Mordecay Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) no i don't. reason: seen it in wow and suddenly raiding become all about meters and statistic leaving absolutely no space for a element of surprise/discovery in the fight. tbh i even say no to standalone addon - want meters, webstats, world rank1 etc. go to F**** WoW and have fun there. Edited January 10, 2012 by Mordecay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Not deriving self-confidence from a video game: shocking, I know. Ah, the "I have a life" argument. I think it should officially be classed as a fallacy in debates about game mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It leaves the game exactly the same difficulty, it just enables you to SEE whats happening instead of GUESSING and using TRIAL AND ERROR. This is pretty much the definition of difficulty. Details are details because they're not obvious at the first glance. If a tool points them out, you've just removed obscure mechanics from being obscure. Again, I personally will use tools, and I want them, but I'm not talking BS around here about how it doesn't make things easier for me. That's just a silly argument that will get us nowhere. Yes, content is more difficult if details are harder to notice. Yes content is more difficult if everyone does 3% less dps, because they couldn't stop-watch their DPS rotations efficiently enough. And so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhit Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The game is easy mode, who needs a damage meter. PUGs are beating raids. Damage meters are for losers with no self esteem. I could care less about the numbers and more about just playing. Honestly, while I am interested how I am performing, I have no problem with the game not even having a combat log. Finally a decent counter argument! And one that I agree with. TOR in its current state is such a cakewalk, that meters truly aren't needed. Its a shame TOR doesn't offer more challenges. I remember Molten Core in WoW. Took four months to finally defeat Ragnaros in the old 40 man days. Compare this to the six hours it took to clear EV. (Don't even want to talk about the difference in gear level--MC took a geared raid, EV just needs level 50s.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Let me say this... 1st its not a version of Recount, its not a "damage meter" its a parser... Parsers have been around since the 1st MMO, reading the combat logs ect. Wow's version absolutely ruined the game. People would put extra strain on the healers for that extra DPS. I could go on forever but a parser = creation of horrible DPS, the end. That's the nature of a lot of DPS players with or with out a parser. Perhaps developers should stop rewarding them with more DPS for risking it and perhaps punish them instead of the healer/tank? No instead let's blame recount in WOW because clearly in SWTOR DPS is not doing this (yes they do it as much as in WOW fun stuff) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've also never seen anyone counter this argument: I'm a guild leader, and a tank. Obviously DPS meters aren't going to allow me to brag. But, if I have 5 DPSers in a raid, they should each be doing 20% of the DPS. (for simplicity's sake I'm ignoring my output as a tank and any healer damage output). Now let's say one guy is only doing 10%. Should I just let this slide? He's doing half the damage he should be. If I'm going to be doing Nightmare Mode Operations, I need to know where my dead weight is. How am I supposed to judge his performance while I'm busy tanking a boss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is pretty much the definition of difficulty. Details are details because they're not obvious at the first glance. If a tool points them out, you've just removed obscure mechanics from being obscure. Again, I personally will use tools, and I want them, but I'm not talking BS around here about how it doesn't make things easier for me. That's just a silly argument that will get us nowhere. Yes, content is more difficult if details are harder to notice. Yes content is more difficult if everyone does 3% less dps, because they couldn't stop-watch their DPS rotations efficiently enough. And so on. Exactly. It's good to see someone who understands how these addons impact the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yet, here we are, dominating every end game encounter swtor has. Sad, but true. Honestly the endgame raids here are far easier than in other MMOs. I can actually concede to the anti crowd in that we may not even have to worry about optimal performance at all since everything is a cakewalk. This concerns me because as soon as your game gets flagged 'too easy' a bunch will walk and that doesn't bode well for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Indeed, having add ons in WoW made that game die. Oh wait, its just an extra feature which adds more functionality and flexibility. To not take examples from the market leader is suicide, lets hope the people at BW know more about the market than you. No, having addons in wow created a spitefull, nasty, elitist, demanding community that was unforgiving and made no room for the mistakes of new players. Before you attempt to come back with some sort of smart retort be aware I played for 7 years. I saw the disintegration of that community with each and every new mod that was a must have. Want to raid? bad luck you need dbm, recount, decursive (if a healer), omen, etc....what dont have it? then go sit in the corner. Then there was gear score, sorry you have run Nax 30 times on your main and this is an alt? whats your GS, no were only taking people with 3k GS. Yes I know Naxx is doable with a 2k GS but we want 3k so we can have a smooth run...sorry no Followed by achievements....YAY..................same rubbish all over again Also last time I checked Blizz lost 2.5million subs in the first 6 months of this year primarily due to the new & improved raid or die mentality introduced with Cata. Also those subs were premium paying customers in NA, Oceania, SA not the $3 a month Chinese subs. Dont even think to debate with me the pros & cons of 3rd party mods as i'm not interested in your arguement. FACT remains the majority of players dont want them, BW will decide whether to allow them or not. Edited January 10, 2012 by NoxiousAlby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 To solve this problem take a stop watch. If the boss isn't at 50% at X time your DPS sucks. Check equip of your DPS, ask for his skill trees and /kick the one you don't like. No need for ingame e-meter tools. A hand full want it to compensate for whatever and so all other should suffer under this bane. Except that if you had any experience at all, you would know that often times the person with less equipment will perform better, and that guy with the uber gear might just suck. You're against it because it leads people to stroke their e-peen, well... how is ego-stroking over gear level any different..? You want to boot the guy just because he doesn't have the gear you like, regardless if he was the best dps in the raid..? Real smart there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is pretty much the definition of difficulty. Details are details because they're not obvious at the first glance. If a tool points them out, you've just removed obscure mechanics from being obscure. Again, I personally will use tools, and I want them, but I'm not talking BS around here about how it doesn't make things easier for me. That's just a silly argument that will get us nowhere. Yes, content is more difficult if details are harder to notice. Yes content is more difficult if everyone does 3% less dps, because they couldn't stop-watch their DPS rotations efficiently enough. And so on. In fairness, this could be pulled to an absurd degree in the opposite direction. Would the game be better and more fair if they banned mouse turning and hotkeys? Would it be better if we had to use /commands? I realize I'm being a little silly, but I think you see what I'm driving at. It's a question of striking a balance along a spectrum. There is no obvious, black-and-white line to be drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolthie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've also never seen anyone counter this argument: I'm a guild leader, and a tank. Obviously DPS meters aren't going to allow me to brag. But, if I have 5 DPSers in a raid, they should each be doing 20% of the DPS. (for simplicity's sake I'm ignoring my output as a tank and any healer damage output). Now let's say one guy is only doing 10%. Should I just let this slide? He's doing half the damage he should be. If I'm going to be doing Nightmare Mode Operations, I need to know where my dead weight is. How am I supposed to judge his performance while I'm busy tanking a boss? Just roll a dice and randomly kick someone, that brings challenge to the game. L2P without addons herp a derp derp herpdeprdperpdeprp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spynnal Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 FACT remains the majority of players dont want them, BW will decide wether to allow them or not. Facts are provable. Unless you've met every player and personally asked, it's not even remotely fact. That word gets used too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) In fairness, this could be pulled to an absurd degree in the opposite direction. Would the game be better and more fair if they banned mouse turning and hotkeys? It could be pulled to an absurd degree in the opposite direction. That's a waste of time to discuss though. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltuvion Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Arguing want vs need is a sure sign that you don't actually have a valid counter argument. He wants something that has 0 impact on you; you want him not to have it because you're delusional. Apply to almost all the anti-recount posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You know, Fly text used to be an add on in other games.It hasn't been a standard feature in every MMO.You're using it now and it is a personal combat log. Yet you moan about recount, sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryphikik Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yes, of course you will deal more damage, heal better or whatever if you know your optimal rotation and can execute it while still focusing on moving out of the fire what what not, that's a good thing is it not? Or should everyone just do 50% of their damage, instead of 100% of what they are capable of because of...?? nothing? We should use no binds, no addons, **** even have half your monitored blackened out. Stupid arguments zzz. It wasn't an argument, are you literate? I was saying those kind of addons are fine, but people that deny that they make the game easier, are in denial. But again... my point was that player comfort and knowledge aren't bad kinds of increased ease. It's like forcing a pc player onto a controller and then saying they are making the game easier if they would rather play it on pc with a keyboard... Things that improve player comfort and knowledge aren't bad ways of making it easier. Bad ways are removing the need for awareness or skill. Interface/damage meters don't do that... you still have to find what does the most and execute it/be able to adjust it on the fly as situations in game change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PjPablo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Also last time I checked Blizz lost 2.5million subs in the first 6 months of this year primarily due to the new & improved raid or die mentality introduced with Cata. Also those subs were premium paying customers in NA, Oceania, SA not the $3 a month Chinese subs. More fallacies to try and support your argument. The majority of sub losses DID come from Asia which a simple Google search would show you was shared in the last investor conference. Addons did not KILL WOW. Hell, WOW isn't even killed. And if anything raiding as become more inclusive in WOW with the addition of LFR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolthie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Apply to all the anti-recount posts. And other things that would get rid of bad players Fixed. Edited January 10, 2012 by zolthie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It could be pulled to an absurd degree in the opposite direction. That's a waste of time to discuss though. It is absolutely not a waste of time. I'm trying to say that "the way the game happens to be right this second" is not any kind of magical state. It could be more "manual" or more "automatic." The anti-addon argument usually assumes there is something sacred about the game's current state of existence. Edited January 10, 2012 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You've never learned to play a game on your own so it's impossible for you to understand apparently. You can also use recount to see another person's rotation. Instant how to play lesson. Think man... No, YOU think man... Recount doesn't tell you how to play. It tells you what your output was. Nothing more. It doesn't give lessons. It doesn't provide suggestions for you. As far as I can remember, it never talked to me at all, much less told me which ability to hit, or when. Stop with the lunacy, please. Making the same claim over and over and trying to back it up by repeating that same claim is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It is absolutely not a waste of time. I'm trying to say that "the way the game happens to be right this second" is not any kind of magical state. It could be more "manual" or more "automatic." The anti-addon argument usually assumes there is something sacred about the games current state of existence. No addons just dumb down the game. That's it. It's easy enough as it is. Stop with the lunacy, please. Making the same claim over and over and trying to back it up by repeating that same claim is just silly. The irony is delicious. Edited January 10, 2012 by Gohlar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicSix Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You didn't get it do you? DPS meter have impact on every player! People will be flamed if the do not get this UBER ROXOR skills for MAX DPS. People will not get into groups if they don't reach this 9000 DPS or aggro. People lose any changs of individual gearing or skilling as they MUST take what the selve called e-peen kings dictate. Sure, numbers can help ... but only in the right hands! In the wrong hands they will destroy far more then they provide! And every game with such informations has shown, that this tools WILL BE ABUSED for whatever reason! Most players will not profit or use them at all. Just a very small group will take the right conclusions out of the provided data. And another group which isn't to underesterminat WILL use them to flame, blame, rage, destroy ANY friendly environment. THIS are the arguments AGAINST such tools! Again another post full of hyperbole, not every guild is some super top end raiding guild. If you can pull your weight your not going to have any problems getting in groups. You don't have to have uber dps or min/max but you do need to cc, use cd's watch threat ect ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzan-E Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Amazingly my brain is capable of enjoying the story of content while also thinking about numbers. Well, yes, of course it is. You're a functioning human being. *g* And I do think that 'trivialises' is too strong a statement. Try: 'shifts the emphasis from content to DPS'. Put another way: perhaps you play SW:TOR to pit yourself against the game's challenges, alongside likeminded friends. Whereas I play to experience the game's storyline while spending some time with likeminded friends. Something like Recount is important to your experience, and I have nothing against you having it. It's pretty much irrelevant to my experience, and I wouldn't personally want it. There's no conflict there. There's no "My way is better". It's just preferences. If designers were to begin to create content which required me to use something like Recount, if the game became inaccessible to me unless we devoted ourselves to the numbers challenges - then our positions would conflict, and I'd find something else to play. When people speak defensively against Recount in this thread, I suspect it's for that reason - not an innate distaste for the thing itself, and not really for the gamers who find it fun and useful. But because they're concerned that an experience they're enjoying simply won't be there anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zolthie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It wasn't an argument, are you literate? I was saying those kind of addons are fine, but people that deny that they make the game easier, are in denial. But again... my point was that player comfort and knowledge aren't bad kinds of increased ease. It's like forcing a pc player onto a controller and then saying they are making the game easier if they would rather play it on pc with a keyboard... Things that improve player comfort and knowledge aren't bad ways of making it easier. Bad ways are removing the need for awareness or skill. Interface/damage meters don't do that... you still have to find what does the most and execute it/be able to adjust it on the fly as situations in game change. There is no awareness or skill currently, so how would addons hurt this? There is no way in knowing what does the most damage or what is good or not since you got nothing to gather data and compare with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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