When and how will Juggernauts get buffed?

[Erevan_Kindelar]

Posting from the perspective of a beta Marauder and playing Sith Sorc and BH in live, I have never played the Jugg but that was mainly because I got the impression from the AC description that it was a pure tank class designed to outlast its opponents rather than out-DPS them.

From that point of view (and granted that I do not know what anyone's playstyle is regarding grouping or solo), it is similar to pretty much any tank class in any game - it is better in a group than solo.

 

I am also pretty sure I saw a quote from one of the Bioware devs on the forums during beta, that they were going to wait and see what the in-game statistics show before deciding whether to buff or nerf (sorry, balance) any classes, so that as far as possible they could take the variance caused by player skill out of the equation.

[Chocodaddy]

Please, don't tease me. I cant wait for the fanbois to drop the class. The good players know how to utilize the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses of the class. If you're juggernaut for straight dps, you're probably not part of this group.

 

yah cause juggernaut was not the flag ship class for this game or anything. every video you see of the empire is darth malgus who by all rights is a juggernaut. dont gimme the ******** about strenghts and weaknesses. dont give a class the name juggernaut and then have it be the lowest hitting class in the game and/or pigeon hole it into being nothing but a tank because all other dps classes out perform you. yah sure you may have a few people do good when they are the only 50 in a warzone but honestly as it stands juggernaught damage is bottom of the barrel period.

[BobaFurz]

Seeing a video about a lvl 50 marauder dishing out 6.5k crits followed by a 2.5k crit or 15k AOE where everyone gets hit for 5-6k ...I wonder what the Juggernaut is capable off with pvp gear ?

 

What are your highest single crits so far and AOE attacks ?

[RadricTycho]

Removing the CD from Sundering Assault would make it our default rage generator and remove assault from our bars all together (less ability bloat). Make Improved Sundering Assault do this instead of stacking 2 sunder armors. Win/win for all Jug specs.

Its not a bad idea, but it also makes it a bit too WoW like. I like having to use more of my abilities due to that one being on CD, and then using it and getting 2 for the price of one. But I can see your point.

 

Change Backhand from 1 min to 12-15 seconds and drop the stun since it doesn't work on champion/boss level mobs anyway.

You just want more threat generation, there is no reason to change a CC ability like this for that purpose alone.

 

Crushing Blow should replace Vicious Strike as our rage dump (again, less ability bloat). Ie... no Cd but rage limited. Change Sweeping Fury to reflect this also.

I like this one.

 

Sweeping Strikes... increase the range and make its effective arc 270 degrees so it's a little easier to use. It's supposed to keep healers (not dps) from pulling agro but most pulls are so spread out it's nigh useless.

Hmm that hasn't been my experience. There are plenty of places it is useful for catching 3 or more, though maybe not all of the mobs. Personally I think this doesn't have to change.

 

Remove the conditions on Pommel Strike and Savage Kick. I don't even care about the CD's but having such a small window to use these abilities even when they are usable is so frustrating. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen Savage Kick even light up on my bar to say it was usable.

Yeah I agree, these are too tough to use and are too situational.

 

Make Ravage uninterpretable or something. I hate hitting it only to be knocked on my *** after the first hit goes off.

All classes seem to have this same issue with a channeled ability, I don't see this as a class problem.

 

Also, swap Unstoppable with Dreadnaught. It seems like every fight where I charge in I'm immediately choked, stunned, knocked on my *** or knocked 15 feet back and slowed (or all of the above) in the first 10 seconds.

Great suggestion.

[Darth_Sookie]

Please, go FRAPS even ONE fight where you kill them in under 10 seconds.

Heh i can do that very easy as a Rage juggernaut. Very easy with consumables and expertise stim/buff.

 

6k Smash, 3k forcescream plus the damage from force charge and force crush. Execute with saber throw.

 

Goes like this. Charge, Crush, force scream, smash, throw, dead.

[Kabaal]

Heh i can do that very easy as a Rage juggernaut. Very easy with consumables and expertise stim/buff.

 

6k Smash, 3k forcescream plus the damage from force charge and force crush. Execute with saber throw.

 

Goes like this. Charge, Crush, force scream, smash, throw, dead.

 

That's the consumables that are amazing and not really the classes own abilities, they are merely good (enough). Without consumables and against people in PvP gear we don't hit for nearly as hard. The way we all talk Rage up will eventually get it nerfed when it's the consumables that are OP and not us. If Bioware were to change anything about our damage in PvP i'd hope they have the sense to wait until the level 50 bracket that's on the test server gets implemented on live and gather data from both it and the <50 bracket before coming to any conclusions.

 

My biggest gripe with the juggernaught is during PvP, PvE i think the class is almost fine bar missing a few tools the other tanks have, but our defenses really annoy me in PvP. Our heavy armour counts for so little against certain classes that use damage types we can get a mere 10% resistance. Ever wondered why Operatives and other classes hit us for as much as they do everyone else? That's because our armor rating mitigation isn't counted against their damage types and to make things worse both our Defense and Shield stats only work against attacks that do weapon damage meaning almost every ability in the game is completely unaffected by them, our two main means of mitigation no less. This is one of the reasons Powertechs seem so much better tanks to us, they don't seem nearly as powerful when on an alt, just more annoying thanks to grapple

 

When playing as tank spec in PvP if our cooldowns are up we can be really hard to take down for 30 seconds every 3 minutes, but for those other 2.5 minutes we take almost the same damage as anyone else (more in some cases, looking at you spammable bubble), the only advantage we have then is the extra HP but non tanks have the option to gear for heavy HP also.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kabaal

[Dreadspectre]

Immortal is fine.

 

Rage is fine-ish but I think it relies too much on Smash gimmicks. Would like to see something spread out.

 

Vengeance is ok but if they want to make it a single target/bleed tree they need to fix those bleeds badly. I have a thread in here about it, last night my Force Scream bleed was ting for 13. That's not a typo. That's THIRTEEEN DAMAGE a tick. Fix bleeds/add synergy with the bleeds into our talents and Vengeance would be good to go.

 

And lastly, Warriors are probably the most gear dependant class in the game. You will suck until you get good gear, it sucks but really it's been that way for Warrior in almost every game.

[Sookster]

Remove the conditions on Pommel Strike and Savage Kick. I don't even care about the CD's but having such a small window to use these abilities even when they are usable is so frustrating. Heck, I don't think I've ever seen Savage Kick even light up on my bar to say it was usable.

 

Pommel I've been able to use, but savage kick... forget about it, it's not on my toolbar anymore. Same for me, I don't remember anytime it has lit up.

[filipesantana]

Pommel I've been able to use, but savage kick... forget about it, it's not on my toolbar anymore. Same for me, I don't remember anytime it has lit up.

 

dude...force charge+savage quick?!

 

 

aoe slow(cant recall name)+savage quick whenever u want!?!

 

 

 

 

cmon peeps..

[Blind]

dude...force charge+savage quick?!

 

 

aoe slow(cant recall name)+savage quick whenever u want!?!

 

 

 

 

cmon peeps..

 

Works only on stronger or weak mobs, loved savage kick when i first got it, though it was a awesome skill. went to pvp to try it out, couldnt figure out why it wont work till i read where it said only strong or below........

[DrMedRasen]

I would like to know which dmg meter or combat log ever confirmed that Juggs do low DPS? I do 8 man hard and nightmare mode operations as Jugg DD and have never seen any problem with my damage. I kill my council opponent as fast as every other DD in my group and we don't have big problems with enrage timers(except of nightmarde mode, but I think thats normal). The only big disadvantage of being Jugg is that you don't have CCs or special buffs, like the Marauders Bloothirst. If you really think that Juggs do low DPS you have probably not seen a Jugg in decent gear, cause the DPS scales awesome with gear, especially with lightsabers. Also I hit 10+ Medals in most warzones, if I've got enough time before the warzones ends. Currently I'm Vengeance specced and don't use Ravage, because you need to move alot during most bossfights.

[Calagari]

Hopefully they will consider something like this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=140673

[OrYcle]

.... and equally expertise geared juggernaut how it went

 

I deleted everything that was irrelevent to the bigger picture and focused your post on what is actuall happening in PVP... Expertise is killing pvp. Those that have it destroy those that dont, and due to the champ bag nerf a few weeks ago some of us extremely unlucky individuals have yet to pull out a champ piece of gear from one of thos damnable bags.

 

 

dude...force charge+savage quick?!

 

 

aoe slow(cant recall name)+savage quick whenever u want!?!

 

 

cmon peeps..

 

neither of those are useable in pvp, even though the sith assassin/shadow can use thier kick.

Edited January 13, 2012 by OrYcle

[DiabloSixSixSix]

GeorgZoeller Classes -> The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

Hi guys,

 

There are many different subjects discussed in this thread and I would like to take the opportunity to give you some information on the topics at hand.

 

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

 

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :

 

Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

 

Our attention to the class obviously won't stop here. Balancing MMOs is a never ending endeavor and we're in for the long haul. For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

 

In regards to PvE balance, any place in the game where our data shows significant issues with the balance tuning for one or more classes or specs are of course also being looked at.

 

For example, Jedi Knights will be pleased to hear that we are working on tuning the final mission in their class chain to provide a better, more fun and more reliably solvable challenge (see a post from another member of my team here). Currently a large percentage of players bring a friend to solve this mission, which, while social and often more fun, is not in line with our stated goal of allowing players to progress solo through their class arc if they desire to do so. We're also looking at some companions with a critical eye to improve their viability for certain role/companion combinations.

 

I would also like to give you some general understanding about approach to class balancing and how you can aid us with your feedback:

 

Now that we're out of the first few weeks of launch madness, you will see class and combat balance issues addressed with increased frequency. Larger scale gameplay changes and features are more likely to coincide with major content releases, but smaller scale changes and improvements can be expected to become part of our regular update schedule.

Statements that we hate a specific class or faction, or that we intentionally underbalance certain classes to make it less popular are conspiracy theory territory. We have nothing to gain from such an approach – we want players to pick the class and faction they want to play and have confidence that they are able to perform their chosen role in the game. Anything that comes in the way of that goal is considered a balance issue for us.

We make our balancing decisions based on a combination of internal and external testing and metrics. We don't make decisions based on who is the loudest on the forums. Community feedback is valuable in bringing issues to our attention and even to highlight possible solutions, which means that well written, constructive posts are the most effective way to communicate your wishes and feedback to us, rather than petitions and calls to nerf specific classes.

Please understand that balance issues during the leveling process are different than issues at level 50 and are handled in different ways. If you feel your class has issues during your journey to 50, especially communicate the level range and area of the game where you are experiencing issues to aid our investigations. Player versus Player situations in during the leveling process are not always balanced at every level (a mathematical impossibility), but we are always willing to investigate.

Just because we haven't mentioned the specific issue close to your heart in a post (such as the one above) doesn't mean we are unaware of it or that we don't want to address it. It would be impractical for us to comment on all investigations currently in the pipeline. That said, we definitely want to take a more open approach in regards to upcoming class changes.

 

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

-- Georg

 

dev tracker

[FaTaKLeeZ]

The only thing Juggernauts require is Force Kick & Pommel Strike PvP enabled, a slight 100-200 point buff on their base damage, threat added to their any time style & saber throw, and a little more survivability (damage mitigation)

 

. This class has been a blast from level 1 to 50 and I have had no trouble enjoying myself.

 

On a side note, one thing that irritates me about PvP is how much sustainability Republic has compared to Imperials. I went up against 3 commandos and 2 consulars in a void star match yesterday and DUMB doesn't begin to describe what transpired. Regardless of how many heals I interrupt, there is just no way to spike a target down with that much support. Then again, noobs breaking CC didn't help. Oh well, I'm sure BioWare has things under control.

 

Fatakleez - 50 Juggernaut - Valor Rank 50

 

PS: NERF COMMANDOS!

Edited January 13, 2012 by FaTaKLeeZ

[DrMedRasen]

PS: NERF COMMANDOS!

 

/signed

 

Commandos and Snipers are the most annoying enemies for Juggs so far. Y U can't charge Snipers? Sometimes you drop dead before even reaching them.

[dargor-]

Instead of ************ and trying to get others nerf'd, focus your efforts and getting your own class buffed.