The Secret to Guardian Tanking

[Tigana]

This is it!! The guide you’ve been looking for. Right here!

 

Seraphimm

 

 

I've been leveling as Def/Vig since beta as well and I find it's the best way to deal with lack of threat-increasing skills as DPS becomes more of a threat in Flashpoints. My First 7 Points go into Def for skill cost reduction, then the rest go into Vig like so and finally back into Def till 50.

 

YMMV, but I've been able to keep aggro in Flashpoints (up through the first 3 since Early Access) and I've had no problem with Elites/Champions/Story Bosses.

[Jediwran]

This guide and the comments in it have really helped me

[Ashmadai]

I am just going straight defense so far, and I'm doing fine and enjoying it. I like having warding call and some of the other skills in that tree. I might try the hybrid spec at 50 when I have Guardian leap and can actually benefit from it giving me the effect too, but not until then.

 

I like having multiple options for viable tank specs like this. It's nice. =)

[seraphimm]

To add a bit of Q & A

 

Some random questions I've gotten regarding this posting. Most of which comes through private messages, some of which was asked in post replies, and one of which came from a fan who recognized me in game - YES!!

 

I have been busy leveling Seraphimm, as well as several other classes I enjoy. This follow on post is to add some bits of info I feel works best for me currently.

 

Q - What is the best way to become a great Tank

 

A - I have always said "If you want to be a great Tank, Roll a Healer" // Knowing how to tank, also requires what you need to do to to maximize your incoming Heals. The best way to do that is to roll a healer in the same game, see what it takes and learn how to help your healer when you are the one taking the beating!

 

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Q - Which is a better Tank, a Trooper (Bounty Hunter), a Consular (Inquisitor), or a Guardian (Juggernaut).

 

A - In my opinion "better" is not a term that can be used in this way. All Advanced classes seem very well balanced. That being said I have found the Guardian has both advantages and disadvantages to the other 'Tanks'.

 

I have also seen that the longer/harder the fight the more 'advantageous' the guardian is. Let me explain:

 

The Consular and the Trooper use what I like to call "DEPLETION" tanking. That is they start at the beginning of a fight with a bag full of resources that is depleted to perform actions. Consulars have a Force pool, Troopers have ammo, and Bounty Hunters have Temperature (In the case of the BH you actually 'build' heat but when you 'run out' of normal temperature (max heat) you shut down.)

 

Now the depletion method is very beneficial at the beginning of the fight where you can spam a lot of abilities to get aggro/hate. (Advantage)

The disadvantage comes when things start to go wrong. As a depletion tank you will use more of your resources in emergencies, possibly crippling your recharge and making longer fights harder. If you ever get under 30% of your resource it will begin to recharge at a very low rate and it becomes easy to bottom out, essentially ruining your tank.

 

The Guardian uses what I like to call "Aggregate' methods. That is you can create a rotation that works to build the resource you need, in this case Focus. The guardians have a much harder time getting the initial aggro/hate because the resource pool starts empty. (Disadvantage)

However as many has said the longer the fight the MORE focus you will get, the more you get hit the more focus you will get, the more you do (swing/Sunder/Saber Throw) the more you have of the resource you need. Advantage essentially it means it is nearly impossible to break the tank of a Jedi Guardian through attrition. He is weakest at the very beginning of a fight but maintains unlimited resources at a constant rate throughout a fight no matter how long it takes.... depending on how you play that could be a major advantage....

 

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Q - Why do all the Jedi guardian abilities seem so 'Underwhelming"

 

A - Consider what you know about this game, and about other games. REACTIVE tanks who are quick on the draw are best in most games I've played, it makes sense for the tank to be reactive to the boss/mob you are tanking. That is Boss begins some ability you respond with some defense, continuously. You become a great tank if you anticipate the next ability and are ready with your defense.

 

In this game, you are rewarded for 'PRO-ACTIVE' skill use. Warding call for instance, reduces incoming damage by 40% for 10 seconds. This works like crap when you are under 20% life and die within 5 seconds.... you feel like the ability did not do a good job of saving your life.

 

Most end game bosses hit for over 1000 on normal and some hit for 3000 on Nightmare. Now even with Warding call active you are going to be taking 600 damage a swing on normal. If you wait until you have 1500 HP before activating you will die in 3 swings, getting maybe 5 out of those 10 seconds of actual use and stopping about 1200 damage.

 

Now imagine you used that early on in the fight, you were close to full health and the Warding call lasted the full 10 seconds. In the same scenario it stopped a full 2400 damage and better still slowed the rate at which the healer had to use heals....

 

Healers in this game have the same "depletion' mechanics, that is the more/faster they do something the less they will be able to do in total. The good heals are generally not instant casts and it's real easy to get your healer into a rut they can't recover from.

 

I know it seems weird that you would intentionally pop your cool-downs early, but things are a little different here. Just like a DPS fight, you NEED TO LEARN A TANK ROTATION.

 

I'll say it again, with these mechanics rotating all your defensive cool-downs at a measured pace using them all as often as possible is the best way to maximize their efficiency and help your healer rotate a few free shots into his rotation letting his resources regenerate. ROTATE, ROTATE, ROTATE.

 

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Q - While leveling and before 30 I'm having issues with AOE threat

 

A - This is just my opinion, but your first 3 points should be in swelling winds. Before you do anything else, making your Force sweep 30% more powerful by level 13 makes things a lot easier. I did this, then went full defense until Warding call (11 points) this got me most of the defensive and damage mitigation abilities before 25. From there the plan is to return to the vigilance tree until unremitting. This seems to maximize the defensive and offensive abilities as early as possible. remember early on damage is the best/only way of getting threat.

 

Of course this is just my opinion..............!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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Q - Seraphimm, how did you become so good looking

 

A - Good Genes!

 

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Seriously, things are different in every game; but even more so in this one. Setting up a defensive rotation saves you AND your healer a lot of frustration, and becomes more efficient in those longer fights. Be ready for anything, but an unused ability in this environment is just extra damage you're taking unnecessarily.

 

I hope this guide continues to help, and I will continue to add to it, as the game progresses.

 

Thanks to all for the kind words and support!

Edited December 20, 2011 by seraphimm

[Solonius]

/bumping this again, just because its that good of a thread.

 

seraphimm, props for this write up, very well done.

 

follow the build, know your character and their limitations, and get down your combos and lvling will come easy as will flashpoint and heroic tanking.

[Hulkster]

I can't decide between Dust Storm and Momentum.

 

It's a choice between 3/3 in Momentum and 0/2 in Momentum, or 1/3 in Momentum and 2/2 in Dust Storm.

 

I think Dust Storm is probably more useful from a pure PVE tanking point of view, but Momentum is more 'fun' and more use in soloing and PVP.

 

I also don't like going only partially into skills, ie 1/3 in Momentum, as it seems like a waste, I want to know if I can rely on it or not so I can build the Momentum proc into my play, not only have it a third of the time.

 

I think I am talking myself into the 3/3 Momentum option, but what do people think?

[Varaben]

I've been leveling as Def/Vig since beta as well and I find it's the best way to deal with lack of threat-increasing skills as DPS becomes more of a threat in Flashpoints. My First 7 Points go into Def for skill cost reduction, then the rest go into Vig like so and finally back into Def till 50.

 

YMMV, but I've been able to keep aggro in Flashpoints (up through the first 3 since Early Access) and I've had no problem with Elites/Champions/Story Bosses.

 

 

I like your idea there. I was thinking of going back to defensive after getting effluence, but I like waiting for overhead slash.

[blindstrike]

Ty very much.

I had the pleasure to have a very good guardian within a team in an instance.

He inspired me so much that i want to roll one as soon my main is 50

 

Now this massive and detailed "book of knowledge" will be my guide .

 

I am very new to tanking so ty very much

[MindBullet]

Just chiming in to also say how much this guide has helped me. Thank you, good sir.

[Xalt]

Excellent guide, thanks!

[Yngwe]

This is a great guide and thank you for it. I am still debating whether to go the hybrid route or straight defense. I really wish there was some better info on Blade Barrier. I don't have a ton of playtime, so I figure things will shake out a bit more and maybe be a little revamped before I hit max level.

 

I noticed some pro tips being slung about in these pages and wanted to add my own. Just for background, I have been playing mmo's for about five years now, and have been a fairly accomplished raider for most of that time. I started as ranged dps but love to tank and have rolled a Guardian.

 

My best tip - what really separates good tanks from okay tanks is "court sense." Think of Tom Brady leading a drive in the final 2:00 minutes to win the game. Know where your enemies are and who you need to concentrate on. Most importantly, however, watch your teammates. Best way to do that is to actively manage your camera. As you are corralling the mobs, swing the camera to the best position to watch your teammates. If you see anything on your healer, peel it off. If you see multiple or strong mobs on a dps, intervene.

 

There is nothing more satisfying or that will more quickly demonstrate your skill than reigning in a mob that is on its way to the ranged player before it even hurts him/her.

[LightenUp]

Only positive posts so far?

 

Thanks everyone, It may not be perfect, but I hope it helps!

 

So my "master" I have a padawan question for you.

I am currently playing at L-17 but am unable to figure out how to get into the Advanced Guardian training mode?

 

Is there a specific quest out there for Advanced training?

 

Any help and guidance would be grateful.

[Vitalsine]

Thanks for the great guide Seraphimm. So far so good on my end, funny too because I have making essentially the same build you mentioned before even reading the post . Your rotation sounds pretty solid, I will give it a shot. Im still only level 27, but have yet to experience any issues tanking the first 3 flashpoints. Hoping to run into some more challenges at some point. I will be checking back often to see how the guide improves. Cant wait till we get to run through some stuff in endgame. Soon enough! Edited December 21, 2011 by Vitalsine

[Ullric]

Hi!

 

Great guide!!!

 

I have a simple question...

I noticed the suggested builds stay kinda half in two trees and none gets to the "top" talent in either tree.

I used to be a WoW player and in there, that's bad.

What's the story on that, here in SWTOR?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Ullric

[seraphimm]

So my "master" I have a padawan question for you.

I am currently playing at L-17 but am unable to figure out how to get into the Advanced Guardian training mode?

 

Is there a specific quest out there for Advanced training?

 

Any help and guidance would be grateful.

 

The "quest' to make you choose Guardian or sentinel is right at the entrance to the fleet when you graduate and move out of the starting zone. It is available upon hitting 10 and is offered by a kindly older Jedi.

 

If you've gone to 17 you must have accidently gotten it and aren't aware? Maybe you picked up sentinel by mistake? Are you able to use 2 lightsabers?

 

You don't have access to a talent tree unless you choose, it couldn't be easy to go to 17 without spending some talent points. I would ask for assistance in game

[seraphimm]

This is a great guide and thank you for it. I am still debating whether to go the hybrid route or straight defense. I really wish there was some better info on Blade Barrier. I don't have a ton of playtime, so I figure things will shake out a bit more and maybe be a little revamped before I hit max level.

 

I noticed some pro tips being slung about in these pages and wanted to add my own. Just for background, I have been playing mmo's for about five years now, and have been a fairly accomplished raider for most of that time. I started as ranged dps but love to tank and have rolled a Guardian.

 

My best tip - what really separates good tanks from okay tanks is "court sense." Think of Tom Brady leading a drive in the final 2:00 minutes to win the game. Know where your enemies are and who you need to concentrate on. Most importantly, however, watch your teammates. Best way to do that is to actively manage your camera. As you are corralling the mobs, swing the camera to the best position to watch your teammates. If you see anything on your healer, peel it off. If you see multiple or strong mobs on a dps, intervene.

 

There is nothing more satisfying or that will more quickly demonstrate your skill than reigning in a mob that is on its way to the ranged player before it even hurts him/her.

 

I fully intend to continue testing blade barrier. I am making sure I don't respec until my thirtys so I will be able to afford to switch back and forth often enough to keep current.

 

I would already be there, but I spent early release getting 6 different characters off their starting worlds so I wouldn't have to fight against the flood after release

 

Plus since then I have been testing my trooper Healer to see if they have any benefits over a sawbones scoundrel in the healing department. With 4 characters in their teens and 2 more in the 20's, plus full work schedule, christmas preps, and a paper for my master's degree due in Jan I just haven't had the time to put into my Guardian as I want.

 

I'm off for a week after Christmas though so Seraphimm should be able to go into full test mode before the new year.

 

I will also update my guide as I feel appropriate if they make any changes.. Or if Blade Barrier gets a bump in power

I hope

[seraphimm]

Holy Sticky Post Batman. We've been stickied.

 

Thanks for all the support and bumps .

 

Now I'll have to make sure I keep it updated with all the latest and greatest.

[Vassive]

Ok so I didn't read every single response so I'm sorry if someone has already brought up this point.... but I believe you said that primary tank talents stop at tier 5? I mean... you couldnt really be more wrong... I don't want you to think I'm hating on your post too hard cause you bring up some good stuff and good points... but your spec is well... wrong put plainly... lemme throw out my final level 50 spec and explain the differences I have for ya and we'll see what you think.

 

My spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500f0GcubrouRZhGM.1

 

Your spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500rMG0uMzZhGrMMhzzM.1

 

3/3 momentum is absolutely crucial because of the tier 5 talent Blade Barrier which triggers from Blade Storm which is a key rotation ability that can be used in any situation (because of the 2/2 Courage talent in tier 4) which gives moderate threat and a more than decent amount of straight damage absorb..... Blade Barrier and Courage (which also effects Force Sweep) are talents that you skip completely. Which is wrong.

 

You pick up the talent Victory Rush. Not a terrible idea by any means but for final end game tanking at level 50 is not necessary in any way because of Combat Focus and how it stacks with the tier 6 talent Cyclonic Sweeps... giving you almost endless focus after your beginning burst.

 

You skip Pacification completely which, even with what your spec is gearing towards (high threat), is a terrible idea. The talent gives a 15% increase to the damage of most of your main tanking abilities... huge for threat gen.

 

Only 1/2 shield spec? You're kidding me... you skipped an addition 2% increase to mitigate damage? Tanks mitigate damage. That's what they are for.

 

You pick up Command.... great if you're a beginning tank having a shorter cooldown on your oh sh@t button and great for pvp. Being in the final level 50 tanking build? No. If you haven't figured it out at least shortly after 50... then maybe tanking isn't for you... no shame in that.

 

You don't pick up Hilt Strike or Force Stasis. Hilt Strike is a huge threat gen move... absolutely necessary and both abilities give you much more control over each and every pull.

 

On to the next tier! I've already covered Cyclonic Strikes above so that leaves that you don't pick up Inner Peace. Now this talent could actually be argued against depending on what you're raiding and if there is alot of elemental and internal damage in that particular raid.... but really... these two types of damage can probably be assumed to be pretty much anywhere and getting a 5 second longer time on your Enure is awesome.

 

And then you don't pick up Guardian Slash... a huge threat gen ability as well as giving 3 stacks of sunder which is reflected in more immediate damage for you and your group.

 

Now your spec... probably higher threat gen through damage than mine... I can't say that's wrong or right as I haven't experimented with it... but as far as making a successful tank (aka damage mitigation)? Yours is plain inferior.... hell ... even if you wanted high threat gen over damage mit by specing in to the Vigilance tree your spec should look more like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500f0Gcu0MZhGMMrhzzz.1

 

I come off as rather volatile ... but really I'm just trying to help... any questions or comments can be brought up to me here.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Vassive

[seraphimm]

You skip Pacification completely which, even with what your spec is gearing towards (high threat), is a terrible idea. The talent gives a 15% increase to the damage of most of your main tanking abilities... huge for threat gen.

 

Only 1/2 shield spec? You're kidding me... you skipped an addition 2% increase to mitigate damage? Tanks mitigate damage. That's what they are for.

 

You pick up Command.... great if you're a beginning tank having a shorter cooldown on your oh sh@t button and great for pvp. Being in the final level 50 tanking build? No. If you haven't figured it out at least shortly after 50... then maybe tanking isn't for you... no shame in that.

 

You don't pick up Hilt Strike or Force Stasis. Hilt Strike is a huge threat gen move... absolutely necessary and both abilities give you much more control over each and every pull.

 

On to the next tier! I've already covered Cyclonic Strikes above so that leaves that you don't pick up Inner Peace. Now this talent could actually be argued against depending on what you're raiding and if there is alot of elemental and internal damage in that particular raid.... but really... these two types of damage can probably be assumed to be pretty much anywhere and getting a 5 second longer time on your Enure is awesome.

.

 

Fair Enough. let's debate.

 

Pacification < Swelling winds - if you don't take Hilt Strike. Why pay 3 points for 15% when the same 3 points get's you 30% Since even with the +15% Cyclone sweep does crap damage.

 

Command reduces the CD on Challenging call and force push by 30%. These now become your hilt strike replacements. Challenging call wasn't meant to be an OH Sh*t button, the cool-down is too quick for that. it was meant to be used. If you have a need to hit an OH SH*T button every 30 seconds, you're doing it wrong.

 

Hilt strike has no time modifiers. With a 60 second cool-down and no range it is less useful than saber throw, which has range AND gives focus. Since most fights last under a minute your "Each and every fight" argument goes out the window because your hilt strike is on CD every other. If you're talking about longer single target boss fights that makes hilt strike useful, it'd be more efficient to rotate challenging call and taunt every 15 seconds. Then you could almost ignore threat all together as 6 of every 15 seconds the mob would be FORCED to fight you (NOTE: This isn't a suggestion, it's a horrible way to tank. I mention it because as bad as it is it would still be better than 1 strike a minute with a threat modifier (The stun doesn't work against some elites))

 

Force Stasis is useless to a tank. a small 3 second hold with small damage is just a distraction, you have enough else to do. Leave the CC to those that can perma control.

 

The hit you take to your focus because you skip cyclonic strikes is more than made up for by having a totally free Force Sweep. Free force sweeps means you don't have to worry about focus to use it. It gets used every time, even when your completely out of focus.... THAT is a better Oh Sh*t button.

 

Oh and the 2% shield chance you lose from shield spec, can be made up for by a 21 point Shield Bonus Augmentation in your off hand shield generator. I believe it's about 7 points per 1% chance to shield proc below 30 and climbs to about 10 points per 1% towards the top.

 

Also cyclonic sweeps generally led to focus flooding, at some point in the fight I had more focus than I could use with cool-downs... Which is a waste. You should have a constant increase in focus that keeps you full, more than that and you wasted points.

 

Enure is garbage. Long CD and you lose the HP too quick. 1 maybe 2 heals and the healer needs to get you over 30% because when the time is up you're going to lose them again. Enure caused more deaths than it averted.

 

If the fight can be won within the next 10 seconds that you pop Enure, chances are it can be won without a tank. Just take your death and let the DPS burn it down. If you pop enure at the beginning of the fight you get what 'MIGHT' be called a useful buffer, but then 10 seconds later you get what amounts to a single hit for 30% of your hit points. Even if you were topped off at the time it'll just send the healer into depletion quicker.

 

Guardian strike looks good, but with improved sundering strike you technically apply 6 stacks of sunder armor every 13.5 seconds. What use are the extra sunders on your 15 second strike? Everyone agrees that sundering strike is your primary strike due to damage and focus generation. You're going to use it and 5 stacks is the max, the sunders on GS are wasted after second 9. And in every multi-mob fight, using force sweep the first 10 seconds is always better than a single GS.

 

(Force Leap - SS - Strike - SS - ? ) is about 10 seconds. What are you putting in the "?"... I'm putting Force sweep in there 8 of 10 times if it's the first 10 seconds of the fight. The other 2 of 10 I'm okay with Overhead slash since it has a NINE second CD and I can use it every rotation if I want.

 

I hope I don't sound defensive, I'm not. these are my opinions, and your defense spec looks like every other. Which I said was certainly viable, I just think it's not as efficient.

Edited December 22, 2011 by seraphimm

[Unaki]

You know you only lose any bonus health you had at the end of the Enure duration right? It doesn't take any of your base health.

[TheTropheus]

*nevermind* Edited December 22, 2011 by TheTropheus

[Locien]

Seraphimm, I don't know if you are familiar with the site elitist jerks for world of warcraft but I have found something similar for SWTOR.

 

Immortal Defense Compendium A Tanks Guide To The Galaxy

 

I think you should get in on this site and share your thoughts there.

[Thollocks]

thanks for posting this seraphimm, it was a really nice guide for some alternate tanking strategies which made sense to me.

 

dont get down by all the people that link fotm elitist jerks and rage for not copying them exactly this was a good guide

 

p.s post above that wasn't aimed at you

Edited December 23, 2011 by Monghunter

[LogicaLInsanity]

Hey thanks for the guide! this is definitely useful to get me started on a few ideas with my particular build.

[Jaysun]

this guide is spot on my tank is similarly spec'd at 30.. really see no reason to spend more than 17-19 points in defense as some of the abilities are 'bleh' Hybrid spec is the way to go

 

well done OP!