Why the state of PvP mitigation is a good thing

[chainsawsamurai]

...and why we are lobbying for the wrong kinds of changes.

 

If you take a moment to compare the PvP maps in this game to others, it wont take you long to realize that it is designed to be faster paced. Spawn points are closer to the action, maps are smaller, and even though you can't mount-up it is very fast to get back into the engagement.

 

If Shield/Defense applied to all manner of attacks and damage Tanks would be too strong. Too unkillable with more than just a little bit of support. In a game with smaller maps and more immediate action upon respawn you would quickly find yourself in a situation where you couldn't kill one tank before the other one respawned and started punching you in the talk hole. This is extremely unbalanced.

 

We should not be trying to make this kind of change happen. It would have absolutely catastrophic ramifications for PvP in this game.

 

The changes we should be asking for are one of two options:

 

--Reevaluate all of the attacks in the game and assign them Attack Types which make more sense.

 

The most notable of the bunch right off the bat are Rocket Punch and the Operative knife attacks (and their mirrors). These attacks should clearly be reclassified as Melee and should be mitigated/avoided by Shield and Defense statistics. This is a small example, and there are more, but you see what I'm getting at.

 

Going through the classes and abilities like this would allow the best fine tuning of each class' attacks to ensure a good balance of attacks which can and cannot be defended against.

 

--Reevaluate Tank PvP sets and their Talent trees to not be so reliant on defensive mechanics.

 

As Powertechs, we're the hardest hit by this as Shieldtech is the only tanking tree that relies on Shielding not only for Resource management but also for offensive power. Oil Slick is virtually useless in PvP and there are a lot of points to spent specifically on one type of defense (the tree has ten whole talent points in it devoted to Shielding).

 

We are not the only tanks who would need changes like this to the talent trees.

 

Additionally Tank PvP gear needs to be entirely recreated. As it stands they provide very little benefit in PvP. This could be done a number of ways, but some examples are: More Armor than the DPS sets (armor is still very useful in PvP), More HP, swapping defensive Stats for more offensive ones, etc.

 

 

Comparatively, either of those is a lot more work for the developers than fiddling with a few lines of code to allow Defense/Shielding to apply to everything. Again, that is actually a pretty awful idea if you put a little thought into it. We should not be arguing for the Devs to take the "easy wrong" over the "hard right."

 

Thanks for reading.

[ericdjobs]

But it's not fair whatsoever.

 

If DPS classes are able to gear up with stats that effect ALL PLAYERS (crit and surge) then defensive stats should be effective against all attacks. My defensive stats are taking up all the stat allocation budget on my gear, but I'm getting about 20% of the mileage I get out of DPS gear.

 

If DPS is allowed to increase their DPS through DPS stats in PVP, I should be allowed to increase my survivability through tank stats. If every single piece of my gear is top-end epic, and every single piece is full to the brim with defensive stats; I should be neigh unkillable with a healer. That's how it SHOULD be, because I can't kill anyone myself!

 

 

Let me put it this way; X amount of DPS stats allows me to do X more damage in X amount of time.

 

It should work the same for defensive stats; X amount of defensive stats allows me to receive X more damage in X amount of time. Right now, it's not working like that..here's an example. Let's say 50 crit and 50 surge rating will allow me to do an extra 10% more damage in a 30 second period or whatever. 50 defense and 50 shield should then of course allow me to take 10% more damage before I'm dead, right? But no, instead, 50 shield and 50 defense more realistically allows me to take maybe 2% more damage, because they aren't affecting anything.

 

DPS stats are useful 100% of the time. Defensive stats are useful, what, 25% of the time in PVP? But yet there's the exact same amount of defensive stats on PVP gear that there is DPS stats. If it's going to be so much less effective, they need to drastically increase the amount of defensive stats on PVP gear, or increase the expertise on tank sets.. to make the stats equal to DPS in terms of effectiveness.

 

I honestly do not thinking allowing shields to proc off all attacks would be 'game breaking' in the slightest.

Edited January 14, 2012 by ericdjobs

[chainsawsamurai]

Did you even read it?

 

I didn't say we shouldn't lobby for changes, but making Shield/Defense apply to everything is not the right answer.

 

It certainly would be game breaking. Already, with just a little bit of support and heals I'm nigh-invulnerable with DPS gear on and Ion Cylinder.

 

If my tank stats applied to everything and I were in tank gear I would be unkillable. Period.

 

This is a faster paced game. You couldn't kill one tank before another showed up. Attempting to make any meaningful progress against a tank would be futile and Huttball comes down to "Who's tank can get the ball first."

Edited January 14, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Whimsicali]

Did you even read it?

 

I didn't say we shouldn't lobby for changes, but making Shield/Defense apply to everything is not the right answer.

 

It certainly would be game breaking. Already, with just a little bit of support and heals I'm nigh-invulnerable with DPS gear on and Ion Cylinder.

 

If my tank stats applied to everything and I were in tank gear I would be unkillable. Period.

 

This is a faster paced game. You couldn't kill one tank before another showed up. Attempting to make any meaningful progress against a tank would be futile and Huttball comes down to "Who's tank can get the ball first."

 

 

You are making suggestions without accounting for item budget beyond simply using DPS gear. BW already said they wanted to prove how pvp tanking can be done right. Having dps item budget allocation adding 100% benefit - diminishing return vs. tank item budget adding maybe 20% benefit - diminishing return is pure stupid.

 

Additionally, beyond the tank pvp gear stat allocation issue, tanks are already taking a massive dps hit for a trade-off that has an unbalanced gain/loss ratio.

 

I would like defense stats to increase my ability to tank proportionately in ratio to the amount of dps increase DPSer's gear nets dps increases; is that really hard to understand? Let me say it another way just to drive the point home, I would like tank stats to increase my ability to take damage against all classes just as dps stats increase their ability to do damage to all classes EQUALLY. Ceteris paribus, gear should cancel out and class balance should kick in. Currently, this is not the case; all things are not equal.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Whimsicali

[Lokai]

did you miss what said during conferences? they dont want pvp to end quickly...in fact wanted exact opposite they talked about it extensively. They don't want ANY class able to 2 shot someone,or a class to kill another class inside of 1 stun, or CC chain. This was pretty much talked about and if this continues to be there point of view, i suspect we'll see alot of damage nerfed way down, or expertise reducing damage by a HECK of alot more then it does now. However i agree that shields should ba absorbing damage from all attacks this is just a flaw in design of tanks in pvp.

[chainsawsamurai]

did you miss what said during conferences? they dont want pvp to end quickly...in fact wanted exact opposite they talked about it extensively. They don't want ANY class able to 2 shot someone,or a class to kill another class inside of 1 stun, or CC chain. This was pretty much talked about and if this continues to be there point of view, i suspect we'll see alot of damage nerfed way down, or expertise reducing damage by a HECK of alot more then it does now. However i agree that shields should ba absorbing damage from all attacks this is just a flaw in design of tanks in pvp.

 

Politicians and salesmen talk. Fact of life. There hasn't been a single MMO or Expansion to an MMO that has ended up being half of what they put in the Design Document. There never will be. It is a sad truth of game development.

 

The game that was delivered doesn't work that way and more than a cursory glance at how their WZs are laid out and how quickly you can get into the action after a death suggests a game very contrary to what they said they wanted to make.

 

The two-shotting issue is already being addressed. The only people capable of putting out that much damage within the span of a stun are abusing consumable stacking. That goes away in 1.1. Damage and Healing numbers are going to come way down as a result.

 

The time it takes for a player to die and then rejoin the action right where he left off in Huttball is pretty quick. In Voidstar it is faster. In Alderaan it is practically instant for the left and right speeders. In any of these situations a Tank and Healer can already hold out until help arrives unless it is the most withering fire available. Should mitigation become as powerful as applying it to everything there would be no chance of downing the pair before help arrived. Ever.

 

A salesman pitched you a product, you bought that product, and it is very clearly not the product that was pitched. I'd say I'm sorry, but I'm not. It happens all the time. It's the American Way.

[Amp_]

The shield should work across all damage types. I'd be willing to have the effectiveness of the shield toned down to be in line with working against all damage types, so as not to become overly effective.

 

You said it yourself. The PT ST is very reliant on shielding attacks and that's a lot of points invested into it. I shouldn't be spending a third of my points that only work half the time. That's a huge investment.

 

I loved my ST. It was my favorite of three. However, after having it brought to my attention that shield does not work against all damage, I dropped it for AP. I'd rather have my dps work all the time, than my shield work some of the time.

 

I don't want god mode engaged, but I would like to see more of a return in investing that many points. Because as it stands right now I just don't see the return from it being worth the cost if shield isn't effective against all damage types. Which is unfortunate because I was looking extremely forward to tank pvp.

[Delekii]

None of the current PvP warfronts would work with damage any slower than it already is, so that point is pretty much moot.

 

 

In Civil War, if damage is any slower, it will be literally impossible to take a gun point in the time between a character dieing and coming back to the same point, provided there is a 4 4 split on the side with 2 guns. Actually, assuming both sides are reasonably smart, there will probably be a significant number of games where the third gun, whichever it happens to be, won't ever be taken in the first place.

 

In bombing run, it will be practically impossible for any team to breach the first door. There is a tipping point again, whereby if damage is reduced beyond a certain point, it will be literally impossible to gain control of one or the other doors before reinforcements arrive.

 

In Huttball, if damage is reduced any further, the scoring team will almost always be the team that picks up the ball first. It is already extremely difficult to take the ball from a well coordinated team, in that it pretty much relies on taking out the ball handler during a cc rotation, while his escape is down. Any slower damage, and that will be very difficult.

 

 

Ultimately, no matter their stated intent, there is no way they can possibly slow down PvP damage without breaking the warfronts. They are already on the cusp in Civil War and the bombing one.

[chainsawsamurai]

None of the current PvP warfronts would work with damage any slower than it already is, so that point is pretty much moot.

 

 

In Civil War, if damage is any slower, it will be literally impossible to take a gun point in the time between a character dieing and coming back to the same point, provided there is a 4 4 split on the side with 2 guns. Actually, assuming both sides are reasonably smart, there will probably be a significant number of games where the third gun, whichever it happens to be, won't ever be taken in the first place.

 

In bombing run, it will be practically impossible for any team to breach the first door. There is a tipping point again, whereby if damage is reduced beyond a certain point, it will be literally impossible to gain control of one or the other doors before reinforcements arrive.

 

In Huttball, if damage is reduced any further, the scoring team will almost always be the team that picks up the ball first. It is already extremely difficult to take the ball from a well coordinated team, in that it pretty much relies on taking out the ball handler during a cc rotation, while his escape is down. Any slower damage, and that will be very difficult.

 

 

Ultimately, no matter their stated intent, there is no way they can possibly slow down PvP damage without breaking the warfronts. They are already on the cusp in Civil War and the bombing one.

 

Which was pretty much my point.

 

They either need to make the Tank PvP sets more appealing, make some tank spec tweaks to make up for how few attacks are affected by Defense/Shielding, and/or cherry pick certain abilities from certain classes to allow them to be mitigated properly.

 

Applying defense to everything would break PvP. Hell, another tier of gear could do it as is.

[TheronFett]

I loved my ST. It was my favorite of three. However, after having it brought to my attention that shield does not work against all damage, I dropped it for AP. I'd rather have my dps work all the time, than my shield work some of the time.

 

This. ^

 

I currently run the "Carolina Parakeet" build and it's doable. End game content is rough, barely playable because those MOBs just don't deal a lot of "weapon damage" that I can actually shield. In PvP, I get 6-10 awards per match and I can deal with that too.

 

However, I have a ton of gear and points invested into tanking (shield/absorb/armor/etc.) and it's broken. That's crap. I don't want to switch to a DPS spec, but I can't help but feel like it's a much better return for my point investment.

[chainsawsamurai]

This. ^

 

I currently run the "Carolina Parakeet" build and it's doable. End game content is rough, barely playable because those MOBs just don't deal a lot of "weapon damage" that I can actually shield. In PvP, I get 6-10 awards per match and I can deal with that too.

 

However, I have a ton of gear and points invested into tanking (shield/absorb/armor/etc.) and it's broken. That's crap. I don't want to switch to a DPS spec, but I can't help but feel like it's a much better return for my point investment.

 

Just run the Parakeet with DPS gear. There's a reason me and Trungalung keep recommending the Eliminator set for PvP. Works great and still plenty survivable with Ion Cylinder, Armor mitigates more than most give it credit for.

[ZNICK]

If my tank stats applied to everything and I were in tank gear I would be unkillable. Period.

 

This IS a good point... because now, regardless of "how much" anything does to anything compared to something else, a tank with a good pocket healer IS already close to unkillable. (by 3-4 people, not unkillable by 8, lol)

 

I think some of us (myself included) are getting too hung up on "percentages" of this and that. The percentages don't matter as much as the results.

 

Some of the defensive gear and stats defends against some things, and others defend against others... and as it is, we can pick DPS and less tanky, or more tanky and do less damage.

 

If we were more defensive (for any reason) in PvP we would go from "practically" unkillable with a healer to "literally" unkillable. Think of the cries of "nerf" if so.

 

As it stands, we still have to trade defense for offense. Sure, there's builds that are more optimal at both... and we make choices based upon such. I'm starting to lean by the way of "it's ok the way it is"...

 

Z

Edited January 14, 2012 by ZNICK

[nininininja]

Just run the Parakeet with DPS gear. There's a reason me and Trungalung keep recommending the Eliminator set for PvP. Works great and still plenty survivable with Ion Cylinder, Armor mitigates more than most give it credit for.

 

But that's exactly the issue here. What's the point in putting the extra 10 points into the tanking tree or buying tanking gear if a hybrid spec with dps gear is almost just as good? It makes being a tank almost pointless and just a waste of stats/points.

 

I agree that making tank stats apply to all attacks would break pvp so I don't think that's the right answer but "just run this hybrid spec, it's just as good" isn't one either IMO. They need to make it so that there's a reason to go tank spec. As it is now it's just a waste of resources.

[chainsawsamurai]

But that's exactly the issue here. What's the point in putting the extra 10 points into the tanking tree or buying tanking gear if a hybrid spec with dps gear is almost just as good? It makes being a tank almost pointless and just a waste of stats/points.

 

Being a tank in PvP is by no means worthless. The stats aren't "worthless," just incredibly lackluster compared to everything else. I see your point, but lets try not to be so over dramatic about it. We're better than that.

 

Other games get away with this design philosophy because at the end of the day at least a third of the classes have no choice but to deal with your Armor and Avoidance. In this game almost every class has a means to bypass your mitigation with their standard talents and spec'd rotation and a lot of the attacks which should be Avoidable (Punches, knives, etc) aren't. This does devalue Tank stats and talents quite a bit in practical PvP.

 

We should probably push for some sort of answer on this but should try to back it up with actual numbers and testing.

 

I agree that making tank stats apply to all attacks would break pvp so I don't think that's the right answer but "just run this hybrid spec, it's just as good" isn't one either IMO. They need to make it so that there's a reason to go tank spec. As it is now it's just a waste of resources.

 

The tree definitely needs changes. I don't think removing Empowered Tech is a good idea (as much as I hate that talent), due to PvE reasons. If Heat Blast were made into more of a "Shield Slam" type ability which provided a bit more oomph (and snap threat) to the ST tree, that would help. In a perfect world this attack would use the Shoulder Slam animation and we'd swap out that piddle pistol shot. Giving the tree a decent attack for their 31 pointer (like Juggs get) and an attack which feels more melee would be my dream come true for the spec.

 

ST's resource generation and Rocket Punch reset should probably be looked into though. There are a chunk of classes that bypass it entirely and another chunk which don't have to trigger that stuff if they are smart enough to avoid their basic attacks. Even Marauders and DPS Juggs can wipe out most of your health bar with nothing but Force attacks if they wanted to (their most popular PvP spec, the Rage tree, is actually centered around doing exactly this).

Edited January 15, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[MaxDeeps]

You make a good argument chainsawsamurai.

 

What I take issue with is that I could've been picking up the DPS PvP gear over the tanking gear all this time and not have had my survivability reduced significantly in PvP. If the mitigation stats are meant to be of marginal benefit in PvP why is it on the PvP gear at all? It feels like a bait and switch. The gear intended for the tank spec should be the best gear for the tank spec.

Edited January 15, 2012 by MaxDeeps

[Amp_]

As it stands, we still have to trade defense for offense.

 

The problem is you trade that offense for defense some of the time. Also, if you're banking on shield to reset Rocket Punch, then you're also trading off offense as well and possibly your ability to have a somewhat sustained heat vent. So really depending on who you're fighting you're trading off a lot more. I believe that to be the real crux of the issue.

 

BioWare could adjust shield so it worked across the board. They would have to reduce it's effectiveness as it stands now, but it would balance out from having a lower chance against all damage verses a higher chance against some.

 

The only road block I can foresee being a real issue is how all this would translate into PvE. I don't PvE in this game, so I couldn't say exactly, but that's usually how it goes with a MMO that has both. What is good for one may not be good for the other.

 

I understand people have a concern with changing shield and how that would engage god mode with a pocket healer in a warzone. However, this issue also needs to be looked at in the 1v1 scenario in the open world, which creates a huge disadvantage for ST PT when they've traded away offense for defense that isn't going to amount to a hill of beans against certain classes.

[Taunque]

I disagree with your statement that current mitigation is "good" for pvp. Currently it makes little sense to use the tanking set over the dps one because of how little damage shielding mitigates in pvp. The right way to deal with this issue is to make shield stats more valuable in pvp. This doesn't mean that shields should work on EVERY attack but there is a very wide spectrum of abilities that avoid mitigation that can be reflagged to become susceptible to shields. The devs can fine-tune each class and adjust the proportion of attacks that are susceptible to shields.

[chainsawsamurai]

I disagree with your statement that current mitigation is "good" for pvp. Currently it makes little sense to use the tanking set over the dps one because of how little damage shielding mitigates in pvp. The right way to deal with this issue is to make shield stats more valuable in pvp. This doesn't mean that shields should work on EVERY attack but there is a very wide spectrum of abilities that avoid mitigation that can be reflagged to become susceptible to shields. The devs can fine-tune each class and adjust the proportion of attacks that are susceptible to shields.

 

Did you read it?

 

I said it was good for PvP. I never said it was good for tanks. Tanks stacking defensive stats are screwed right now. Tanks stacking DPS gear will do fine.

 

Does that suck? Maybe, that's up to you. I'm having enough fun with it and am being plenty successful since I adapted to the system. The system should probably allow for a completely defensive play style but in the meantime the only options are to adapt or be stuck with mediocrity.

 

Reflagging some abilities is probably the correct answer, however I'm not sure how drastically that would affect the code they have in place. Simple talent tree adjustments may very well be easier, but that doesn't stop us from not properly being the Rock to an Operative's Scissors.

Edited January 15, 2012 by chainsawsamurai

[Taunque]

Did you read it?

 

I said it was good for PvP. I never said it was good for tanks. Tanks stacking defensive stats are screwed right now. Tanks stacking DPS gear will do fine.

 

Does that suck? Maybe, that's up to you. I'm having enough fun with it and am being plenty successful since I adapted to the system. The system should probably allow for a completely defensive play style but in the meantime the only options are to adapt or be stuck with mediocrity.

 

Reflagging some abilities is probably the correct answer, however I'm not sure how drastically that would affect the code they have in place. Simple talent tree adjustments may very well be easier, but that doesn't stop us from not properly being the Rock to an Operative's Scissors.

 

Yes I did read it. I simply disagree. Stacking tanking stats (or at least the pvp tank set) should be a bit more viable to make it worthwhile for those players who prefer the tanking style of play in pvp: superior mitigation in exchange for a proportional decrease in damage output. Simply donning on dps gear and skipping shielding talents is not really "adapting" so much as reverting back to a dps role with some extra utility. I'm glad you're having fun with it but it's still mediocre. So yes it does suck, and it's not just up to me. It'll be up to all the players out there who also feel the same way and offer their feedback/support on the dozens of thread on this topic. Eventually the devs will address the issue or the players will get tired of complaining and move on. We'll see.

 

That being said I don't think our positions are that far apart. Reflagging would be simple as it would involve a toggle in the code. The hard part would be culling through all the abilities and deciding what abilities should be susceptible to mitigation while others should bypass.

[terrorball]

Amen, Taunque.

[Athilias]

Why not just make it so Shield rate happens half as often with thing like Tech or Focus powers (so if you had 40% chance to shield, it could go to 20% chance to shield Tech/Focus powers), or lower, depending on balancing issues. This way tanks can up their DPS through Flame shield. Maybe lower the amount of heat they vent through Shield Vents (or replace it with a mechanic like they vent whenever RP crits, or something along those lines) so that they can't have such a quick way to vent heat (and hybrid specs wouldn't thrive off it). That way Shield specs can be more durable, and have a bit of DPS option, but not too durable?

 

Not real sure, even when saying that, I still feel they'd be too durable. Might be different once the 50 brackets come up, just seems like they still be able to plug it away. I do think that no matter what, shield should not effect crit hits.

[Jaysun]

this is the issue with all tanks across the bored .. JK/SW have to lots worse than PT do..

[Blackire]

Adapting to the situation is not an answer to the issues at hand.

 

Yes, we can play with a hybrid spec that will allow us to perform with utility, however, this still does not address the fact that the mitigation system and the stats on our PVP tanking gear does not synergize as they should.

 

Rather then settling for a broken system, believe we should continue to lobby for an alternative.

 

Have no problems accepting a scissors/paper/rock pvp setup IF that is the design.

 

If.

[Stigas]

Tanks already mitigate a metric sh*t ton of damage in PvP. Just because you have to balance a few mitigation types doesn't make it broken.

[Spurgo]

If the current state of pvp TANK/ABSORB is this, then we r forced to manage the situation.

And as i can see, the most underrated thing is ARMOR. I have tested on my skin: more armor is the thing that let u tank MORE in pvp. I always notice a huge amount of survivability in pvp when i use ion gas cylinder.

Btw i also notice that the best dps tree is of course Pyro.

This is the best build i can imagine, using ion gas cylinder and a shield generator (but u can use a power generator if u prefer) and a full eliminator set:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hM0MZzMZbIbbdGGMs.1

 

 

I will try this today.

Atm i am using a full ST build and i've noticed a great increment in survivability from pure Pyro. When full pyro i was doing 230k damage in a wz usually. And whith full st build i am doing 180k. Not this huge difference in dps, but a great one in surv.

 

If shield and defence r so useless then all my mitigation comes from armor difference.

 

I'll let you know if this build is the way to go.