In case you missed it: Combat logs are coming, but only for yourself

[Setanian]

Now you attack as children while you stand there, with you fingers planted firmly in your ears going" la la la la la la" instead giving Valid reason why we shouldn't have a meter or parser?

 

Reduced to arguing just to Argue. This is sad.

 

Meters and parsers help you win the game. Are you allowed to look at your friends cards in a game of poker? The dealers? No..

 

Yet, you want to be able to look at everyone else details on the game. You want to be able to parse everyone else's data.

 

Maybe you should ask bioware to implement another add-on that just kills the raid boss for you?

 

We have been through this so many times. Bioware gave you a raid to win. You whine because you can't win it without add-ons and god knows what else. Yet, other people are well able to have the same raid now, on farm.

 

Needing add-ons to win == bad players in my opinion.

[Setanian]

Without a combat log, this game will be exactly what you claim to fear. Faceroll.

 

Or it will be completely inaccessible and hemorrhage players at cap.

 

Those are the options in an information void.

 

Other players seem to be winning the endgame raids without problems. Why can't this other chap? I guess there are good raiders and...

[Chosenxeno]

I don't think anyone where is interested in gaining 'cred' with you.

 

The fact is, while you call those games 'cumbersome garbage' others find them to be more a challenge than, say something like 'kiddie MMO' WoW, which takes 'easy-mode' to the very extreme.

 

I certainly wouldn't claim to be a better player than you, how-ever the fact that you cannot play such a game without all the easy-mode additions, does indicate such a scenario.

 

You also 'claim' wildly that these easy-mode additions are 'the standard'. I would suggest, that for you and people like you, they are the standard. You expect to be handed everything on a plate, without once engaging your brain. And, that is fine, so long as you don't force your easy-mode on me.

 

I prefer challenging raids not raids that are care bear friendly and require nothing more than a face roll of the keys to win. Your mileage obviously differs.

 

 

A masochist has appeared lol. Nope not today Set. I made you leave this threafd for atleast 2 days:cool:

[TheHauntingBard]

Currently the game has no combat log.

The trash is one big AOE fest , it's worse than WOTLK.

It requires no thought at all, you just zerg it.

This is as dull and easy as it can get.

 

 

Bosses have an enrage timer, the only thing I know for sure is that at least on of the DPS sucks if it hits the enrage timer.

The boss mechanics are as simple as it can get.

They only thing hard/night mare modes add is more health and more damage.

 

 

The whole design screams recount since all Bioware does is forcing people to min/max as much as possible to beat the enrage timer.

There is no innovation when it comes to design, there is no 'different' approach with specs.

You're a healer you spec A, you're a DPS and well spec B does the most there you got it.

Now shut it stim up and use pots .

 

 

I can't read what a debuf does either, the icons are too small.

Gladly take recount to see what dots the boss shoots around or am I suppose to guess it?

But hey at least I got this dispel option, I wish I could use it effectively but no.

 

 

When you design stuff like this you better add recount to a game since obviously you lack the inspiration to work around this type of encounters.

 

 

Not every MMO needs add ons and recount, how ever when you make stuff like this yeah you might as well add it.

Edited January 16, 2012 by TheHauntingBard

[Aryzyra]

Other players seem to be winning the endgame raids without problems. Why can't this other chap? I guess there are good raiders and...

 

Correct. There are hardcore folks and then there are the rest. The hundreds vs the millions.

 

The hardcores will take 100 wipes in stride. The rest will lose interest in as few as 2, especially if they don't understand why they're dying.

 

The information void will hurt pugs worst of all.

 

Unless it's easy enough that poor rotations, poor gearing, and poor talent choices can still win. Which means faceroll.

[Chosenxeno]

Here's what I do know:

 

I was in Rift. If you seriously don't think Parsers impact subs then you are blind. The longer it takes to put in in the more will leave. This is not me threatening the Developer by the way.

 

The reason I've been in here diligently fighting for LFD, Macros and Parsers is because I have seen the impact. You have just been playing garbage like EQ.

 

People like you and your fighting against anything that's makes the game more accessible made that game drop from 100+ servers to maybe 20. You force it's Developer to become apprehensive instead of letting them do what makes sense based on an already successful template.

 

When they did add the aforementioned items it was too late. People were already unsubbing. Then the same people who fought against accessibility left it because "no one is ever on".

 

This is gasp going to be my final post here on this topic. I appreciate the mods keeping this one open for as long as it has been.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Chosenxeno

[Limedust]

Why are you so worried what other people think? Such negativity leads to inferiority complexes.

 

If someone is not happy with the way you play, why play with them at all?

 

Personally, I don't care what anyone says here in favor of combat logs. I don't agree with them. If they (the pro-log players) want my help, they get it on my terms, not theirs.

 

What a great team mate you must be.

[Skerry]

OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers.

 

Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds).

 

And this is fine, guilds can do whatever they want within the context of their guild.

 

However, this is perfect for the regular day to day pugging and grouping and what not.

 

 

It gives those players exactly what they wanted - a way to measure their progress and to thoerycraft and all of that; kudos.

[Joeymtl]

I find funny that the elitist and/or good players are asking for performance metrics.

 

In my opinion, good players are players that are able to tell if someone is doing good or bad without the help of any tools. You all have something called eyes and a brain.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Joeymtl

[Setanian]

A masochist has appeared lol. Nope not today Set. I made you leave this threafd for atleast 2 days:cool:

 

Dammit, I thought you'd still be on the short-bus.

[FloatingFatMan]

OR you will have guild leaders requiring logs to be submitted at the end of each raid so they can be reviewed by leader and officers.

 

Where there is a will, there is a way (at least in guilds).

 

Whereupon they will be told to f--- off and mind their own business.

[Aryzyra]

I find funny that the elitist and/or good players are asking for performance metrics.

 

In my opinion, good players are players that are able to tell if someone is doing good or bad without the help of any tools. You all have something called eyes and a brain.

 

It's a different perspective. It's taking "good play" (i.e. moving out of fire, using interrupts if needed, etc) as a baseline. Differentiating between good and better play. Double-checking to see if theorycrafted ability priorities coming through in practice.

 

As opposed to, say, normal pug play. Where someone pressing buttons most of the time and moving out of fire sometimes is pretty good.

[Setanian]

Here's what I do know:

 

I was in Rift. If you seriously don't think Parsers impact subs then you are blind. The longer it takes to put in in the more will leave. This is not me threatening the Developer by the way.

 

Any facts or metrics to prove this?

 

The reason I've been in here diligently fighting for LFD, Macros and Parsers is because I have seen the impact. You have just been playing garbage like EQ.

 

Did you ever actually play EQ? If so, how far in did you raid?

 

People like you and your fighting against anything that's makes the game more accessible made that game drop from 100+ servers to maybe 20. You force it's Developer to become apprehensive instead of letting them do what makes sense based on an already successful template.

 

Any facts or metrics to prove this? Eq was fine until WoW came along and gave us easy-mode.

 

When they did add the aforementioned items it was too late. People were already unsubbing. Then the same people who fought against accessibility left it because "no one is ever on".

 

Facts? Metrics?

 

This is gasp going to be my final post here on this topic. I appreciate the mods keeping this one open for as long as it has been.

 

Oh! Ok, bye But I know you'll be back !

[Vydor_HC]

I find funny that the elitist and/or good players are asking for performance metrics.

 

In my opinion, good players are players that are able to tell if someone is doing good or bad without the help of any tools. You all have something called eyes and a brain.

 

Yup, I've said this in other threads. Reality is the good players will continue to do content with or without logs. People are just addicted to having all that info to parse. It's nice, but not necessary.

[Setanian]

Yup, I've said this in other threads. Reality is the good players will continue to do content with or without logs. People are just addicted to having all that info to parse. It's nice, but not necessary.

 

They should just place a button at the entrance to raid in zone which says 'EasyMode: Press here for the phat lewtz' or 'HardMode: Press here for the phat lewtz'

 

:)

[Joeymtl]

It's a different perspective. It's taking "good play" (i.e. moving out of fire, using interrupts if needed, etc) as a baseline. Differentiating between good and better play. Double-checking to see if theorycrafted ability priorities coming through in practice.

 

As opposed to, say, normal pug play. Where someone pressing buttons most of the time and moving out of fire sometimes is pretty good.

 

In that case, it becomes a need for noticing the players who are playing the best they could, which I can understand for guilds that want only the best players. It's not needed to spot the slackers unless they one day implement raids with dozens of players needed to complete it, then would become harder to notice them.

 

I beleive that the majority of people simply want to not play with leechers.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Joeymtl

[MasterKayote]

It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

 

 

That's how I interpret the quote, anyway.

 

(EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized)

 

And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason.

 

This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster.

 

Agreed, and hope it stays that way. I dont care how much it helps during some fights its not worth the detriment of the entire community and its team play just to have an easier time with a few bosses. Its NOT needed, and thats proven by the fact we dont even have combat logs now and people are clearing content just fine. The rest is just blanket excuses to cover up the fact they just want to boss people around and belittle everyone who doesnt do as they say or what THEY think others should doing.

 

This is a perfect mid ground IMO. Get your own, personal logs so you can maximize your own rotation. Stop focusing so much on who did what, trust your teamates, and just worry about what YOU can do the next time to help your group win. Its not all about numbers anyway.

[vochore]

I personally would love to see some kind of parser added in even if it was just a display on my g-19 keyboard.i have been playing eq2 since launch and been using the player made act"advanced combat tracker" since it went live and it is very helpful in finding out what you as an individual can do to max out your dps in a fight.

 

like if i change this and this what does it do to my dps,does it make it better or worse.

and if your going to say people use this in grp to maybe say...well your not doing enough dps so your gone....only ******s do that and you really wouldn't want to grp with them anyways.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Now you attack as children while you stand there, with you fingers planted firmly in your ears going" la la la la la la" instead giving Valid reason why we shouldn't have a meter or parser?

 

Reduced to arguing just to Argue. This is sad.

 

No seriously. Your argument fell flat and there is nothing I can refute.

 

You say, "You need to give me a valid reason!"

 

I did.

 

Valid reason 1:

It can create conflict among the player base.

 

Valid reason 2:

It can hamper the creativity of the development team.

 

Valid reason 3:

It can lead to spec stagnation.

 

Valid reason 4:

It is not needed as the game is in operation at the current moment without issues.

 

Your reason for the combat log literally is:

 

"WoW is great! WoW had a combat log! I want it! I have grown used to it."

 

Those aren't valid reasons. If they were then my refutation would be:

 

"WoW is terrible. This game isn't WoW. I don't want it. You don't need it."

 

Everyone who disagrees with you you attack and belittle. You exclaim that they must have liked Vanilla WoW or played only low pop games. You claim that they are masochists and that they are inferior.

 

I did play low pop games. They were still fun.

I did play WoW. Your point is?

I am not a masochist. Though I am not suffering due to a lack of a log.

 

I know what my highest damage rotation is for my class and spec. I figured it out without a log. I can complete Hard Mode instances. I have yet to attempt an Operation however as I am not yet fully geared with all tier 2 armor.

 

I didn't need a log to tell me that I wasn't doing enough damage when I first did an Essles Hard Mode. It was evident because the mob's enrage timer went off. The log didn't need to show me that, the fact that he suddenly glowed all red and wiped the floor with us did the job.

 

I didn't need a log to tell me my highest damage rotation in Combat spec either.

 

Strike - Low damage, used to build focus.

Zealous strike - Also low damage, used to build a lot of focus.

Precision Strike - Moderate to High damage.

• Triggers Precision for 6 seconds causing 100% armor penetration.
  

Blade Rush - Moderate damage.

• Triggers and Ataru Strike
  
  • Activates Combat Trance
    
    • Activates Immaculate Force
      
    • Activates a 10% damage increase on my next focus spender.
      

Blade Storm - High damage due to an automatic critical strike, ignores armor.

Master Strike - High damage, automatic root on target, ignores armor for 2/3 hits.

 

I found this out by simply paying attention to my powers and a few test duels.

[Voidence]

Anyway don't dream. We'll have a "public" combat log system one way or another (i.e. when the addons will be there). It is virtually impossible to do top level PvE without it, and most of the big guilds will ask for it anyway. Moreover, it'd render applicants testing useless since they could lie about their data if it was personal. After all nothing's better than a full combat log to see what, why and who failed at doing something.

 

Lies... How do I know this? Because players have been downing content in this game and others before it without all this mumbo jumbo, So dont LIE and try to make it FACT. Its not and it never will be NEEDED to down content.

[Voidence]

Any facts or metrics to prove this?

 

 

 

Did you ever actually play EQ? If so, how far in did you raid?

 

 

 

Any facts or metrics to prove this? Eq was fine until WoW came along and gave us easy-mode.

 

 

 

Facts? Metrics?

 

 

 

Oh! Ok, bye But I know you'll be back !

 

 

 

And where are your facts about needing them? Again Show me your FACTS

 

Because as fas As I know and can tell people ARE downing bosses without. So again you want someone to prove they are bad, Then you PROVE for a FACT that they are NEEDED.

 

Oh! Ok, bye But I know you'll be back as well.

[ferroz]

It was sort of tucked at the end of one of Georg's posts, and while I noticed it, I haven't seen any threads on the matter.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

 

 

 

That's how I interpret the quote, anyway.

 

(EDIT: Emphasis not mine. In the original quote, the word "your" is italicized)

 

And it's all right by me. The people who want logs say they need meters to let them gauge their own performance as a point of personal pride. Few have been willing to admit they want them for any other reason.

 

This should satisfy pretty much everyone -- both the people who want logs to help them better themselves, and the people who don't want the culture of elitism and exclusion that meters foster.

in English, the word "your" is a 2nd person possessive pronoun that can be either singular or plural.

[lordgracy]

I bet you any amount of money they are doing it like this because they cant handle performance issues. Having more in the log then just you would bring their code to its knees.

[Voidence]

I bet you any amount of money they are doing it like this because they cant handle performance issues. Having more in the log then just you would bring their code to its knees.

 

Or here is a thought, If they do it the way some people are saying, maybe they are doing it that way because they dont wanna split the playerbase. Then again its just a thought, You might wanna try it some time, you know think things through. Again just a thought.

[ferroz]

Did you ever actually play EQ? If so, how far in did you raid?

Yes; No, I was a casual.

 

Any facts or metrics to prove this? Eq was fine until WoW came along and gave us easy-mode.

Eh, EQ was 90% tank and spank before wow

 

It started off with gloriously complicated raid strategies like

1. Send in the melee and healers
   
2. once enough of the melee have died so that you won't lag out the raid, send in the casters.
   
3. ???
   
4. Win.
   

 

But even back then EQ had combat log parsers, including live parsing.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ferroz