the Real MMO Killer

[a_Stalker]

Being forced to go along the same path of planets is pretty annoying. Thus, earning this post a +1 from me. But to be fair, story and planet depth is useless because this is not a single playe rpg. It's an mmo and the end game is what matters.

 

Yes, and no. Many players enjoy levelling different alts. Having to repeat exact same zones from level 10 onwards sucks.

[Ganadora]

Im Talking about Vanilla WoW, Not what is has become 7 years later.

Im Talking about when WoW was less than a month old it had all the content im claiming.

 

No, it didn't. The original wow, before any experience changes required the exact same zones, unless you were instance grinding. At higher levels it was even WORSE. Considering half the now present zones weren't even populated until later on or during patches.

 

TONS of zones were DEAD; devoid of any quests whatsoever, and in the event you did get a quest there (azshara for instance) it was from a major city.

 

1 path for horde and 1 for alliance, very few contested zones had multiple faction hubs -- perhaps hillsbrad and arathi were exceptions.

 

On top of that, nothing was streamlined at all; quests would require you to fly from Tanaris to Darnasuss -- that's like a 15 minute flight, AND back to turn in some quests. It was absolutely nuts.

 

And, as far as end game went; 2 raids -- Molten core and onyxia -- and yeah, I guess you could count UBRS, so 3. And you had the L60 stuff. Other games have more content at launch then wow ever did.

 

4 dungeons, 3 raids. Wow. So much there.

[blargness]

I partially agree with the original poster.

 

Balmorra to me feels like my "Alt-killer." The planet was long and drawn out and after a while I just wanted it to end...

 

I kind of feel like there should have been at least 2 choices for that level and the second choice could have had a lot of overlap with the opposing faction to open up the option for more world PVP if that's what your bag is.

 

Just something to make me want to go from 1-50 again. I know there are plenty of people that will say "hey I've got 2+ 50s it was great!" and I have to say "good for you!" A number of people in my guild though are dreading heading back into Balmorra with any alts and I'm in that list.

 

Unfortunately the main story progression is tied to the class progression so you couldn't really break that up too easily to guide the player through a fork in the road. The game itself is a victim of its own design in a way. Any expansions or additional content will probably take forever to come out due to the dialog trees, voice acting, etc.

 

I'd say that and the nature of PVP progression being extremely grindy are probably its big faults to keep growing.

[blargness]

No, it didn't. The original wow, before any experience changes required the exact same zones, unless you were instance grinding.

 

Even though you had to mob-grind/instance grind to avoid spending some time in the barrens (assuming you started on eastern kingdoms); it shouldn't excuse a developer today making you go through the exact same zones and quests for every character you might make.

 

Blizzard learned this lesson (then largely corrected it) and its one that Bioware ended up ignoring. That's a pretty big oversight in a game that's attempting to provide a higher overall level of immersion with voice acted quests and seemingly meaningful storylines.

[Sparklefrost]

4. Some way to transport party members to each other for purposes of running instances (flashpoints). And yes this is a feature that WoW LAUNCHED with. Remember summoning stones? It would have been simple to call it a shuttle transport.

.

 

 

Actually, no it didn't. Wow launched in November 2004 and implemented "Meeting Stones" in patch 1.3 (March 2005 ). These were used to look for other players queueing for the same dungeon and put you in the queue. They didn't summon anyone.

 

They were changed to summon people in patch 2.01 (December 2006), which was a full TWO YEARS after launch.

 

The only way to get people to instances in vanilla Wow was either to have a friendly warlock on hand or travel there the long way.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sparklefrost

[Astron_]

You're comparing the content of an MMO that has been out for 7+ years to an MMO that has been out for about, what, 3 weeks?

 

To put that into days you're comparing an MMO that's been out for over 2,555+ days, to an MMO that has only been out for over 21 days.

 

He's talking about 1-60 which is vanilla, those zones was available at launch...

[a_Stalker]

Even though you had to mob-grind/instance grind to avoid spending some time in the barrens (assuming you started on eastern kingdoms); it shouldn't excuse a developer today making you go through the exact same zones and quests for every character you might make.

 

Blizzard learned this lesson (then largely corrected it) and its one that Bioware ended up ignoring. That's a pretty big oversight in a game that's attempting to provide a higher overall level of immersion with voice acted quests and seemingly meaningful storylines.

 

Yes the fanboys keep using the same excuse "back in 2004 WOW was like this and like that..."

 

And it is funny because IMO back in 2004 WOW rocked and it was much better then that SWTOR is today. Or maybe I am nostalgic.

[blargness]

Actually, no it didn't. Wow launched in November 2004 and implemented "Meeting Stones" in patch 1.3 (March 2005 ) these were used to look for other players queueing for the same dungeon and put you in the queue. They didn't summon anyone.

 

There were changed to summon people in patch 2.01 (December 2006), which was a full TWO YEARS after launch.

 

The only way to get people to instances in vanilla Wow was either to have a friendly warlock on hand or travel there the long way.

 

I can't say I have fond memories of clearing out all my bags so I could grind soul shards for 45 minutes to summon half the raid!

[Sparklefrost]

I can't say I have fond memories of clearing out all my bags so I could grind soul shards for 45 minutes to summon half the raid!

 

Oh, but you were so popular when you did

[KoukosGamer]

I'm really not sure most of you were in Beta WoW or played at release. A lot fo the information posted about what WoW released with is very wrong.

 

At release Onyxia wasn't in the game yet, her portal was, but you could not zone into it. I led a raid guild at release and we eagerly awaited the opening of the event. The quest to become flagged to enter her lair wasn't in the game either. I rushed 40+ people through the quest as soon as it was patched in.

 

Molten Core wasn't finished yet. They added most of the content in Molten Core on the Feb patch almost 2 months after release. Onyxia was added in late March.

 

When WoW was released the only thing even close to raid content was Upper Blackrock Spire. You had to 5 man lower black rock spire to become keyed and it took even the most hardcore players quite some time to become keyed, I was the first on my server to become keyed for UBRS.

 

Blackwing Lair didn't come around for awhile.

 

SW:ToR has far more content and far more features than WoW at release. WoW's world was really small. The SwToR worlds are roughly the size the western continent, they are huge.

 

A lot of people need to gain some perspective and stop blowing things out of proportion just to prove a point. WoW had hardly anything at release other than a route to reach top level.

 

+1 This....BUT...today you compare TOR with WOW TODAY not 7 years ago....and TOR today costs MORE than WOW ToDAY with ALL expansions..... and if someone hasn't played any of the two games before...who in their right minds would buy SwTor if they weren't SW fans? Most of us fed up of 7 years wow...I quit also last year since vanila day 1 ( not beta and in the US servers as I was too anxious to start it).

WoW today is 10 times more rich than SwTor...but we all hope that Swtor will get its @@@@ together or it will have conans and warhammers fate...

[Andryah]

As much as a Hate WoW I think part of its survial is its replay value, in theory you can get 2 alliance charcters to max lvl and never see the same zones. turn around and take 2 horde characters to the max level and only see about half the zones you seen as an alliance. no matter what ur level is you have multiple zones to pick an choose from.

 

First off, I think you are mostly speculating, and doing so in a negative manner, rather then actually speaking from experience inside this game.

 

Played WoW for many years, leveled many alts.

 

Leveling 5 characters concurrently right now in SWTOR, pretty much did the same thing early on in WoW. And I have room in unique play for another 5 or 6 on the opposing faction later on if I choose.

 

THERE IS NO COMPARISON. SWTOR is much much better in the replay category. You get as much zone diversity as WoW, AND you get much more diversity within a repeat zone on a replay precisely because each character class has a unique story line which draws you through a zone in a different sequence, with different story and different results and rewards. Plus you aquire new companions as you level and each one of them allows a shift in play style, and even quest sequencing in some cases.

 

By comparison, Rift was probably the worst.

 

You can speak for yourself, but it is not relevant for you to speak for others.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Andryah

[SlickDevlan]

First Off I Like this game alot better than WoW but heres what I feel is what will Kill this game.

 

Any one remember DCUniverse Online? The funnest MMO ever for about a week (insert insults here). They even boasted having there subscription base grow the fastest of a MMO ever, Just Like SWTOR claims, (I think) But What killed DCUO was Content, and thats what i feel will kill this game. Let Me Explain

 

In WoW you can take a new (Alliance) character and get that character to lvl 60 without ever leaving your starting Continent. then you can make a 2nd chracter and again you can take that character from 1 to 60 again without ever leaving that 2nd continent.

 

SWTOR you get a character to lvl 50, then ur second character only has his starting planet as new content, then its follow the same order of planets where 85% of the quest are the same. (yes i had much fun playing every characters starting quest but...)

 

As much as a Hate WoW I think part of its survial is its replay value, in theory you can get 2 alliance charcters to max lvl and never see the same zones. turn around and take 2 horde characters to the max level and only see about half the zones you seen as an alliance. no matter what ur level is you have multiple zones to pick an choose from.

 

I Love you SWTOR (not in that way) and i want to see you succeed so bring n the flamers and call me a troll but if just one developer sees this and sees the sense in what im saying, hopefully it will be all good.

 

P.S.

i Hate Hutt Ball! really really hate it especially since 90% of all PVP games i join are hutball. Wheres the randomness!

 

Aside from Azeroth, which is about 20% of the game's content, the rest of 61-end game is pretty much the same with a few, very minor exceptions.

 

I jsut don't understand how so many people keep making posts about "WoW did X better" when most of the time they haven't.

[Ozzone]

People that want to keep comparing SWTOR to WOW and saying WOW is/was better should go back to playing WOW.

 

The rest of us will not miss you.

[Jalliah]

Well I suppose that some will just write this off as a 'fangirl' reply. I'm really not or at least not to the point that I was following game development, perordered etc and was super excited about this game. I didn't even buy it on release.

 

This is more of a different strokes for different folks reply. Even with all of the current content of WOW it wasn't enough to keep me engaged for more then a few months. I max leveled a toon, started doing some raids, did PVP etc. Started a few alts which never got that far because the game itself just didn't do it for me. Even with all the choices that made leveling different I dreaded and hated working on my alts. Dullsville for me. And I never got into the story. Barely ever read quest box texts and for most of the time didn't really know or care that much why I was killing x mobs in area A in relation to the larger world story.

 

I completely agree that WOW at least now has more replay content. However just having that content doesn't mean that it's somehow good or better for everyone.

 

I moved onto Rift (which I still raid log in). It is very similar to WOW's structure. It had less content at the beginning the WOW does now of course but for whatever reason I enjoyed that more. I ended up know more of the overall story and the point of doing quest etc. Also haven't had much issue with wanting to level alts even though it really is the same experience due to lack of choices at least compared to WOW.

 

 

I guess my point is that whether people like a game or not is influenced by more then just content that's available. If I was just influenced by amount of content I would be playing WOW. I'm not and thank goodness. I don't like that game at all.

[Sparklefrost]

Yes the fanboys keep using the same excuse "back in 2004 WOW was like this and like that..."

 

And it is funny because IMO back in 2004 WOW rocked and it was much better then that SWTOR is today. Or maybe I am nostalgic.

 

Yes it did rock..because it was the most accessible MMO that had ever been released. It was different to anything that had come before, in that it was focused on quests, quests and more quests.

 

I played Daoc and SWG prior to WoW and there were hardly any actual quests. It was a case of levelling up through killing things or getting kill missions from the guards in Daoc, or the mission terminals in SWG. (solo groups, anyone? )

 

And yes, you are being nostalgic. It was another era of gaming. Expectations were MUCH lower back then, and therefore for any game to have the same impact now, it would have to be 10 times better than WoW ever was.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sparklefrost

[SlickDevlan]

He's talking about 1-60 which is vanilla, those zones was available at launch...

 

Actually, in vanilla, you HAD to go everywhere if you wanted to level through quests. There was simply no real choice between doing that or mindlessly grinding mobs.

[RhenMerchant]

Actually, no it didn't. Wow launched in November 2004 and implemented "Meeting Stones" in patch 1.3 (March 2005 ).

 

 

So your excuse is that since WoW took four months to add it its Okay for a modern MMO to launch with out it? Sorry buddy that's a sad excuse, no let me correct that, its a fanboy excuse.

 

Leave the fanboy out, SW:ToR should have launched with it.

[blargness]

Aside from Azeroth, which is about 20% of the game's content, the rest of 61-end game is pretty much the same with a few, very minor exceptions.

 

I jsut don't understand how so many people keep making posts about "WoW did X better" when most of the time they haven't.

 

TBC largely followed this mantra but Wrath broke it (and Cataclysm to a lesser degree.) Yes these are expansions but they were designed with replay value up front. Something lacking in ToR. The "minor exceptions" you're referring to are different leveling entry points and separate near level cap zones. In Wrath, Dragonblight and Icecrown were the only ones you pretty much always had to do assuming you gunned for the quest achievement in the entry zone and dragonblight.

 

Even still, you can largely skip an entire area and not have to resort to mindless grinding. In SWTOR you absolutely must hit every planet if only to progress the story.

 

Balmorra drives me insane and I doubt I ever want to do that place again. A LOT of players have that planet they just absolutely HATE but they absolutely MUST go through it again to level an alt. These are the people on the fence about subscriptions that the "community" should really be supporting for the betterment of the game.

Edited January 8, 2012 by blargness

[Webstravaganza]

He is talking about 1-60 content. Almost all of which was completely revamped in 1 expansion which took them about 6 months to complete. So... yeah, I think its a fair enough comparison.

 

Changing vanilla wow to Cataclysm doesn't in any way compare to the amount of working of building a new vanilla game.

 

There's so much more work involved in creating a new product, I don't even know where to begin explaining to you how wrong your assumption is.

[artilleryshell]

You're comparing the content of an MMO that has been out for 7+ years to an MMO that has been out for about, what, 3 weeks?

 

To put that into days you're comparing an MMO that's been out for over 2,555+ days, to an MMO that has only been out for over 21 days.

 

The 3 week old mmorpg is in direct competition with the 7 year old rpg, so the comparison is valid.

[Andryah]

So your excuse is that since WoW took four months to add it its Okay for a modern MMO to launch with out it? Sorry buddy that's a sad excuse, no let me correct that, its a fanboy excuse.

 

Leave the fanboy out, SW:ToR should have launched with it.

 

Actually what he is doing is exhibiting two very real human responses: acceptance and anicipation.

 

A new MMO, lots of things at launch, lots of things to be added in coming patches. Game is dynamic, and will change over time. Expecting and embracing what is coming rather then /ranting about what is yet to be.

 

You on the other hand, want an MMO that behaves like an FPS shooter (complete and finished right out of the box), so you can beat it in 20 days and then /rant about how bored you are and that you must move on to something else.

 

It's two different mind sets. You are entitled to yours, and he is entitled to his.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Andryah

[blargness]

Changing vanilla wow to Cataclysm doesn't in any way compare to the amount of working of building a new vanilla game.

 

There's so much more work involved in creating a new product, I don't even know where to begin explaining to you how wrong your assumption is.

 

To be fair, a quest writer at Blizzard doesn't have to consider forking decisions, etc. Nor is there much dialog recorded. Every quest is delivered via the same feux quest scroll and your impact to the quest is either to do it or not do it.

 

I think Bioware took a big risk with the approach they took and I love it but how will it "scale" with the player's consumption of content? If I go through all of the game's content in 6 months then I'll want to play an alt. If I remembered I hated doing the Nar Shadda quests then I might not bother and shelve the game until an expansion is forthcoming.

[SlickDevlan]

TBC largely followed this mantra but Wrath broke it (and Cataclysm to a lesser degree.) Yes these are expansions but they were designed with replay value up front. Something lacking in ToR. The "minor exceptions" you're referring to are different leveling entry points and separate near level cap zones. In Wrath, Dragonblight and Icecrown were the only ones you pretty much always had to do assuming you gunned for the quest achievement in the entry zone and dragonblight.

 

Even still, you can largely skip an entire area and not have to resort to mindless grinding. In SWTOR you absolutely must hit every planet if only to progress the story.

 

Balmorra drives me insane and I doubt I ever want to do that place again. A LOT of players have that planet they just absolutely HATE but they absolutely MUST go through it again to level an alt. These are the people on the fence about subscriptions that the "community" should really be supporting for the betterment of the game.

 

OK. So you're saying a different banal world with a nearly identical linear leveling chain that you are only engaged in because you happened to be passing through is better than a story driven chain where you are the focal point?

 

I guess if a different landscape where you can gather a totally different animal's random body part is a vital part of the leveling experience more power to you.

[dashspeed]

You're forgetting that Horde and Alliance only really have 2 choices for every level bracket. This isn't too far from what SWTOR is offering. You can skip some planets totally if you mix in PvP/Space battle while leveling, planets which you can decide to complete with another alt.

[SnoggyMack]

But What killed DCUO was Content, and thats what i feel will kill this game. Let Me Explain

 

Nah, what killed DCUO was the biggest and most reported on security breach of 2011.