Solution to dual-spec requests?

[Lethality]

One of the biggest "discussions" right now surrounds the idea of dual-specs. Meaning, you can easily switch between two different skill trees within your chosen Advanced Class anywhere at any time.

 

You can of course already change your spec by visiting a Skill Mentor and paying some credits, but there are players who would like it to be much more convenient and cheaper so they can do it more often.

 

The Problem

 

 

 

One side of the debate thinks that the class-based nature of an RPG should be held relatively sacred. The choices you make to form your character (in combat and otherwise) should carry with you to define who and what your character is. Your spec should stay with you as much as possible.

 

 

 

Players on the other side of the kerfuffle argue that this is limiting, and they should be able to more conveniently and freely change their spec to handle whatever situation they are in, wherever they are. In this case, these players want to play more than one role on a regular basis.

 

 

 

So, we have one side that doesn't feel you should be able to respect at all, or that the current way is fine. The other side requests two or more save specs for convenient adaption.

 

 

The Solution?

 

 

 

I propose the idea of a "use-based" or "skill-based" construct, which basically means the the more you do something, the better you get at it. How does it apply to "specs"? Simple.

 

 

 

The longer you keep a spec without switching, the "better" you become at using it. It essentially makes you better that someone else with the same spec who just switched into it.

 

 

Obviously, the specific benefits granted couldn't be overpowering, but a small datacron-like stat boost every day might be just enough. And once you change specs, you need to start the 'bonus timer' all over again.

 

Would be curious to hear thoughts on this from both sides of the dual-spec discussion... what say you, disgruntled General Discussion?

Edited January 7, 2012 by Lethality

[Syas]

The Solution?

 

I propose the idea of a "use-based" or "skill-based" construct, which basically means the the more you do something, the better you get at it. How does it apply to "specs"? Simple.

 

The longer you keep a spec without switching, the "better" you become at using it. It essentially makes you better that someone else with the same spec who just switched into it.

 

First, the obligatory "they already have that, it is called Skill". In theory, a player who is trying to improve will play a spec better after a year of play than he did after a day. There is certainly a plateau there though.

 

My issue is this, 8 man op; your guild has 3 healers:

• You, who hit 50 two weeks ago but are ready to raid - Spec Time: 2 Weeks
  
• Combat Medic who has been CM specced since EA (let's assume this is "two years")
  
• Sawbones who has been specced Sawbones for 18 months.
  

 

You are taking two healers, which ones do you pick?

Edited January 6, 2012 by Syas

[kalexkhan]

First, the obligatory "they already have that, it is called Skill". In theory, a player who is trying to improve will play a spec better after a year of play than he did after a day. There is certainly a plateau there though.

 

My issue is this, 8 man op; your guild has 3 healers:

• You, who hit 50 two weeks ago but are ready to raid - Spec Time: 2 Weeks
  
• Combat Medic who has been CM specced since EA (let's assume this is "two years")
  
• Sawbones who has been specced Sawbones for 18 months.
  

 

You are taking two healers, which ones do you pick?

 

The 2 with the best gear.

[Galbatorrix]

Duel speccing will be need more when more flash points are introduced a long with a FP finding tool. People will never optimize their tanking and healing if they are stuck in that role only. But, if they can duel spec and have a DPS role too, they will. This obviously is a hige benefit to groups because you have tanks and healers that are fully committed to that talent tree when they're in those specs. Which makes them better at their role.

[Darthjazzyjeff]

Really simple solution:

 

Put dual speccing into the game. RPers dont have to use it if they dont want to ruin their character immersion.

[Syas]

The 2 with the best gear.

 

Incredibly short sighted. Throwing gear at encounters doesn't defeat them, throwing geared COMPETENT players does. The issue here is OP's suggestion basically gives people passive boosts that others cannot catch up to.

 

Read the thread before you respond bud.

[kalexkhan]

I'm against dual spec's entirely based on the pretense that I appreciate meaningful choices. I appreciate players committing to one spec over others, and if they want to do both they either pay the price at the respec NPC, or roll an alt to cover their bases.

 

Some people believe the story in this game is awesome, and that alone should compel you to want to level more than one toon to 50. This is true, even though I believe the story isn't good enough to make me want to do this boring level quest grind ever ever again and i'm only 30 right now.

 

Nevertheless SWTOR is not built to do anything but promote it anyway, its not that big of a deal to just spend the money and respec as it is, they may as well concede and just give everyone what they expect.

 

Dual spec is coming. Its sad but true.

[krisslanza]

The biggest argument for dual specs is that generally healing/tanking make poor leveling specs.

 

this isn't the case in ToR. Healing spec, tank spec, DPS spec... they all level just as efficiently as you have a constant party member in the form of your companion.

 

Now, if you choose to say "But then I'm not REALLY soloing!" and don't want to use the companion for some reason, or ever group with people, well... that's your own problem, not BioWare's.

[kalexkhan]

Incredibly short sighted. Throwing gear at encounters doesn't defeat them, throwing geared COMPETENT players does. The issue here is OP's suggestion basically gives people passive boosts that others cannot catch up to.

 

Read the thread before you respond bud.

 

I agree, i was being trite for the lolz.

 

But since we're on the topic, time invested alone does not indicate skill, so that also undermines your ability to take the limited info you gave anyhow and make the correct decision. I'll bite, and play along, and say you'd take the two with the most experience but you gotta at least give me some slack too.... Some people, are just better at games, and even if they haven't been doing it as long, might just be better than people that do.

Edited January 6, 2012 by kalexkhan

[HonktonkGigolo]

Incredibly short sighted. Throwing gear at encounters doesn't defeat them, throwing geared COMPETENT players does. The issue here is OP's suggestion basically gives people passive boosts that others cannot catch up to.

 

Read the thread before you respond bud.

 

So it's like EvE, right? A player that starts playing that game has no chance of catching up to a player who started well over a year ago. I, personally, don't like that system. It rewards longevity while scorning someone who may very well be a great player but is so far behind the curve that they won't be able to overcome the difference.

[Syylara]

Really simple solution:

 

Put dual speccing into the game. RPers dont have to use it if they dont want to ruin their character immersion.

 

What does being an RPer have to do with dual-spec?

 

Some RPers are for it, some are against it.

 

Most RPers I know tend to consider mechanics and even the pre-packaged Bioware story to be separate from their IC actions and personalities.

 

It is quite possible to have a person who plays a class that doesn't heal say their character is a trained medic, for instance.

[Syas]

I agree, i was being trite for the lolz.

 

But since we're on the topic, time invested alone does not indicate skill, so that also undermines your ability to take the limited info you gave anyhow and make the correct decision. I'll bite, and play along, and say you'd take the two with the most experience but you gotta at least give me some slack too.... Some people, are just better at games, and even if they haven't been doing it as long, might just be better than people that do.

 

Oh I agree - that said unless you are a bleeding edge content guild, most raids are balanced so that the average player in that class (who has the gear and the raiding mindset) are capable. Giving players passive boosts (which again, if they don't respec means the new guy in the guild NEVER catches up) creates a pretty major issue.

[Syas]

Really simple solution:

 

Put dual speccing into the game. RPers dont have to use it if they dont want to ruin their character immersion.

 

I don't want dual spec because to this day I blame it for the community on my WoW servers taking a significant dive.

[pjskull]

Isn't the solution to wait, since they announced that they will introduce it at some point in the near future...?

[HonktonkGigolo]

I don't want dual spec because to this day I blame it for the community on my WoW servers taking a significant dive.

 

Hold on. I was right alongside you until I saw this. I would really like to know your rationale behind this because I am genuinely curious as to how duel speccing fostered a poor community.

[SuperomegaOP]

reduce respec cost and/or put in talent tree dual spec

 

its fine to be a credit dump but costing significant amount of credits just to respec after 3-4 times is just not good

 

saying you shouldnt just respec on the fly is an outdated way of thinking of talent specializations, its 2012

 

 

be happy that bioware didnt decide to put in AC respec

 

should meet on middle ground for people who want and do not want respecs at all

[Syas]

Hold on. I was right alongside you until I saw this. I would really like to know your rationale behind this because I am genuinely curious as to how duel speccing fostered a poor community.

 

Dual speccing gave more options to a smaller number of players. Hence that smaller group of players could become more insular due to the new options opened to them.

 

I am not saying I hate it, there are pros to it, there are thing I like about it. Me personally though? I prefer single-spec; always have (started on MUDs then EQ for 6+ years) and honestly always will.

 

For me, I was "brought up" in this genre that a Tank was a Tank was a Tank, etc.

[Balashark]

As a healer I went through the pain and agony of leveling for months, I deserve props for that and really learned how to play my character. This way people will just roll DPS and switch over to heals at end game.

 

Forget that. Do the work and take pride in it. NO DUAL SPEC!

[DaxRendar]

If BioWare removed the 8 Characters Per Server limit, I'd have less issues if they decided to keep Dual Spec out of the game.

 

But as a player who wants one of each AC for each Faction on my main Server, in a game where I need to spec a certain way to be truly effective, I really don't see any valid or viable solution other than Dual Spec (or Multiple Spec).

 

I'm fine with either of two implementations of it

1) 2 Templates that you switch between while out of combat

2) Content-Specific Specs:

a) Solo/Story

b) PvP Warzones/Ilum

c) Flashpoints/Operations

 

A Healing Spec for PvP is different than one for Endgame Raiding, and both of those are different than one focused on Solo/Companion play. Content-Specific Specs would still make choices meaningful without forcing a player who enjoys two different aspects of play (PvP and Operations for example) to incur excessively exorbitant costs just to play and enjoy the game and might be a compromise for the "Meaningful Choices" camp.

 

Like I said though, I have no issue with "traditional" Dual Spec if that's how BW chooses to implement things.

[NermalDetonator]

As a healer I went through the pain and agony of leveling for months, I deserve props for that and really learned how to play my character. This way people will just roll DPS and switch over to heals at end game.

 

Forget that. Do the work and take pride in it. NO DUAL SPEC!

 

Umm, except they can already pay to swap. Dual spec is just requesitng the cost/annoyance be lowered, its not asking for soemthing not basically already in the game.

[Balashark]

Umm, except they can already pay to swap. Dual spec is just requesitng the cost/annoyance be lowered, its not asking for soemthing not basically already in the game.

 

So you can't just do it anytime you want the cost would be prohibitive. You would have to (dare I say) stop at some point and yes make up your mind and make an actual final decision god forbid.

[Lethality]

First, the obligatory "they already have that, it is called Skill". In theory, a player who is trying to improve will play a spec better after a year of play than he did after a day. There is certainly a plateau there though.

 

My issue is this, 8 man op; your guild has 3 healers:

• You, who hit 50 two weeks ago but are ready to raid - Spec Time: 2 Weeks
  
• Combat Medic who has been CM specced since EA (let's assume this is "two years")
  
• Sawbones who has been specced Sawbones for 18 months.
  

 

You are taking two healers, which ones do you pick?

 

I think that's still a call that would be made by the guild leader/raid leader as any other.

 

Again, this solutions gives the chronic, instant re-speccers all of the flexibility they need without traveling or maybe even cost. And the people who think you should stick with a spec can have their chance to benefit from doing that as well.

 

It's a win/win, in progressive competitive raiding though it's probably a little different. Each basic spec with no "time" on it would be of course as effective as it is now. Except there would be "bonuses" accumulating over time.

[Ahlin]

This is an MMO, not a console RPG. People shouldn't try to apply oldschool or console RPG ideology to it.

[Lethality]

Most of the responses haven't taken into consideration the solution I presented... let's not just let this turn into another "I want/don't want dual spec".

 

Instead, comment on the suggestion that there should be a cumulative bonus of some sort that builds up over time the longer you stay with the same spec. It doesn't make other players weaker, it makes you a bit stronger.

[karcyon]

I don't want dual spec because to this day I blame it for the community on my WoW servers taking a significant dive.

 

I thought the LFG tool was the reason for that?