No it is not.

 

Developers will have to up the design metrics or content will be deemed too easy by those using the meters and refined combat rotations.

 

If the developers assume everyone is using a meter, then everyone will have to use a meter - it's not optional at that point. I call that a negative impact on the community.

 

Note: I'm not even talking about the puggers that require ridiculous DPS amounts just to get in to the raid.

[CapitaFK]

It's interesting that you took the angle of "progression guilds interested in server/world first" - I think you'll find that statement will garner the least amount of compassion from most other players or developers. Almost no one outside the circle of the most elite of elites cares about server/world firsts. If this is all damage meters are needed for - I would never allow them in the door.

 

Well that's the problem though. I've mentioned time and again that playstyles vary, and hardcore raiding is also a playstyle that should not be alienated. So what if only a few guilds aim for server/world first? That doesn't mean other guilds don't play for the purpose of min/maxing. I can almost guarantee there's at least one or two guilds per server -- probably per faction -- whose sole purpose is to be server first, and even more with a min/max mentality. That's a lot of guilds. Elitism, sure. You'll get that with any game. We already have it in this one without parsers. Just drop into PVP and look at all the elitists there who bash on lowbies just because they're level 50 and got lucky with Champion bags. The benefits of parsing outweigh its negatives.

[BountyHuntard]

Damage meters lead to more efficient character output.

 

More efficient character output leads to more enrage timers, to maintain "challenge".

 

More enrage timers leads to more scrutinizing on damage meter results.

 

More scrutinizing damage meter results leads to negativity within the community.

 

More negativity within the community leads to a poor playerbase.

 

A poor playerbase leads to ....

 

The problem in this case isn't the utility, it's in fact the enrage timer.

[KorrigTS]

Damage meters lead to more efficient character output.

 

More efficient character output leads to more enrage timers, to maintain "challenge".

 

More enrage timers leads to more scrutinizing on damage meter results.

 

More scrutinizing damage meter results leads to negativity within the community.

 

More negativity within the community leads to a poor playerbase.

 

A poor playerbase leads to ....

 

Hi Raeln. Meet my friend Slippery Slope. He's a logical fallacy. You can learn more about him here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Aryzyra]

Damage meters lead to more efficient character output.

 

More efficient character output leads to more enrage timers, to maintain "challenge".

 

More enrage timers leads to more scrutinizing on damage meter results.

 

More scrutinizing damage meter results leads to negativity within the community.

 

More negativity within the community leads to a poor playerbase.

 

A poor playerbase leads to ....

 

 

Bringing strangers together on the internet causes conflict. To resolve this issue, this game should be deleted.

[Herbertllew]

Developers will have to up the design metrics or content will be deemed too easy by those using the meters and refined combat rotations.

 

If the developers assume everyone is using a meter, then everyone will have to use a meter - it's not optional at that point. I call that a negative impact on the community.

 

Your argument amounts to saying that the only way that developers can challenge players is to withhold information from them.

 

I look forward to playing your hard-mode "no graphics or sound" MMO. That sounds like a ton of fun.

[Aryzyra]

So what swtor content right now hasn't been completed in an acceptable amount of time because the unavailability of metrics?

 

5 content hasn't been completed due to the unavailability of metrics.

[MightyAl]

Wooo. I like this.

[Ratajack]

It's a requirement for progression guilds whose sole purpose is to aim for server and/or world firsts.

 

You enjoy playing the way you do, which is fine. Some of us actually like the mathematical aspect of min/maxing with spreadsheets and stuff (we spreadsheet nerds are who progression guilds look to). Your sense of accomplishment at beating a raid boss through expertly played mechanics is the same as our sense of accomplishment at pushing that extra 10-20 DPS in the same fight. Why take away from either camp when you can cater to both?

 

And if the "damage meters" provided your personal output only, you would still be able to try to push for that extra 10-20 DPS in YOUR performance. Why should improving YOUR PERSONAL performance require you, or anyone else, to see numbers for anyone else in the group?