tickolol Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hey, if you are so good at PvP, why do you need a gear advantage? I don't. The others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dystopic Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 IMO PVP stats are bad for games. I think that all expertise will do is limit new people. In your OP you claim that PVP is open and anyone can join but honestly, if you could kick people out for being undergeared we all know it would happen. I think PVP and PVE gear should be on par with each other. This creates more mobility in gameplay and allows people to reasonably try new things. Keep pve/pvp centric set bonus (not simply +10% damage but ability augmentation) and leave it at that to separate gear, that's all you need. But expertise is simply wasted stats in PVE and a huge barrier to entry in PVP. I personally don't care if a raider wants to enter a WZ every so often as long as our gear is on par and i don't have to PVE for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehash Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) You don't like PvPing just to PvP? You need gear (and the associated advantage over other players it provides) for it to be fun? Methinks you got the wrong idea about balance (and fun for that matter). Edited January 12, 2012 by Trineda remove quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 And there's the problem right there. In PvP you have to ADAPT to the other player. The gear has an impact of the game, yes, but that's the point. But a huge factor is if you can actually adapt to what the other team is doing. If you think you can just join a warzone and look at it like a dumb raidboss where you stand behind your cover pressing your Q and E spell all around town until you see an inquisitor use force storm and think it's a new phase and you have to move, then you have gotten PvP all wrong. And if you think that gear shouldn't matter because you're afraid that the other person would rage because you own it up in a warzone, then you aren't suited for any other game than peggle. None of that makes any sense at all. First you say PVP should be determined by skill and then you say that means gear needs to matter more in PVP than PVE. There is no way to adapt to your opponent having better gear. Again, it's an MMO. The gear grind comes with the territory. I don't mind gear having some impact on PVP. But right now we are in an absolutely absurd situation where PVP gear double dips compared to PVE gear. It makes no sense whatsoever. If you really want to keep PVE gear out of PVP my solution accomplishes that better than your solution does. If this is really just about wanting to farm noobs even if you are awful because of your better gear then I guess your solution is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tickolol Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 You don't like PvPing just to PvP? You need gear (and the associated advantage over other players it provides) for it to be fun? Methinks you got the wrong idea about balance (and fun for that matter). I love PvP. And I love the PvP system TOR has now, but grinding for items is also a part of it. Just like raiders like to get new gear for their characters. Works both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radicaloz Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 IMO PVP stats are bad for games. I think that all expertise will do is limit new people. In your OP you claim that PVP is open and anyone can join but honestly, if you could kick people out for being undergeared we all know it would happen. I think PVP and PVE gear should be on par with each other. This creates more mobility in gameplay and allows people to reasonably try new things. Keep pve/pvp centric set bonus (not simply +10% damage but ability augmentation) and leave it at that to separate gear, that's all you need. But expertise is simply wasted stats in PVE and a huge barrier to entry in PVP. I personally don't care if a raider wants to enter a WZ every so often as long as our gear is on par and i don't have to PVE for it. How would you feel if you had to do nightmare mode ops and then some guy who pvps gets the same gear as you? or if you pvp a lot and someone killed scripted mobs to get the same stats as you? you wouldnt feel special at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehash Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I love PvP. And I love the PvP system TOR has now, but grinding for items is also a part of it. Just like raiders like to get new gear for their characters. Works both ways. Except it is PvP, where the only thing that should separate players of the same class is their skill. I think there should be PvP progression, just that it shouldn't involve gear. Make ladders, create new wardrobe items, let PvPers show off their skill when its not meaningless because of gear discrepancies. (This problem is made even worse by the fact that PvP gear is granted on a completely RNG basis). Edited January 12, 2012 by Rehash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Battlemaster (PvP) have purple level 58 mods/armoring/enhancement, same as Rakata gear (PvE). We'll ignore the question whether they should be the same as that's a different issue. If you're in full Rakata gear, your DPS may have something like ~19K HP. A brand new level 50 character has 12-13K HP in random PvE gear. It'd be obvious in one glance that you stand no chance against this guy wearing top PvE gear. A full Battlemaster geared character will currently have something like 16K HP with around 12% PvP bonus. For the sake of argument we'll say +12% damage and -12% damage taken is like having +25% HP (it's probably better than that honestly), so if you convert it to PvE this guy is equivalent of 20K HP against the same character. The Battlemaster character will obviously dismantle a fresh level 50 worse than even a full Rakata gear character since he's wearing the best gear in the game for PvP. Now, here's where people are getting confused. They look at a full Battlemaster character and see 16K HP, and decide that guy doesn't look so tough. In fact, this guy is far more fearsome than a 19K HP character in full Rakata gear since he has a 12% PvP modifier, and complain about Expertise being overpowered when the Battlemaster character dismantles them. Yet, they wouldn't complain about being dismantled by a character in full Rakata gear since their 19K HP is easy for anyone to see. Now why do these two set of gear have such different stats? Because if you assume equal level PvP gear should be better than PvE gear at PvP (and worse at PvE), Expertise allows you to do this. A full Rakata character is still worse than a full Battlemaster character (19K versus 20K) in PvP, but better at PvE (19K versus 16K, since Expertise has no effect on mobs). I made up the numbers for the purpose of illustration and in reality they're probably a lot closer both ways, but hopefully it should illustrate why this stat exists. Edited January 12, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repefe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How would you feel if you had to do nightmare mode ops and then some guy who pvps gets the same gear as you? or if you pvp a lot and someone killed scripted mobs to get the same stats as you? you wouldnt feel special at all. How can he get same gear ? The skin should be different. This obsession with stats on gear is splitting the community apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How would you feel if you had to do nightmare mode ops and then some guy who pvps gets the same gear as you? or if you pvp a lot and someone killed scripted mobs to get the same stats as you? you wouldnt feel special at all. Which is why flat expertise values on all PVP gear makes perfect sense. Get the PVE gear out of PVP, but don't create a double-dipping gear advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroNeutral Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 IMO if expertise sticks around it should never be as ludicrous as resilience has become... with 44% or higher damage reduction and such against players. It should always be 0-10% variance imo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 my 2 cents i do not think PvP gear should be viable for PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 IMO if expertise sticks around it should never be as ludicrous as resilience has become... with 44% or higher damage reduction and such against players. It should always be 0-10% variance imo... Full champion gear is just around 10% PvP bonus. I estimate full Battlemaster will be around 12% since it's only about 8 more expertise per piece (50 versus 42 or something like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qeuzolt Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You don't like PvPing just to PvP? You need gear (and the associated advantage over other players it provides) for it to be fun? Methinks you got the wrong idea about balance (and fun for that matter). PVPing to PVP is only going to keep people playing for so long. There needs to be some sort of reward for doing it. Look at open world PVP right now or the lack there of... Everyone will be at the same gear level once everyone gets to the highest level of gear... In the current game it seems a bit OP because not many people have full BM gear, but think about when rated WZ's come out, hopefully people will be mostly BM geared and there will be groups of 8 people playing together against similarly geared players. That is where the skill based PVP should start. Everyone that thinks PVP should just be an even playing field from day one just wants welfare epics and everything given to them now. That isn't what playing MMO's are about, BW wants you to keep playing, people want rewards for playing, if you can put in the time and effort of getting the gear you should be on an even level of other people that have done so. If you can't then you should be at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kheldor Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I've read countless of threads about people complaining about Expertise and why it should be removed. Imo; it should never. When you raid, you achieve something when you kill that last boss in whatever raid. You should also be able to get that joy out of PvPing. Grinding your PvP gear, getting high valor ranks is what makes the difference of a PvP player and a PvE player. Remove expertise and you just have those good ol' PvE'ers with their full epic tier 1000 gear facerolling everyone. There should be a difference from the "hardcore" PvP players who have dedicated time to grind their PvP gear, and the PvE players who have struggled to down a boss. Mainly the whiners are the 13 year old kids which can't adapt to other players, their mind is restricted to an encounter where the same thing happens all the time. Every. Single. Time. Read this guys, it may help you understand one of the most important things in PvP. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=61363 I have also read that expertise in PvP should be removed, and replaced with a PvE expertise. Here is a scenario of why this shouldn't happen: "LF DPS last spot Black talon HM minimum 300 PvE expertise" Now, this blocks people out of the dungeon, in PvP everyone can join, it's no restriction on gear. But if you implement that, no one would ever get into dungeons anymore. So imo, that's, let's call it "retarded". "But BW, my spell isn't working like I want it to". Hold your horses guys, let the developers rest a bit. Lvl up a new toon then, if you're so mad. The game hasn't been officially out for 1 month yet. Good post, and actually you've converted me on the Expertise issue, as I was against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dystopic Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 How would you feel if you had to do nightmare mode ops and then some guy who pvps gets the same gear as you? or if you pvp a lot and someone killed scripted mobs to get the same stats as you? you wouldnt feel special at all. Honestly would not care. I think it would be better for the game. Just create PVP centric set bonuses on PVP gear and vice versa. The gear would still be geared towards whatever genre you got it from but without it being impossible to use elsewhere. I think this "feeling special" is a bit silly. Less barriers to entry means more people trying new things. More people trying new things means more people pvping and that means more fun for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tickolol Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 IMO if expertise sticks around it should never be as ludicrous as resilience has become... with 44% or higher damage reduction and such against players. It should always be 0-10% variance imo... There's a difference between removing Expertise, and toning it down a bit. The PvP'ers should always have an advantage on the PvE'ers coming into warzones, as the PvE'ers should have on PvP'ers starting PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merras Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Remove expertise completely. It just ruins the game. Or create an expertise bracket also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehash Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 PVPing to PVP is only going to keep people playing for so long. There needs to be some sort of reward for doing it. Look at open world PVP right now or the lack there of... Everyone will be at the same gear level once everyone gets to the highest level of gear... In the current game it seems a bit OP because not many people have full BM gear, but think about when rated WZ's come out, hopefully people will be mostly BM geared and there will be groups of 8 people playing together against similarly geared players. That is where the skill based PVP should start. Everyone that thinks PVP should just be an even playing field from day one just wants welfare epics and everything given to them now. That isn't what playing MMO's are about, BW wants you to keep playing, people want rewards for playing, if you can put in the time and effort of getting the gear you should be on an even level of other people that have done so. If you can't then you should be at a disadvantage. So new 50s should be forced to toil through hours of gear imbalance just to get on an even playing field to be able to compete? That makes no sense. I also don't buy the people won't pvp without gear rewards argument. Games like dota are immensely popular without any progression at all. I am not talking about rewarding epics to anyone. I don't want there to be any stat imbalances between players of the same class in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There's a difference between removing Expertise, and toning it down a bit. The PvP'ers should always have an advantage on the PvE'ers coming into warzones, as the PvE'ers should have on PvP'ers starting PvE. Which, agian, is why flat expertise values on all PVP gear makes perfect sense. This tones down the impact of expertise among PVPers while still keeping PVE gear out of PVP. You could even boost the other stat values on the better PVP armor if you really wanted to (as long as it was still inferior to equal-tier PVE gear). That wouldn't particularly bother me. It's the double dip that's lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So new 50s should be forced to toil through hours of gear imbalance just to get on an even playing field to be able to compete? That makes no sense. This is another good difference between PVE and PVP. In PVE you do not have to spend hours getting owned over and over by NPCs in order to gear up. Hard gear checks in PVP make no sense whatsoever. No one really benefits from a system where new PVPers have to get owned over and over and over for hours upon hours in order to become vaguely competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dystopic Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So new 50s should be forced to toil through hours of gear imbalance just to get on an even playing field to be able to compete? That makes no sense. I also don't buy the people won't pvp without gear rewards argument. Games like dota are immensely popular without any progression at all. I am not talking about rewarding epics to anyone. I don't want there to be any stat imbalances between players of the same class in pvp. this is key. PVP should have viable gear. But it should not effectively lock people out and expertise will. Go into a WZ and face someone in PVP gear. It sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kheldor Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I didn't read your thread because there is no need to. PVP gear has stats besides expertise. It doesn't need to double-dip. Put a flat PVP value on ALL PVP pieces. That makes PVE gear unuseable in PVP but doesn't double-dip to reward gear whoring too much. In PVE you get better gear that gives you better stats. In PVP right now you get better gear that gives you better stats AND a pvp stat so it double dips. That's dumb. Put 50 expertise on all pvp gear no matter what level. Problem solved. You should have read the OP post, because it makes a lot of sense, whether the only thing you do is PVP, or even just pvp regularly but not all the time...because your own post is absolutely without sense. The higher end pvp gear is on par with raid gear, and it it also has a pvp stat (Expertise). This is not double dipping, which is a silly statement, unless you fit into the good post that "Leiloni" made about the occasional PVE'er who wants to dip a toe into pvp now and then and you have all your uber PVE raid gear, and don't want to get spanked by the Battlemasters that earned their PVP gear, in...*gasp* pvp...and also have the expertise that goes along with it. What YOU want is for PVP'ers to be forced to raid so that YOU won't feel bad because you haven't spend any time pvp'ing, and you want a chance in Level 50 PVP that you've spent no time earning, when it comes to gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tickolol Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 this is key. PVP should have viable gear. But it should not effectively lock people out and expertise will. Go into a WZ and face someone in PVP gear. It sucks. Well, get the gear yourself then? I really don't see the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GameTwine Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Lazy people want this to happen. Simple as that. They want everything to be handed to them tough luck this is real life,in-game,in starwars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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