Guide - How to Counter a Concealment Operative/Scoundrel

[Slickerpunk]

There is a LOT of outcry on the forums about the burst of concealment operatives and I am not arguing that ambush/acid blade needs retuning. Being a 50 Concealment Operative with 10% expertise myself, I thought I would give out some tips on how to live when you find yourself being attacked by one.

 

Please take into account that if you are not level 50 with at least equal or near equal expertise (total hp too), this will probably not go in your favor. If you're out-geared, you're dead anyway as it is with most classes.

 

A Concealment Operative's entire PvP burst potential centers around him getting the opening Hidden Strike (Ambush in WoW Terms) out of stealth. This typically can crit anywhere from 3.5-4.5k, depending on armor and expertise, as well as apply a 1500~ 6-second DoT while granting the Operative a buff to ignore 50% armor buff.

 

Your biggest problem, however , is the 3 second knockdown that this ability has on your character. While you lay down there nice and immobile, the operative unloads all of his melee abilities on you (with 50% ignore armor buff). Most of the time, this will leave characters with equal gear at around 20-40% hp, depending on crits.

 

So you see, if the Operative does not have those 3 seconds of free-casting (essentially) on you while you're knocked down, he is at a complete disadvantage.

 

TIPS to Fighting a Concealment Operative:

 

#1: Once you find yourself ambushed and face-planted from him, immediately pop your trinket (for lack of better word) and pop a defensive cooldown. The operative will be blowing all of his cooldowns (all his melee attacks, save Lacerate, have cooldowns) trying to kill u as fast as possible. You now have the immediate advantage, you have a full resolve bar and he just blew all his cooldowns whikle you had your defensive walls up.

 

#2: If he vanishes, spam an AoE abilty to knock him back out of stealth.

 

#3: If you are playing with friends, once the operative reveals himself, train him. Without Vanish up, he is extremely squishy and will die quickly.

 

#4: A Good Operative is a assassin that excels at 1 on 1 takedowns, if you play a solo ranged class that is typically far from help, expect to be targeted often. Snipers especially, you are our number one target.

 

#5: Keep him snared/dotted.

 

#6: BH/Troopers - Spec into the improved Sensor Scan. This DESTROYS operatives/assassins. Use it on cooldown if u smell one near by, don't use it reactively, use it preventively (if you are in the rafters or in the back doing what ranged people do, keep it up on top of you).

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Slickerpunk

[Maxxacre]

I have a better 10 step guide for countering Operative/Scoundrels:

 

1. Get jumped by an Operative/Scoundrel

2. Die 5 seconds later

3. Respawn

4. Repeat steps 1-3 for the duration of the warzone

5. Log on to the SWTOR forums and post about how OP the class is

 

6. Operative/Scoundrel gets nerfed

 

7. Get owned by a different class in a warzone

8. Get owned a few more times by that same class

9. Log on to the SWTOR forums and post about how OP the class is.

 

10. Rinse and repeat

[Slickerpunk]

I suppose 6500 damage with one ability (crit + dot) is a tad much.

[Glixx]

So this entire guide revolves around having a 2min. CC breaker cooldown available?

 

#1 If your CC breaker is down = Dead

 

#3 Bring friends and outnumber said solo Operative

 

#4 See #3

 

#5 If #1 Successful, then Dot/Snare and call for help, else Dead

 

#6 Use a 5s duration skill with a cooldown of 20s and hope that some Operative is stupid enough to walk through it.

 

 

I appreciate you trying to shed light on how an Operative works, but what you describe as a strategy is just stuff that will help against the bad players. A halfway decent player won't let themselves get caught by most this stuff.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Glixx

[Bovinity]

See, this is what gets me about the whole "Operatives are fine" stuff.

 

Your entire strat revolves around the assumptions that people are always going to have their 2 min CC break up, have 2-3 min defensive CD's up, have more people around than you have with you, that everyone has a free AE damage ability they can just spam to find the Operative that vanished, or that Operatives are going to just walk into the VERY obvious graphic of a stealth-breaker ability. =(

 

If Operative's burst opener was also on a 2-3 min CD, I could understand the logic. But to say that it's fine because everyone can just "Break the CC and pop defensive cooldowns" to counter a basic damage ability doesn't hold water.

 

I don't want to see the class nerfed into oblivion or anything, but having the opener tweaked and the damage moved to other abilities or something would be preferable.

 

Whoever thought it was a good idea to roll EVERY rogue opener (and a finisher!) onto one attack wasn't thinking straight that day. (It's Cheap shot, ambush, garrote and some Expose Armor thrown in for good measure, in case anyone wonders what I'm referring to)

[Ronaith]

TL;DR - If you have your PvP trinket on CD - you are dead. Nice, +rep

[dougan]

If you don't have a cc-break up and you aren't a tank, you're pretty boned unless someone helps you.

 

Team game. Competent teams are relatively unaffected by Ops/Scoundrels (except maybe once at the beginning of the WZ).

Edited January 7, 2012 by dougan

[Clispin]

Beating a scoundrel/operative

 

1. Bring 2-3 friends

[BobaFurz]

Seems like a lot of people never played other major mmorpgs if they dont assume a lot of the survival is depandant on cooldowns. In other mmorpgs you would be roflstomped if your cc breaker would be on cooldown, yes also from "rogues" but from other classes aswell.

 

Do you think if a stealth class has no cooldowns up, in this case his vanish, and he is caught without his openere he doesnt die aswell ? Some of you need to learn some basics which you will expirience in other mmorpgs too.

Edited January 7, 2012 by BobaFurz

[Reenolols]

If you survive my opener (which as I'm getting BM gear is becoming less frequent..), stun/slow or kb/slow is the only way you're going to have a chance. That's if you're kiting effectively and getting heals as I'm pelting you with probe + 800 rifle shots til I'm within 10m to root you. If I'm not outnumbered, you're not going to win, simple as that. It's just what the class is atm.. This is talking against other 10% expertise 50's that know their class well. Edited January 7, 2012 by Reenolols

[PyGoN]

Team game. Competent teams are relatively unaffected by Ops/Scoundrels (except maybe once at the beginning of the WZ).

 

Agree 100%. . . This is a new MMO people, and so far it seems that in PvP Warzones you are ALWAYS better off with one person by your side.

 

I don't understand where this out cry is coming from. I NEVER sit around alone in PvP warzones. Why? cause I don't even want to deal with getting ganked, or this, or that, or any other issue people cry about. Want to neutralize a stupid scoundrel? RUN AROUND WITH ONE OTHER PERSON! That is literaly all you have to do.

[Bovinity]

I don't understand where this out cry is coming from. I NEVER sit around alone in PvP warzones. Why? cause I don't even want to deal with getting ganked, or this, or that, or any other issue people cry about. Want to neutralize a stupid scoundrel? RUN AROUND WITH ONE OTHER PERSON! That is literaly all you have to do.

 

Again, this makes no sense. The only way to deal with an Operative is to always outnumber them? That's the very definition of unbalanced.

 

Besides, what happens when the Operative runs with someone else, too? Actually the funniest thing I've seen in a warzone so far is two Scoundrels together. Made a total mess out of any group that came near our node.

[Lokai]

I have a better 10 step guide for countering Operative/Scoundrels:

 

1. Get jumped by an Operative/Scoundrel

2. Die 5 seconds later

3. Respawn

4. Repeat steps 1-3 for the duration of the warzone

5. Log on to the SWTOR forums and post about how OP the class is

 

6. Operative/Scoundrel gets nerfed

 

7. Get owned by a different class in a warzone

8. Get owned a few more times by that same class

9. Log on to the SWTOR forums and post about how OP the class is.

 

10. Rinse and repeat

 

Except bioware doesnt give a damn about nerf posts already a big dev post during beta basically explained that bioware doesnt care if you think X class is OP they are only looking at metrics of the pvp side of the game and buffing and nerfing BASED on those metrics... so people can whine all they like it will do no good.

[PyGoN]

Again, this makes no sense. The only way to deal with an Operative is to always outnumber them? That's the very definition of unbalanced.

 

Heh, if that is the angle of rhetoric you wish to spin on this comment then be my guest.

 

The path of realisation I was attempting to lead you down was, in general, you are much better off with anyone, regardless of the class, by your side in any given situation associated with Warzone PvP in this game.

 

Unbalanced is the idea that this class can come out on top in just about any given situation. In my experience against scoundrels, when I am running with my guild, they never come out on top against us. positioning the thought, in my mind at least, that this class is not as groosly unbalanced as the forum heralders pose it to be.

 

In fact the only time I hear about this class being over powered is in a 1v1 situation. Luckily for me, I find myself in said, "1v1" situation rarely, perhaps 5% of total time played in Warzones.

 

So at this point I would propose, once again, the thought that perhaps the counter-weight that balances this classes abilities would be a wingman.

 

If you have no friends to play with I'm sorry for you, as the majority of players in a PUG might as well be a trained monkey smashing his fists against a keyboard.

Edited January 7, 2012 by PyGoN

[Slickerpunk]

Seems like a lot of people never played other major mmorpgs if they dont assume a lot of the survival is depandant on cooldowns. In other mmorpgs you would be roflstomped if your cc breaker would be on cooldown, yes also from "rogues" but from other classes aswell.

 

Do you think if a stealth class has no cooldowns up, in this case his vanish, and he is caught without his openere he doesnt die aswell ? Some of you need to learn some basics which you will expirience in other mmorpgs too.

 

Thank you. ALL pvp is largely CD based. If you trinket their amubsh, he must use HIS 3 minute cooldown to vanish to try and get the advantage again. Its all about the cooldowns.

[aranha]

Sole rule of balance in mmorpgs...

 

1v1 classes tend to perform better in groups than lesser 1v1 classes. If a class outperforms other classes in 1v1 situation they make better group fighters due to the fact that they can be independent when needed.

 

Thus unbalanced. They will get nerfed without a doubt as they are ruining the game experience for players.

 

UNLESS the game is overbalanced meaning you can never win in a 2v1 situation which does not apply in SWTOR.

Edited January 7, 2012 by aranha

[Gorto]

1. Cry for nerfs on the board they are brought to a level where you drop them faster than they drop you.

 

That is all

[Doxxs]

Heh, if that is the angle of rhetoric you wish to spin on this comment then be my guest.

 

The path of realisation I was attempting to lead you down was, in general, you are much better off with anyone, regardless of the class, by your side in any given situation associated with Warzone PvP in this game.

 

Unbalanced is the idea that this class can come out on top in just about any given situation. In my experience against scoundrels, when I am running with my guild, they never come out on top against us. positioning the thought, in my mind at least, that this class is not as groosly unbalanced as the forum heralders pose it to be.

 

In fact the only time I hear about this class being over powered is in a 1v1 situation. Luckily for me, I find myself in said, "1v1" situation rarely, perhaps 5% of total time played in Warzones.

 

So at this point I would propose, once again, the thought that perhaps the counter-weUight that balances this classes abilities would be a wingman.

 

If you have no friends to play with I'm sorry for you, as the majority of players in a PUG might as well be a trained monkey smashing his fists against a keyboard.

 

Spin? He is calling it correctly your suggestion (and most others)

is to outnumber an Op/scoundrel regardless of the manor that you attempt to spin it.

 

It isn't balanced it's also funny how you ignored the second part of his post "what happens when a 1v1 wrecking ball teams up?

It's funny you command people to team up yet op/scoundrel don't really have to to gain success.

 

One set of standards for you and another for everyone else. I see where you are at.

[rlhaas]

What do people want to happen to Ops/Scrappers? All their frontloaded damage nerfed? Okay, I'll buy that. So what are you gonna give them in return? Once their burst is over, they've got a vanish and that's about it. This is all they've got, people. It's like asking to take away a JK/SW Force Leap. That's one of their core abilities, how're they gonna close on somebody without it? I play a Bounty Hunter, and I hate rogues. The other day in Huttball, I was knocked down like the OP said by a 50 Op and unfortunately with another jerk Sorc throwing out CCs at me, I had already blown my trinket. It really was about five seconds and I was dead. So what? Had my trinket been up, I would've been able to CC out of it (and because of resolve) have a bunch of CC immunity, pop my shield and knocked him into the acid and start firing off missiles. It wasn't up, I go boom. Oh well. You can't take away the main function of ANY AC just because that AC happened to pwn you.

[Raggok]

So, basically my CC break has to be up and my defensive CDs have to be up... which is typically not the case when jumped in a warzone. Oh, and I should bring friends.

 

Not sure you are helping your case here.

[ccpl_fisher]

Sole rule of balance in mmorpgs...

 

1v1 classes tend to perform better in groups than lesser 1v1 classes. If a class outperforms other classes in 1v1 situation they make better group fighters due to the fact that they can be independent when needed.

 

Thus unbalanced. They will get nerfed without a doubt as they are ruining the game experience for players.

 

UNLESS the game is overbalanced meaning you can never win in a 2v1 situation which does not apply in SWTOR.

 

healers tend to be terrible in 1 vs 1 situations, you can't kill someone by simply not dieing. My tank spec powertech is pretty bad in solo PvP, I just die slower. a healer backing up two mercanaries roll people, if I am guarding the healer and spamming my abilities that lower damage by 20-30% on the oposing team, then it is even better.

Point is that certain classes don't do well in solo pvp, but excell at making there team much better.

It is the whole warrior vs soldier thing. warriors do verywell 1 vs 1, but 10 soldiers will roll 10 warriors almost every single time.

[BoneCruncher]

So, basically my CC break has to be up and my defensive CDs have to be up... which is typically not the case when jumped in a warzone. Oh, and I should bring friends.

 

Not sure you are helping your case here.

 

The only nerf i would like to see done to Operatives and scoundrels is to remove the faceplant. They may still hit me like a truck, but atleast i've got the chance to fight back.

 

Leave the damage alone, remove the stun element of their opener.

[PyGoN]

Sole rule of balance in mmorpgs...

 

1v1 classes tend to perform better in groups than lesser 1v1 classes. If a class outperforms other classes in 1v1 situation they make better group fighters due to the fact that they can be independent when needed.

 

I believe your "Sole Rule" to be fallacious in nature. You have narrowed the perspective in this given conversation to the individual. When I presented the thought that there is benefit to be gained from the group, rather than the individual.

 

The "rule" you presented I would consider a Fallacy of "False Dilemma". EG: "Two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more." (Engel, S. Morris (1994). Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language: The Language Trap).

 

The example you have provided in your "Sole Rule" Presents two statements, that when combined, are the only possible option hence the word "Sole". It should be clear to just about anyone that these are not the only possible options or results.

 

In summation; The rebutle you provided to my arguement holds no ground in a debatable nature per the "Fallacy of False Dilemma" as it is clearly not the only options present in this arguement.

Edited January 7, 2012 by PyGoN

[Slickerpunk]

Sole rule of balance in mmorpgs...

 

1v1 classes tend to perform better in groups than lesser 1v1 classes. If a class outperforms other classes in 1v1 situation they make better group fighters due to the fact that they can be independent when needed.

 

Thus unbalanced. They will get nerfed without a doubt as they are ruining the game experience for players.

 

UNLESS the game is overbalanced meaning you can never win in a 2v1 situation which does not apply in SWTOR.

 

Operatives will make horrid open team fighter. Take, for example, the marauder...he has what? 3 defensive cooldowns? the 20% reduced dmg one, 50% defense, and their own form of vanish, not to mention they have a pretty long-fight friendly mechanic (rage). Ops have a 3 second 100% evasion on a long cooldown and a vanish with a terrible and unforgiving resource mechanic.

[PyGoN]

It's funny you command people to team up yet op/scoundrel don't really have to to gain success.

 

I was in no way commanding anyone to do anything. Simply providing personal knowladge from experiences I have had with the Warzone PvP matches I have participated in.

 

Im sure you can plainly see that coming from the perspective of a Bodyguard, Team play is important to me as my DPS is slightly lessened by my ability to heal.