Taugrim's Guide to Trooper Vanguard Mechanics and PVP

[Ranelagh]

Thank you Taugrim for your blog and videos. I am still working on hitting 50 so I can Give your Iron Fist spec a shot.

 

One question, I see you do a lot of jumping. Aside from getting LOS over a ridge is there a specific reason for it?

[taugrimtaugrim]

One question, I see you do a lot of jumping. Aside from getting LOS over a ridge is there a specific reason for it?

 

No, it's a habit I picked up from other games, both because it looks funny and more importantly because you can hop over rocks/terrain/etc.

 

The issue in SWTOR is that you lose speed while jumping, so you really want to avoid jumping unless it's needed.

[DarthPianoMan]

Like credibility is important to me, anyone else, or even you. An experienced player gave his explanations for why it's bad and you're basically dismissing it because you don't want to be wrong.

 

I mean, you're STILL here defending Energy Blast in PvP. If you want to continue being sub-par, I guess that's your prerogative.

 

I have provided anecdotal evidence that the build is not as bad as you seem to think. I also posted a link to a 30+ page thread discussing the build in pvp. Most of my points seem to be completely ignored by people who would rather focus on how bad shield chance is in pvp without giving the spec a second thought.

 

You, Rogmar, have also attacked me personally in each of your responses. I have no idea who you are or how experienced you are as a vanguard in pvp, but I do know that I am not "sub par" by any means. You are welcome to roll a toon on Ajunta Pall and see for yourself.

 

I stand by my original statement that the Yojack build is strong enough in pvp to deserve recognition on a comprehensive list of vanguard pvp specs. In his own words the build is "an absolute beast in 1 vs 1 and team pvp". Regardless of what you think of me, Yojack is undoubtedly an experienced pvper. Anyone who disagrees with me is welcome to their opinion, but please keep the insults to yourself.

 

Edit: Out of respect for Taugrim, I will not post anymore in his thread on this matter.

Edited February 7, 2012 by DarthPianoMan

[Zakmonster]

I think the main issue of Energy Blast is the slow activation time. PvP is pretty fast-paced in this game and having to wait those few precious seconds for EB to fire off can get frustrating.

 

Also, the 4 points spent in the +shield talents are pretty wasted in PvP and they're 4 points that can be better spent elsewhere (Defensive Measures and Brutal Impact, for example). But I think that's what you'd have to sacrifice to have a build that's efficient for both PvE and PvP.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I have provided anecdotal evidence that the build is not as bad as you seem to think. I also posted a link to a 30+ page thread discussing the build in pvp. Most of my points seem to be completely ignored by people who would rather focus on how bad shield chance is in pvp without giving the spec a second thought.

 

At the end of the day, people should run with whatever spec provides them with the characteristics they are looking for. Certainly full 31-pt will provide the highest durability.

 

I would consider stacking Shield if it didn't have the following limitations:

• Doesn't work vs Force and Tech attacks, only Melee and Ranged
  
• The roll for Accuracy-vs-Defense comes before Crit-vs-Shield
  
• Crit Chance can push Shield Chance off the table
  

I do equip a Shield offhand to leverage the free +15% Shield Chance buff from the tanking stance.

 

Edit: Out of respect for Taugrim, I will not post anymore in his thread on this matter.

 

You should post your opinions here.

 

People are going to disagree, it's part of what comes with forum dialogue.

[JediKnightCZ]

This is true.

 

That being said, as I have said and shown on my streams, I often try to make myself an "attractive" target by going in first, so people start wasting their GCDs inefficiently trying to kill me instead of squishier targets.

 

This is part of what I love about Iron Fist. You can get up in people's grills, shutdown casters and healers, dish out solid damage, and take a beating and stay on your feet.

I am just now trying the hybrid (23/0/18 - I switched the 2 points from HIB armor penetration to incresed Stockstrike crit) and that exactly is the reason why I am considering trying and probably even switchting the "Iron Fist".

 

I Kinda do that "LEEROY" regardless of my current spec, as it really is Tank's job in PvP to create chaos and make the other team waste resources. But the reality is that my survivability WAS higher in full Shield Spec, yet with the hybrid, I can certainly dish out more dmg.

 

IMO the reason for me why the shield/tactics hybrid is so intriquing is one awesome talent - CD reduction on Riot Strike. Coupled with superior durability vs. shield/assult hybrid... well, there is one caveat - the real nice thing about assault is that the DoT from Incendiary Round is a) ranged b) ticks for 18s. Meaning you can literally DOT everyone to prevent capping without the need to get up close and personal with each enemy - certainly a useful addition, especially during solo play with random (read braindead ) people.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I am just now trying the hybrid (23/0/18 - I switched the 2 points from HIB armor penetration to incresed Stockstrike crit) and that exactly is the reason why I am considering trying and probably even switchting the "Iron Fist".

 

I Kinda do that "LEEROY" regardless of my current spec, as it really is Tank's job in PvP to create chaos and make the other team waste resources. But the reality is that my survivability WAS higher in full Shield Spec, yet with the hybrid, I can certainly dish out more dmg.

 

IMO the reason for me why the shield/tactics hybrid is so intriquing is one awesome talent - CD reduction on Riot Strike. Coupled with superior durability vs. shield/assult hybrid... well, there is one caveat - the real nice thing about assault is that the DoT from Incendiary Round is a) ranged b) ticks for 18s. Meaning you can literally DOT everyone to prevent capping without the need to get up close and personal with each enemy - certainly a useful addition, especially during solo play with random (read braindead ) people.

 

You basically summed up my reasoning for the design of "Iron Fist" and why I love its playstyle.

 

E.g. from last night, here's a screenie of my Valor Rank 59 tank in Voidstar:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=328484310523616&set=a.297876576917723.65566.232394066799308&type=1&theater

 

Tops in damage, kills, fewest deaths suffered, even with pre-BM gear playing against and with better-geared players. Although I should be hitting my Taunts more often as I discuss in my Guide and videos since they're off the GCD

[Necodreus]

I run yojacks build as well but he even states, its for doing both PvE and PvP effectively to keep respec costs down. All his mods go into power, crit, surge so he knows the defensive stats are almost useless. When you run in your own premade it makes this spec very hard to kill, and its your job in this spec to keep taunts up so they cant burn your support down fast... Is it the best pvp tank build, no but it is the very effective at both pvp and pve. His pvp spec is http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc when/if dual speccing happens so even he drops eb.

 

I normally get 7 to 9 medals around in top 3 most of the time, and can still tank all the fps with no problems. I have dropped my eb since i rarely have ammo issues, it needs a taunt mechanic added to it or some proc to make it more worth while.

[taugrimtaugrim]

I run yojacks build as well but he even states, its for doing both PvE and PvP effectively to keep respec costs down. All his mods go into power, crit, surge so he knows the defensive stats are almost useless.

 

I normally get 7 to 9 medals around in top 3 most of the time, and can still tank all the fps with no problems. I have dropped my eb since i rarely have ammo issues, it needs a taunt mechanic added to it or some proc to make it more worth while.

 

Re: the red text above. I have now tanked all 7 Hard Mode Flashpoints in my "Iron Fist" 25/14/2 PVP tanking spec.

 

The HM Flashpoint fights are more about execution than anything else.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As I stated earlier in this thread:

- if you use a PVP tank spec, you'll get excellent performance in PVP and adequate performance in PVE

- if you use a PVE tank spec, you'll get weak performance in PVP and excellent performance in PVE

 

The issue when running a PVE tank spec in PVP is that you'll lack either good damage or good CC or both, depending how you spec. You won't be able to meaningfully pressure people in PVP like you can with Carolina Parakeet or Iron Fist.

 

Which makes the tank a durable meatshield that opponents simply ignore.

 

Again, this is not PVE.

 

In PVE, stacking mitigation and avoidance makes sense, because we can force the boss and adds to attack us. You can't do that in PVP.

 

You can taunt, but as I wrote in my Guide, taunts are off the GCD so any class with taunts should be using them.

Edited February 10, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[StupacGT]

I am just now trying the hybrid (23/0/18 - I switched the 2 points from HIB armor penetration to incresed Stockstrike crit) and that exactly is the reason why I am considering trying and probably even switchting the "Iron Fist".

 

I Kinda do that "LEEROY" regardless of my current spec, as it really is Tank's job in PvP to create chaos and make the other team waste resources. But the reality is that my survivability WAS higher in full Shield Spec, yet with the hybrid, I can certainly dish out more dmg.

 

IMO the reason for me why the shield/tactics hybrid is so intriquing is one awesome talent - CD reduction on Riot Strike. Coupled with superior durability vs. shield/assult hybrid... well, there is one caveat - the real nice thing about assault is that the DoT from Incendiary Round is a) ranged b) ticks for 18s. Meaning you can literally DOT everyone to prevent capping without the need to get up close and personal with each enemy - certainly a useful addition, especially during solo play with random (read braindead ) people.

 

 

The different builds are very dependent on what you want to get out of PvP. Below are some of my thoughts on the 3 "primary" specs most often used by Vanguards.

 

31+ Shield - It's basically a PvE tank that's too lazy to respec. I will also add that it does have the "most" survivability. If you just hate dying (or you want people to waste as much time as possible killing you) this is the spec to go with. With a healer you are a walking mountain. But your DPS output is low. Get into a 1v1 with a decent DPS class it's going to be a long fight and you'll probably be on the losing end unless you have a large gear differential (in your favor) against your opponent.

 

Iron Fist - A true "battle tank". Survivability is still there (if you get focused fired you're gonna die but you'll get a few hits off before you go down). If you get into a 1v1 you actually have a good chance to win as long as there isn't a large gear and skill differential between you and your opponent. What I like about this is if you jump on a healer, the other team HAS to deal with you because you stand a very good chance of taking them down quickly if you get a few crits in quickly.

 

Carolina Parakeet - A build for someone "that just wants to watch the world burn!" IR is the masterpiece of this spec. Survivability is close to Ironfist but you also have the option of just sitting back and spamming IR and mortar volley to like the damage roll in over time. In a 1v1 fight you have to do some kiting to take full advantage of IR's DOT.

 

As far as warzone medals, as someone that has played all three specs it seems easier to rank up more medals with Ironfit and Carolina Parakeet than with a shield build.

 

In closing, a 31+ shield build is good for someone playing with a group or someone who favors living longer over putting out more damage. It's purely a strategic PvP build in that you are playing to make the group better (because on your own your just a nuisance at best).

 

IF and CP are builds for people that can enjoy strategic PvP and want to be able to be a damage thorn to the opposing team.

[taugrimtaugrim]

The different builds are very dependent on what you want to get out of PvP. Below are some of my thoughts on the 3 "primary" specs most often used by Vanguards.

 

31+ Shield - It's basically a PvE tank that's too lazy to respec. I will also add that it does have the "most" survivability. If you just hate dying (or you want people to waste as much time as possible killing you) this is the spec to go with. With a healer you are a walking mountain. But your DPS output is low. Get into a 1v1 with a decent DPS class it's going to be a long fight and you'll probably be on the losing end unless you have a large gear differential (in your favor) against your opponent.

 

Iron Fist - A true "battle tank". Survivability is still there (if you get focused fired you're gonna die but you'll get a few hits off before you go down). If you get into a 1v1 you actually have a good chance to win as long as there isn't a large gear and skill differential between you and your opponent. What I like about this is if you jump on a healer, the other team HAS to deal with you because you stand a very good chance of taking them down quickly if you get a few crits in quickly.

 

Carolina Parakeet - A build for someone "that just wants to watch the world burn!" IR is the masterpiece of this spec. Survivability is close to Ironfist but you also have the option of just sitting back and spamming IR and mortar volley to like the damage roll in over time. In a 1v1 fight you have to do some kiting to take full advantage of IR's DOT.

 

As far as warzone medals, as someone that has played all three specs it seems easier to rank up more medals with Ironfit and Carolina Parakeet than with a shield build.

 

In closing, a 31+ shield build is good for someone playing with a group or someone who favors living longer over putting out more damage. It's purely a strategic PvP build in that you are playing to make the group better (because on your own your just a nuisance at best).

 

IF and CP are builds for people that can enjoy strategic PvP and want to be able to be a damage thorn to the opposing team.

 

I'll add one other thing re: 31-pt tank specs.

 

They're incredibly durable node defenders, and in Alderaan and Voidstar they can be invaluable when defending. However, such specs - especially when paired with lots of Supercommando gear with the original stats - hit like wet noodle, and on offense they're ineffective at helping overcome the spawn rate of opposing defenders.

 

For offense and defense CP and IF offer much more well-rounded capability.

[Psionic_X]

hello taugrim, tried PMing you 2 times now, doesnt seem to get through.

 

what keys do you use for movement ? the latest of your vanguard videos i watched was assault and you seem to have all the keys on the lefthand side of the keyboard mapped to hotkeys.

[mirthEightyOne]

hello taugrim, tried PMing you 2 times now, doesnt seem to get through.

 

what keys do you use for movement ? the latest of your vanguard videos i watched was assault and you seem to have all the keys on the lefthand side of the keyboard mapped to hotkeys.

 

I'm pretty sure he uses the mouse for movement (i.e. both mouse keys pressed at the same time for forward), not keys.

[Psionic_X]

I'm pretty sure he uses the mouse for movement (i.e. both mouse keys pressed at the same time for forward), not keys.

 

i thought about that too, but he is strafing a lot. you cant do that with L/R mousebottons can you ?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Psionic_X

[phga]

Hey guys, I've got a question. Which spec is the more viable for PvE solo/questing/leveling (bulky but still capable of dishing out some good damage)? Is Assault too squishy for leveling? Thanks in advance

[taugrimtaugrim]

i thought about that too, but he is strafing a lot. you cant do that with L/R mousebottons can you ?

 

I have a keybinding setup that is designed to support and enable fluid strafing while using abilities:

http://taugrim.com/2011/04/07/guide-to-strafing-movement-and-keybindings/

[taugrimtaugrim]

Hey guys, I've got a question. Which spec is the more viable for PvE solo/questing/leveling (bulky but still capable of dishing out some good damage)? Is Assault too squishy for leveling? Thanks in advance

 

Any spec is viable for PVE leveling.

 

Once you get Elara Dorne, taking down elites is not a problem, regardless of spec.

[danvoyer]

I will add to this that most classes with a tank tree and have a companion with healing ability will solo about anything in PvE, even some H2.

 

Ex.: take the jedi shadow tank + Taran (healing companion). with this class you might even solo some H4 with its stealth mode ability.

[Kryptorchid]

I have a keybinding setup that is designed to support and enable fluid strafing while using abilities:

http://taugrim.com/2011/04/07/guide-to-strafing-movement-and-keybindings/

 

Very interesting setup Taugrim. Your binding pattern has opened my eyes to a way I can bind my G13 that my fiancé bought me for Christmas, but I never use because I am so used to my movement/ability/utility binding patterns on my Saitek Eclipse II keyboard.

[Piiro]

hey taugrim what dps spec do you think is better hands down? the run and gun tactics dps spec or the 31pt assault spec? i watched your videos and am leaning towards it because the guild needs me to dps for raids and i have been iron fist spec since 10

[taugrimtaugrim]

hey taugrim what dps spec do you think is better hands down? the run and gun tactics dps spec or the 31pt assault spec? i watched your videos and am leaning towards it because the guild needs me to dps for raids and i have been iron fist spec since 10

 

They have different capabilities.

 

If you want to use the same spec for PVP and PVE DPS, 4/6/31 would be the better spec, as the mobility and CC capability of 1/22/18 (or 0/23/18) are not as relevant in PVE.

[taugrimtaugrim]

Per the nerf to Surge Rating in 1.1.3, I've updated the priority for secondary stats accordingly:

http://taugrim.com/2012/01/04/guide-to-bounty-hunter-powertech-trooper-vanguard-mechanics-and-pvp/#stats

 

PVP

• Primary stats: Aim = Endurance, favor one over the other for damage vs time-to-live
  
• Secondary stats:
  
  • Offensive builds (including my “Iron Fist” 25/14/2 tank spec): Expertise > Power = Crit Rating > Surge Rating > Accuracy Rating
    
  • Max durability builds*: Expertise > Defense Rating = Shield Rating > Power = Crit Rating > Surge Rating > Accuracy Rating
    

* Please note that due to the limitations for Defense and Shield in PVP, I recommend going with the “Offensive builds” stats instead of the “Max durability builds” stats. YMMV.

I still believe Crit Rating is worth stacking - burst damage kills - but the nerf to Surge Rating does affect the value of Crit Rating since crits deliver smaller magnitude of burst than pre-1.1.3.

 

For more information, see the link above to the Stats section of the Guide.

Edited February 14, 2012 by taugrimtaugrim

[Piiro]

Thanks for the reply! If I went with the assault spec what would be the best companion to use for solo questing?

[Kryptorchid]

Thanks for the reply! If I went with the assault spec what would be the best companion to use for solo questing?

 

Elara Dorne is the de facto companion for all specs; however, Alric and M1-4X work great if they are geared (4X can be updated easily from commendations).

[Veritech-Beta]

I have been pvping with the 4/6/31 all out DPS spec and I just love it.

 

However i currently am decked out in centurion gear and I chose the Combat Tech armor set.

 

I am thinking of going with the Elimator champ set though as I notice that so much of my damage is from HiB and not stockstrike. I tend to skirt around the edges of combat so I dont stock strike that much.

 

Also seems there is more Aim on the eliminator set vs the Combat Tech set.

 

Any thoughts?