Suspension of disbelief has faded (spoilers within)

[Kalyth]

You guys are right about game mechanics, but I think that the Jedi/Sith butchery was something they could avoid. It was present in the first 2 KotORs and I thought that was exagerated (especially in KotOR II).

On the setting side of the matter anyway, you can take "as an excuse" for this, that the time period used was a time where Jedi were not rare, even if some NPC tells the contrary ("Few of your kind managed to do this and to do that" => some simple quest done by dozens of other PCs at the very same time, LOL).

 

Then again, this is a game mechanics issue, and MMOs, especially as focused on cambat as this one, can't really be that different.

MAYBE you can find something more realistic in the upcoming World of Darkness MMO (but who knows when it will be out, and no Star Wars setting involved of course).

[DarkestDaemon]

I'd like to direct your attention to a famous MMO, WoW.

 

If you play a warrior, you're using a sword. Last I checked, using a sword on an enemy in a downward chop should kill someone. Yet I'm sure not many warriors go around one-shotting level equivalent enemies.

 

A lot of you have addressed the idea of changing the health bar to 'armor' or 'stamina'... why change it when you could just believe that's what it is? That's how I think of it, after all, especially since health stats are usually 'stamina' or 'endurance'.

 

The lower you get means that's how tired you're getting. How quick the adrenaline is burning through you. Medpacs/heals in my mind are more just a boost of painkillers/adrenaline filling you to keep fighting. Maybe a bit of wound knitting in a few cases.

[Salacar]

Another thing about Jedi/Sith which was very poorly implemented. If Jedi player's light/dark meter is way down in the Dark side, that means he is evil and a Sith and vice versa. There's little reason for that meter to even exists for these character classes, as if you "turn to the darkside" it means absolutely nothing, just what color your lightsaber can be...

 

I don't agree with anything else you've said, but this statement holds a lot of truth, and it's something I personally have an issue with as well.

It worked in the KOTOR games because the world reacted and changed according to your choices, heck there were even different endings depending on your alignment.

 

In TOR however, this system doesn't make any sense other than to serve as yet another point system which decides what gear you can use, not only this, but it also forces powergaming in players, making them always choose the dark or light side choice just because it'll get them to rank V faster.

 

Not only this, but the name of the system is misleading as well, as there's no way in living hell a Jedi could be Dark Side and still be a part of the order, and I seriously hope that Dark Side corruption doesn't show on Jedi and non-force sensitive, since those not sensitive to the force have never been able to become corrupted by the Dark Side.

Even IF you get a "Dark Side" Jedi or "Light Side" Sith, it's not like it'll change their abilities or anything, you won't see a Jedi running around gripping people or using force lightning just because he's "Dark Side" according to the in-game system.

In the same way, a "Light Side" Sith won't be able to use Dark Side powers like Grip or Force Lightning without falling to the Dark Side again, since these abilities are pure manifestations of dark side energy. This last paradox with "Light Side" Sith is especially true when you look at the abilities the Sith Warrior and Inquisitor gets, there's no way in hell a Warrior would be able to use his primary source of power, his rage, if he wasn't a Darksider, same thing with Sith Sorcery, which is after all the deepest and most potent power of the Dark Side, a non-corrupt Sith Inquisitor would never be able to use it.

 

These reasons, among others, is why I don't see TOR's so-called "Alignment System" as anything but cosmetic idiocy without any connection to the actual Star Wars universe, it's entirely pointless and ruins the immersion of the game.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Atsurak]

You guys are right about game mechanics, but I think that the Jedi/Sith butchery was something they could avoid. It was present in the first 2 KotORs and I thought that was exagerated (especially in KotOR II).

On the setting side of the matter anyway, you can take "as an excuse" for this, that the time period used was a time where Jedi were not rare, even if some NPC tells the contrary ("Few of your kind managed to do this and to do that" => some simple quest done by dozens of other PCs at the very same time, LOL).

 

Then again, this is a game mechanics issue, and MMOs, especially as focused on cambat as this one, can't really be that different.

MAYBE you can find something more realistic in the upcoming World of Darkness MMO (but who knows when it will be out, and no Star Wars setting involved of course).

 

why do people assume that every sith/jedi in star wars would be as powerful as luke, vader, and the others seen in the movies? those are, universally, either uniquely powerful (as with folks like yoda, luke, anakin), or are at least highly trained military experts (the countless jedi 'masters' gunned down by a few order-66ing troopers).

 

Jedi are like ninjas- more deadly the less of them are about at a time Also, this is a time where fighting against jedi is much more common - people are more set up for it. if you know you're going up against a jedi, you have armour that will stop a lightsaber.

would it honestly surprise anyone if following this war, and before the films, the Jedi hunt down and systematically destroy every piece of armour that is capable of standing against a lightsaber? and every craftsman who can make it? and every record of its existance? and every new development of lightsaber-proof armour? i would in their position!

and anyway - game mechanics and story are seperate.

 

 

as for the class stories mentioned in the OP...

 

they are all interlinked, if you'd care to look rather than just trolling. why do you assume that the supreme chancellor isnt gone according to the overall storylines? i havnt seen half the dark council elimated by powerhungry sith, but its still refered to on Ilum.

 

 

and to whoever it was that said that there are countless other PCs doing the same quests as us and yet we're called unique...

 

yes. well done. you've spotted the fact that there are other people in MMOs. in terms of STORY however, each of us is the examplar of our chosen profession. the bounty hunter rises to prominence and eventually kills or deposes the supreme chancellor of the republic. the inqusitor schemes and butchers her way to a seat on the dark council. the sith warrior becomes the living embodiment of the emperor's will. the agent heads up the replacement for imperial intelligence. i'd imagine, though i dont know for sure, that the republic has similar things - the trooper becoming a leader of the republics armys, etc.

there is a difference between game mechanics, and story. i wonder how it is that so few people refuse to understand this.

 

 

[Alithyra]

Really confused by what the OP was expecting here.

 

So if your character was beset upon by a Jedi/Sith with a saber and slashes at your arm, were you expecting to be playing the rest of a game as a one-armed Bounty Hunter?

 

I also cannot see how this game can be blamed for turning SW into this.

You never Played Star Wars Galaxies I'm guessing?

Or the Jedi Academy games, Force Unleashed, Republic Commando, etc.

I don't recall one hitting any mobs in KOTOR or indeed a dark jedi doing the same to my char.

Going back to X-Wing vs Tie Fighter, I don't recall my ship bursting into flames after being hit once, there were things like shields whihc, despite the Xwings & Ywings supposedly having those in Ep IV, still seemed to explode staright away.

 

But you see there's the movie world, the real world, and then there is the gaming world - they are not freely interchangeable and tend to work quite differently.

[dezcordero]

....Do you not understand that this is an MMORPG. Not even KotOR had one hit kills and I've never played an RPG that 1 KOs enemies just because the lore "said so." When you play this type of genre, you have to have that supension of disbelief. I'm sorry, but you do. What would they base the core game mechanics on otherwise?

 

Imagine an MMO with a GURPSian setup where everyone has 10-14 hit points no matter how long you play or high you level, and attacks with the potential to do up to 6d damage....

 

Oh wait, I can hear the nerdrage now, lol.

 

No, I agree with Hatslinger. In this setting, what they did was perfect.

 

Dez

[Valashar]

As a note about lightsabers and no quick kills, there is also the fact that at this time the Mandalorians were supplying both themselves and others with beskar or Mandalorian iron. When properly processed (the Mandos kept this part to themselves, sellling only the finished metal), it made armor that when hit with a lightsaber ended up with a shallow score and slight burn on the metal. They also used it to make their own blades as well as the armor plating on their vehicles, starships, and basilisk war droids. It's a major reason why their culture has always been a pain in the collective backsides of Force users throughout the history of this galaxy far, far away.

 

Add this to the fact that because there was no shortage of Force users at this time, that anyone serving in a military was given at least some training in how to combat them. Some training was better than others, of course, ranging form 'don't let the glowy stick hit you' to techniques on avoiding mental coercion.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Valashar

[LyriaFrost]

My suspension of disbelief is firmly intact.

 

Seriously, is this your first MMO, OP? You can't have one person change the entire game based on a quest they do. Otherwise the entire game would fall apart in the first few hours. There are rebels attacking this area? Well, I've killed them all. Why do more show up? I blew up their base, why does it just magically respawn?

 

It's the nature of MMOs.

 

As far as lightsabers killing someone in one swing, other people have already shown you why it doesn't happen. Not only is it for balance purposes, but there is plenty of armor floating around the galaxy that can slow/stop lightsabers, blasters, etc. This isn't the movies, where one blaster shot to the chest kills an imperial soldier in full body armor (something that blew my suspension of disbelief about the movies, too! Why wear body armor if it doesn't work?)

 

And as far as jedi go? Let me quote/paraphrase Watcher One: "We expected jedi to be involved in this. We're trained to kill you."

 

When there are literally thousands of force-users in the galaxy, every military group is going to be trained in tactics against them. It's just common sense.

 

If you want "realism", blaster weapons should be firing at you from 100+ meters away, not 10-20. Snipers should be able to just kill you while you're standing around waiting for the taxi. Why would anyone bother to engage a jedi/sith in near-melee range when they could just snipe you from a quarter-mile away? No muss, no fuss. Dead jedi.

 

Realism has no place in video games.

[verzin]

I agree OP. this game broke my heart. I truly expected something more from bioware.

It's sad. I was hoping to play this game for two or three months. more, if they kept up with updates to the class quest.

now I'm not even done with my free time, and I don't want to play it anymore. I just get this...sick feeling when I'm trying to play this so-called KOTOR III, and the MMOness pervades everything. I can't believe the KOTOR series is going to end like this. god I hope some studio saves it from the new EA bioware and makes a real KOTOR III.

at least I managed to finish my class quest...though I stopped enjoying it around level 30.

[Pirate_Ron]

ok so do enable your suspense of disbelief again the game should have enemies able to one shot us and no ressurection. We'd all die on the starter planet because while you may take out the first bad guy in a group, the other 2 will definately get at least 1 shot in on you.

 

While I think MMO's in general should be harder, that would make it just a little too hard.

[Toat]

OP admits to not liking MMOs, then qq's because he doesn't enjoy playing...a...MMO

 

 

*head explosion*

[smartalectwo]

Last but not least, the class stories.

 

 

My BH story had me kill the leader of the whole Republic. I haven't checked, but I'll bet that each class' story completely ignores every other class' story. So, only for Bounty Hunters is the Republic leader dead? That's such a great design and kudos for spending all that time creating useless stories that aren't any different than the "kill x amount of y and come back" MMO quest. All the class stories could have been intertwined in an epic saga, but once again there isn't a single thing the players can do to change the game world except what gear they are wearing.

 

Oh dear lord. It's already odd enough with everyone being the X that does Y. If everyone is also the Z that does ABC in everyone else's stories too, it's just too crazy, I tell you.

[Shadowtirs]

well played OP, you trolled everyone but not meeeeeeeeeeeeee.

 

C'MON GUYS STOP FEEDING THE TROLLS! Or should we call them Rancors? Either way.

 

HEY GUYZ I'M MAD CAUSE MY LYGHTSABER DOEZN'T KILL EVRYBODY. ***!?!?

 

see look I can be ridiculous too.

[DarthMoord]

Imagine an MMO with a GURPSian setup where everyone has 10-14 hit points no matter how long you play or high you level, and attacks with the potential to do up to 6d damage....

 

As I mentioned before the version of the SWRPG that was out when KOTOR was released, SWRPG Revised, had an extremely lethal system. You had vitality and wound points, vitality took the place of hit points and represented your ability to turn a hit into a near miss (IE moving to where a blaster just singes your hair or uniform), wounds represent how much damage you can take and when they're gone you're dead. You had as many wound points as your Constitution Score (barring specific feats) so your average human had 10 WP. Well on a critical instead of multiplying the damage like you would in standard D20 rules (IE D&D, D20 modern, Pathfinder, etc.) you would instead apply the damage roll directly to WP. A blaster rifle dealt 3d8 damage so if a stormtrooper rolled a critical you had a 66% chance of being killed outright, which is why armor DR was an important part of the game.

 

There's also the FFG RPGs, Dark Heresy is especially lethal as a lucky shot from a drugged out hiver with an shotgun can ruin your day. I remember in our last Dark Heresy campaign the Arbiter who was nominally our leader had to burn a Fate Point on the first round of combat in the first encounter because he decided he wanted to take point instead of letting the Guardsman decked out in full flak armor and 13 Wounds IE Me go first.

[MasterVile]

I'm with you OP. I mean, I was playing Call of Duty Modern Warfare (the third one) the other day, and during a particularly intense gun battle, I got shot center mass at least once by an enemy's AK-47. I got better after crouching behind some plywood, and was shocked at how blatantly the developers didn't adhere to reality. I mean, I clearly should have died! My suspension of disbelief faded away at that point. Edited January 10, 2012 by MasterVile

[RoadtoArkham]

I'm with you OP. I mean, I was playing Call of Duty Modern Warfare (the third one) the other day, and during a particularly intense gun battle, I got shot center mass at least once by an enemy's AK-47. I got better after crouching behind some plywood, but was shocked at how blatantly the developers didn't adhere to reality. I mean, I clearly should have died! My suspension of disbelief faded away at that point.

 

And when I use my Unrelenting Force dragon shout, it blows everything in front of me away, but does not have an equal and opposite effect by blowing me away in turn

[Kauhu]

I wonder if OP had been happy if we had imaginary HP bar, let's call it Morale like they did in LotrO to circumvent the fact that there were no MMO type healers in lore, and when it depletes the lightsaber suddenly chops your arm off.

 

Or let's call that bar Avoidance or Endurance. When you're too tired you can no longer dodge and the Sith oneshots you. Or Let's call it Critical Mistake Bar, in the end you make 1 mistake and the Sith oneshots you like Qui-Gon vs Maul (or Maul vs Obi)

 

Basically OP, you're asking that BW should have innovated a combat system centered around 1 hit kills, which is nigh impossible to balance in a game with PvP setting, and even harder in a MMO with PvP setting. In fact only iteration of this I've seen so far is Assassins Creed but that' game is bit..well.. different

[ShawnSixtyTwo]

Just go back to Tython and slaughter flesh raiders then.

 

But seriously - I'm not an MMO vet (this is my first), but it seems to me that would (as others already noted) completely unbalance things and make the game pointless. If your lightsaber is unstoppable then you would only ever need your first one and go slash your way from level 9-ish to 50 no problem. Probably wouldn't even NEED leveling except for force powers, I guess.

 

Ooh! While we're at it can we make it so "dead" is dead? No more calling for a med probe. Get one-shot by a flesh raider 2 minutes after landing? DEAD! New character. Make it to level 30 and get shot in the back by a Jawa? DEAD! New character. Stepped off a ledge in Coruscant? (Nooo, I never did that. Just saying... ) You guessed it!

 

No, even as an MMO n00b I didn't expect anything like that. Pretty much all computer games have to work on a skill/hit point system like this. Anything else would either be far too complicated, no fun at all, or both.

 

Now, there WAS a game - two, in fact - I played where lightsabers were every bit as lethal in my virtual hands as they were in Anakin's: Jedi Knight I & II. That was a lot more like an FPS though and saber combat was frankly just mash the buttons until someone dies. Killing non-force wielders was usually pathetically easy. Going saber-to-saber might end in one swing or go on for what seemed like an eternity. Neither outcome was necessarily going to be in your favor, either. Always felt satisfying to land that killing blow and watch it play out Matrix style though. Oh, and dropping off a ledge and in between two hapless guards then killing them with dual sabers thrust out to the side was a delicious piece of sadistic fun.

[Uruare]

My only gripe concurrent to the OP's direction is that Sith Marauders feel pointless until 30-ish, whereafter which, if you never bring one with on any flashpoint or op and replace them instead with any other DPS, you're probably making life a little easier on your healers.

 

Also, Sith Juggernaut tanks feel about as tanky as a HP bar with taunt and a couple of cooldowns that let you be a real tank for 12s every couple of minutes. Considering all the attack forms (that NPC's have as well as PC's for PVP concerns) that ignore huge amounts of defense, can't be shielded and so on...yeah.

 

Ditto for Jedi Guardians.

 

Half the lightsaber-wielding classes in the game feel very ignorable. Nobody needs a jugg tank when a powertech tank can at least boast range and AoE worth mentioning, and an Assassin dark tree tank can boast some super-impressive DPS -and- a bit of CC.

 

Marauder DPS? There are some that think it's just lovely...but reality says that ranged DPS just flat does a better job in every way possible. BH Mercs can pop heals and help the healers in a crunch on top of doing staggering AoE DPS. You want Melee DPS, get an inquisitor assassin.

 

Frankly, if Jedi Guardian and Sith Warrior were deleted, nobody's have to miss their presence in gameplay. Stories are good; all the fluff and stuff is just dandy.

 

Gameplay? Lackluster and, for group relevance, forgettable. And that, more than anything on those classes, makes -my- suspension of disbelief flatline.

 

Otherwise...yep, MMO is MMO.

[RiledRodian]

Waah, my video games have video game mechanics in them, waaaah!

[Wisz_Rethon]

when in combat with 'lesser' enemies we routinely slaughter them, nearly oneshooting them (just as in the movies)

When fighting trained enemies we have some difficulty (oh wait, did I say just lik ein the movies?)

 

The difference is that instead of fighting for 5 minutes without hitting each other and then oneshotting (which is somehow in line with how it works in reality)

we have a HP bar. (which is in line with mmo phylosophy)

 

 

I really don't see the OP's point here.

 

Oh, and during the clone wars jedi's got routinely slaughtered by various non force users... such as General Grievous for example

[Mograth]

I think the current amount of Damage vs HP on high-end PvE mobs (outside of Dungeons) is a joke. Grey Round takes 25% HP off a Tank, 50% of nearly all DDs for example. While the mob itself only takes maybe 5% from the hardest hitting attacks we can throw at them.

 

Overall the combat isn't "fluid" or "fun" in higher levels. It's a tedious, annoying button smashing process where you spend 2-3m as a Tank to fight some elite mob that doesn't have any mechanics besides "watch for grey round and make sure it won't hit you."

 

Not to mention the problems you have against some storyline NPCs. The final quest comes to mind where the two "strong" mobs heal for a ton and you can't CC them properly as a Tank. And you also don't deal any damage.

[Aisaka_Taiga]

Another thing about Jedi/Sith which was very poorly implemented. If Jedi player's light/dark meter is way down in the Dark side, that means he is evil and a Sith and vice versa. There's little reason for that meter to even exists for these character classes, as if you "turn to the darkside" it means absolutely nothing, just what color your lightsaber can be...

 

Being darkside doesnt make you sith, Sith is a race, a human cant go darkside and then become a sith. Being darkside doesnt necessarily mean youre evil either.

 

For example a Jedi who is darkside doesnt fight with honor to acheive his goals, he shows no mercy to his enemies or will stab them in the back when not looking. As oppose to light side jedis who will give their enemies a second chance or fight them face to face in honorable combat, as oppose to sneaking up and stabbing them in the back.

 

 

Reverse that and lets look at it from the Imperial POV.

 

Light sith warrior can still hunger for thirst and power, and can achieve those goals through fighting fairly and without betraying others. Where as a darkside sith warrior will gain that power they desire by killing and betraying those around him no matter the cost.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Paralassa
insults

[Seductivpancakes]

This isn't ARMA or ARMA 2.

 

There's no one hit kills from deadly weapons.

 

Want a one hit light saber kill? Go play Jedi Outcast.

[Atsurak]

Being darkside doesnt make you sith, Sith is a race, a human cant go darkside and then become a sith. Being darkside doesnt necessarily mean youre evil either.

 

For example a Jedi who is darkside doesnt fight with honor to acheive his goals, he shows no mercy to his enemies or will stab them in the back when not looking. As oppose to light side jedis who will give their enemies a second chance or fight them face to face in honorable combat, as oppose to sneaking up and stabbing them in the back.

 

 

Reverse that and lets look at it from the Imperial POV.

 

Light sith warrior can still hunger for thirst and power, and can achieve those goals through fighting fairly and without betraying others. Where as a darkside sith warrior will gain that power they desire by killing and betraying those around him no matter the cost.

 

darkside republic i can entirely get - its the classic thing of 'ends justifying the means' and 'no place for me there' (where a character knows that he's a terrible person, who will have no place in the world he's fighting to create.). thats fine. you cause pain and suffering on a relatively small scale to prevent it on a large scale. thats fine.

 

lightside empire though, is a bit weird . the same arguements just dont work quite as well in reverse :/. you cant even say that just want to end the war one way or the other so that the suffering will end - the empire will carry on inflicting pain and suffering even once it wins! oh well. thats a problem for my lightside bounty hunter to handle i guess