zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Hahahah, came in here to post this. I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught this. 'It's a team game, not a game for Rambos,'. ----> 'DPS should *never* be able to kill a healer 1v1,'. Uhhhh what? I fail to see the issue. Are you that obtuse? One has nothing to do with the other. PVP is a team game. If a DPS faces a healer 1v1 for whatever reason the only way they should be able to down the healer is because they start at an advantage like an Op from Stealth or they surprise the healer and push them into a bad decision. If both see each other coming and decide to fight alone for whatever reason it should be a stalemate as long as both are equally skilled and geared. The DPS should be unable to burn through the heals and the Healer should be unable to put out enough pressure because of their low damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tservo Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Should also mention I have 6% or so pvp gear atm. Maybe will get a lot better if I could actually get something other than implants from the champ bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cydel Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 In a balanced PVP scenario a Healer vs DPS should have the DPS unable to out damage the healing and the Healer should be unable to put out enough damage to threaten the DPS class. So you want healers to do NO damage? If what you said is true and the DPS class itself can't heal, a healer would have to never be able to damage the DPS class or by this standard given enough time the Healer would slowly drain the DPS class to death. 1v1 scenarios should come down to proper use of abilities, timely use of interrupts, the victor should be the better player class aside. I haven't seen anything right now that gimps Healers in 1v1 scenarios either. My smuggler healer knives people for 4.5k constantly. With that timed burst and his heals he's a very tough opponent 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kricys Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) My philosophy in PVP has always been that 1v1 no DPS should be able to kill a healer. Just because another game did it doesn't mean it's right. If you don't want to be killed by a solo dps, find a tank friend and have them guard you. Edited January 7, 2012 by Kricys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Bottom line is people wouldn't be complaining if there was a healing buff for PvE instead of a healing debuff for PvP. It's just the mechanics of the game. Trauma has nothing to do with balancing healers against other players...it has to do with balancing PvP numbers vs. PvE numbers. Crying about Trauma is like crying that you can't use Opportune Strike and Call on the Force in PvP. It's a mechanic that was designed around the separation of PvE and PvP and will never be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 A good healer can outheal some of the best DPSers. That's with the current debuff in place too. Im gonna go with player skill on this one like so many other posts here. Click the following link, compare the kills of the enemy team vs ours with our super healer. Then tell me you don't think his healing made a difference lol. I underlined some key points in green. Also, he's healed for more than this, 750k in one game I just don't have a pic. http://www.cydel.net/cadia/images/healingfine.jpg Showing us your pre-made stats doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion of the need for a perma MS. If I go in with my Guild my healer partner and I can rock the house as well from a chart stand point. Your chart is also meaningless out of context because as an Op healer (same as your healer)I can keep rolling HoT's and RN on our group to top the list as well. Those HoT's are nice for padding. I'm not saying your group isn't good or that he's not a great WZ healer just that your post doesn't really add anything to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm not saying your group isn't good or that he's not a great WZ healer just that your post doesn't really add anything to the discussion. How is that true? Everything in this game is designed around coordinated and skilled group play. I.e. Trauma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cydel Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm not saying your group isn't good or that he's not a great WZ healer just that your post doesn't really add anything to the discussion. My point was he healed for more than ANY DPSer did in damage. Your post was why is there a -30% heal debuff in PVP. You then said healers should be able to outheal a single DPS. I'm showing you that it is very possible to do so. Even with the -30% debuff, a healer can still put out more healing than a DPS can do in damage. That pic proves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Bottom line is people wouldn't be complaining if there was a healing buff for PvE instead of a healing debuff for PvP. It's just the mechanics of the game. Trauma has nothing to do with balancing healers against other players...it has to do with balancing PvP numbers vs. PvE numbers. Crying about Trauma is like crying that you can't use Opportune Strike and Call on the Force in PvP. It's a mechanic that was designed around the separation of PvE and PvP and will never be changed. A system that requires a Buff or Debuff of any kind is broken. How is that not clear? Are you saying that Bioware is unable to balance PVE encounters and PVP matches so the healing requirements are the same? Let's say the Trauma effect was baseline. Bioware has such bad encounter designers they can't balance the damage that Bosses put out with that level of healing in mind? The idea that Trauma is meant to offset the superhuman healing needed for PVE is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GyroGate Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 How is a Healer with Guard going against a DPS a 1v1 scenario? How is a Tank plus Healer vs DPS relevant to the discussion? ...and screw you with "a Healer SHOULD lose to a DPS 1v1". LMAO are you kidding me? Equally skilled players of any role should create a stalemate 1v1 if both play perfectly. It's called balance which you seem to have forgotten. In a balanced PVP scenario a Healer vs DPS should have the DPS unable to out damage the healing and the Healer should be unable to put out enough damage to threaten the DPS class. Victory should come because on of the players messed up somehow not because you think DPS should rule the roost. What a joke. The entire point of my post was that this game is and will never be 1v1 based. It's a team game, and people need to understand that. If you increase the survivability of a healer as much as YOU want, then it will be imbalanced in a GROUP setting. I'm sorry, but you clearly are the joke here, and it's not my fault you don't realize how this game works. I don't even agree about your stalemate point either, as I have said earlier: a healer should NOT be able to tank a dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cydel Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 A system that requires a Buff or Debuff of any kind is broken. How is that not clear? Are you saying that Bioware is unable to balance PVE encounters and PVP matches so the healing requirements are the same? Maybe? but they didn't. Neither did WoW (thats why they invented mortal strike in the first place, and later gave it to multiple classes) Regardless, the system they did choose seems to be working fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HydroBuzzed Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Bottom line is people wouldn't be complaining if there was a healing buff for PvE instead of a healing debuff for PvP. It's just the mechanics of the game. Trauma has nothing to do with balancing healers against other players...it has to do with balancing PvP numbers vs. PvE numbers. Crying about Trauma is like crying that you can't use Opportune Strike and Call on the Force in PvP. It's a mechanic that was designed around the separation of PvE and PvP and will never be changed. This. Healing in warzones without the trauma debuff makes the healees literally unstoppable. As a lvl 25/26 sage I would stand in the corner or out of sight and easily heal a lvl 50 dps/tank (pre-patch obviously) while he /facepalmed 3, 4, or 5 people. It was pretty ****** actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 A system that requires a Buff or Debuff of any kind is broken. How is that not clear? Are you saying that Bioware is unable to balance PVE encounters and PVP matches so the healing requirements are the same? Let's say the Trauma effect was baseline. Bioware has such bad encounter designers they can't balance the damage that Bosses put out with that level of healing in mind? The idea that Trauma is meant to offset the superhuman healing needed for PVE is ludicrous. Lol, I'm not saying it was the best way to implement balance. BW has the numbers, they know what's necessary. If you've got a problem with it, play your DPS spec--hell, yours is the FOTM right now and tears it up in WZs. Otherwise, get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 My point was he healed for more than ANY DPSer did in damage. Your post was why is there a -30% heal debuff in PVP. You then said healers should be able to outheal a single DPS. I'm showing you that it is very possible to do so. Even with the -30% debuff, a healer can still put out more healing than a DPS can do in damage. That pic proves that. Do you understand the difference between AoE healing or damage and Single Target healing or damage? That's all your chart shows. That multiple healing targets equates to more overall healing done than any player doing single target damage. AoE anything will always outperform single target anything. An Op is like a Druid healer in WOW. We blanket HoT's on people and our one AoE heal is a HoT as well. Neither will really save a player being focused (and they shouldn't) but they look great on charts since so much healing is going out all the time. A better comparison would be to somehow get a log of a healer single target healing a player while a single DPS attacks that player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lithorious Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) PVP is a team game. If a DPS faces a healer 1v1... Stop right there. As a healer myself, I am always near teammates who can back me up. Because... you know, that's what healers do. I don't know how in God's name you find yourself in the middle of nowhere in an isolated fight against a DPS because for a good healer, a 1v1 almost never happens. Stop complaining about a 1v1 scenario in what you confess is a team game. You're a healer. Your team should be defending you. If they aren't, they don't deserve a healer. Case closed. Edited January 7, 2012 by Qishari rude comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Maybe? but they didn't. Neither did WoW (thats why they invented mortal strike in the first place, and later gave it to multiple classes) Regardless, the system they did choose seems to be working fine. I like this post and am comfortable with the speculation that incoming healing debuffs in any game are a direct result of balancing healing vs damage taken in PvE and PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 its most likely because of expertise.at lvl 50 healing isnt such a gimpy pvp spec when you get less dmg reduction on everyone (geared for it) at the same time as more healing intensity. problem is anything bellow lvl 50 (maybe 40+ is already decent) will make healing near useless and rather frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 its most likely because of expertise. at lvl 50 healing isnt such a gimpy pvp spec when you get less dmg reduction on everyone (geared for it) at the same time as more healing intensity. problem is anything bellow lvl 50 (maybe 40+ is already decent) will make healing near useless and rather frustrating. That hasn't been my experience. I roll with two separate level 30 sages from my guild who commonly put up 200k+ in heals without complaint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 The entire point of my post was that this game is and will never be 1v1 based. It's a team game, and people need to understand that. If you increase the survivability of a healer as much as YOU want, then it will be imbalanced in a GROUP setting. I'm sorry, but you clearly are the joke here, and it's not my fault you don't realize how this game works. I don't even agree about your stalemate point either, as I have said earlier: a healer should NOT be able to tank a dps. LMAO please stop with your BS. Whatever your stand on Trauma please stop saying that a Healer should always be a victim of a single DPS. You say I'm being hypocritical when I talk about the Team game but here you are saying that it's not the case for a DPS. It's fine for them to Lone Wolf and kill a healer every time 1 v 1. LOL. A good PVP system should discourage 1 v 1 by making the outcome a stalemate so idiots who are fighting that way far from the objective are just hurting themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manigma Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) If you are beaten 1 v 1 as a healer there are only 2 possible reasons1. They have much better gear/higher level than you2. They are better than you Healers of equal level can dominate any other class 1 v 1. Edited January 7, 2012 by Manigma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarkahorus Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Having leveled a commando to 50 exclusively as healer in warzones, I have to say pvp healing feels unrewarding - playing a dps character right now I feel like i can add more to my team. Meaning, more dps, than healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cydel Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Do you understand the difference between AoE healing or damage and Single Target healing or damage? That's all your chart shows. That multiple healing targets equates to more overall healing done than any player doing single target damage. AoE anything will always outperform single target anything. An Op is like a Druid healer in WOW. We blanket HoT's on people and our one AoE heal is a HoT as well. Neither will really save a player being focused (and they shouldn't) but they look great on charts since so much healing is going out all the time. A better comparison would be to somehow get a log of a healer single target healing a player while a single DPS attacks that player. Cause DPS doesn't have AOE's? You think he never died cause he was AOE healing all the time? No one else was healing him and believe me the other team was trying their hardest to kill him. He kept me up the whole game too, I never died either. Let me underline the main point here again - HIS HEALS ARE OUTHEALING THE INCOMING DAMAGE. We never died, not once. The -30% Debuff obviously isn't a huge issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralFire Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Having leveled a commando to 50 exclusively as healer in warzones, I have to say pvp healing feels unrewarding - playing a dps character right now I feel like i can add more to my team. Meaning, more dps, than healing. Trust me, it's not. I'm a tank, I keep my healers alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zootzoot Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Stop right there. As a healer myself, I am always near teammates who can back me up. Because... you know, that's what healers do. I don't know how in God's name you find yourself in the middle of nowhere in an isolated fight against a DPS because for a good healer, a 1v1 almost never happens. Stop complaining about a 1v1 scenario in what you confess is a team game. You're a healer. Your team should be defending you. If they aren't, they don't deserve a healer. Case closed. This thread is about Trauma and the reasons pro or con for it's existence. The 1 v 1 issue was a response to someone. This thread is NOT about 1 v 1 PVP. Better? Edited January 7, 2012 by Qishari insults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganan Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 That hasn't been my experience. I roll with two separate level 30 sages from my guild who commonly put up 200k+ in heals without complaint. if you say so m8... dunno what to tell you... leveled 1 to 50, have another at 42 and a third at 38 and my experience is that pre40 healing is just pathetic and non expertise healing <<<<< expertise healing. but Im glad you are getting such better results... maybe you dont have the lag plague as I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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