commendation vendors ruin economy/crafting

[DarthNethus]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, (if they have, then I apologize) but why not simply make commendation gear come with no mods or only green mods?

 

If you were to make it so blue and purple mods were only available from their respective crafters, you would keep crafters VERY useful/viable/in-demand, maintain strong economy, and still give players a choice for looks.

 

You could buy crafted orange gear, of if you prefer the look of something from a commendation vendor, you can buy that...Or simply use commendation gear to equip your companions (something many players do already).

 

At that point, the only difference between comms gear and crafted gear would be appearance, which I find to be totally acceptable.

 

What an earlier poster said about rank 23 purple mods being available from vendors on Ilum is utterly ridiculous.

It makes crafted mods completely obsolete. Basically, the only mods anyone would buy from crafters would be interim mods to get them through to when they can buy the rank 23's.

 

^TERRIBLE for the game economy. If the system stays this way, eventually every player in the game will be a Biochemist.

[sskinzz]

If people could buy gear that was on par with commendation vendors for less a low enough price point, they'd do that instead of collecting commendations.

 

I assume the prices he meant also include mission prices to acquire blue/purple materials for the best items.

 

 

 

The player you're describing (the one who would buy your techblades) is an exception and not the rule.

 

I see exactly where you're coming from with this and it's sound logic, but upgrading companion gear is going to come 2nd to upgrading a player's own gear. Also, quest rewards do provide companion upgrades.

 

Meanwhile, players are saving for skills, speeders and the vital necessities.

 

Your logic definitely makes sense for players who are leveling alts and have cash to spend (and god willing, we'll see more of those sooner rather than later), but at this point in the game, the economy is extremely hazardous to crafters.

 

Maybe it's just my server, but my experiences have steered me away from crafting as anything except fun and something to help guildies.

 

crafters can not sell their gear at a price point that is below what spending commendations at the commendation vendor is ... its not possible. commendation vendors gear is free (commendations).

[Zennshi]

If people could buy gear that was on par with commendation vendors for less a low enough price point, they'd do that instead of collecting commendations.

 

I assume the prices he meant also include mission prices to acquire blue/purple materials for the best items.

 

 

 

The player you're describing (the one who would buy your techblades) is an exception and not the rule.

 

I see exactly where you're coming from with this and it's sound logic, but upgrading companion gear is going to come 2nd to upgrading a player's own gear. Also, quest rewards do provide companion upgrades.

 

Meanwhile, players are saving for skills, speeders and the vital necessities.

 

Your logic definitely makes sense for players who are leveling alts and have cash to spend (and god willing, we'll see more of those sooner rather than later), but at this point in the game, the economy is extremely hazardous to crafters.

 

Maybe it's just my server, but my experiences have steered me away from crafting as anything except fun and something to help guildies.

 

The problem is that commendation mods and gear, which are exactly the same and some are better than the mods and gear that is crafted, is too cheap to the point where any crafter might as well just hand the other person money for taking it off their hands.

[CaliJoe]

Perhaps it's a server community.Most often I see on GTN are green items that are low priced, blue/orange/purple exaggerated price. Yes I did buy a techblade for my companion (Vik/commando) for 10k because no vendors have them and his melee dps is incredibly weak. I think the majority on my PvE server are those that strickly go to vendors or buy green gear. *shrug* no one wants my gun barrels.

[Zennshi]

*sigh* My question to you Zennshi (and yes I did read through your post and I don't believe it answered this question) is this:

 

Why do you think BioWare does not want gold farmers in their game as inferred in Stephen Reid's response?

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19839-stephen-reid-clarifies-recent-banning-on-ilum

 

First, action was taken against a number of accounts for what's commonly known as 'gold farming' - or in our case, credit farming. These accounts were found to be exploiting the game in a variety of ways to maximize their credits in order to sell them to other players. Our Terms of Service team took action against these accounts and removed them permanently from the game.

 

Second, a smaller number of accounts were warned or temporarily suspended for exploiting loot containers on Ilum. To be completely clear, while players may choose to travel to Ilum earlier than the recommended level (40+) and may loot containers if they can get to them, in the cases of those customers that were warned or temporarily suspended, they were systematically and repeatedly looting containers in very high numbers resulting in the game economy becoming unbalanced.

 

None of these accounts were banned for their actions and no accounts have been banned for travelling to Ilum while still relatively low level. By comparison, the number of accounts that were warned or temporarily suspended was considerably lower than the number of accounts banned for 'credit farming'.

 

I don't have proof of BioWare's intention (as you wave around as your godly shield of protection), but I do know other prominent developers of other prominent games state Gold Farming has the potential to upset the currency balance on any one server if allowed to run unchecked.

 

Maybe you have another idea... but I think you know where this is leading.

 

You know what the best part about this is though?

 

 

That isn't the only avenue that gold farmers take.

 

At all.

 

=/...

[Velisael]

You know what the best part about this is though?

 

 

That isn't the only avenue that gold farmers take.

 

At all.

 

=/...

 

/agree

[sskinzz]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, (if they have, then I apologize) but why not simply make commendation gear come with no mods or only green mods?

 

If you were to make it so blue and purple mods were only available from their respective crafters, you would keep crafters VERY useful/viable/in-demand, maintain strong economy, and still give players a choice for looks.

 

You could buy crafted orange gear, of if you prefer the look of something from a commendation vendor, you can buy that...Or simply use commendation gear to equip your companions (something many players do already).

 

At that point, the only difference between comms gear and crafted gear would be appearance, which I find to be totally acceptable.

 

What an earlier poster said about rank 23 purple mods being available from vendors on Ilum is utterly ridiculous.

It makes crafted mods completely obsolete. Basically, the only mods anyone would buy from crafters would be interim mods to get them through to when they can buy the rank 23's.

 

^TERRIBLE for the game economy. If the system stays this way, eventually every player in the game will be a Biochemist.

 

why not just make commendation vendors as companion gear only?

 

if commendation vendors could still sell orange gear without the mods, then the crafters who make the chest, legs, boots etc would be getting screwed over.

[Darcmoon]

You know what the best part about this is though?

 

 

That isn't the only avenue that gold farmers take.

 

At all.

 

=/...

 

But that doesn't mean they should ignore avenue's such as this. Horray for BW trying to reduce the number of gold farmers. Every step they take to stop this is a good one in my book.

[Zennshi]

/agree

 

In fact, slicing was probably never looked at by gold farmers =/...

[L-RANDLE]

I guess I was getting a bit off topic though. Somehow we need crafted material stats to out pace vendor alt items or drops. That is my eyes is an easy patch and it does two things:

 

1. Increase the demand for crafted goods: thereby stimutating the market.

2. Redistributes some of the wealth making the economy more stable.

 

 

 

It is obvious that BW caught people exploiting the system, so they have some means of detection and control. They banned/suspended accounts for doing it. Hopefully the credits in those accounts were deleted. I see the "threat" being somewhat squashed at this point. Why not change slicing back, continually monitor "exploiters" and ban accordingly, and/or have a random credit lottery with the exploited credits?

 

 

Seems like that would win more souls on any side of any fence...

[bizznach]

all the synthweave orange gear i can make all looks the same (bland and simple) compared to the oranges i can buy from vendors.

am i missing something?

[Zennshi]

I guess I was getting a bit off topic though. Somehow we need crafted material stats to out pace vendor alt items or drops. That is my eyes is an easy patch and it does two things:

 

1. Increase the demand for crafted goods: thereby stimutating the market.

2. Redistributes some of the wealth making the economy more stable.

 

 

 

It is obvious that BW caught people exploiting the system, so they have some means of detection and control. They banned/suspended accounts for doing it. Hopefully the credits in those accounts were deleted. I see the "threat" being somewhat squashed at this point. Why not change slicing back, continually monitor "exploiters" and ban accordingly, and/or have a random credit lottery with the exploited credits?

 

 

Seems like that would win more souls on any side of any fence...

 

 

I've posed a few ideas on this http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1165256#post1165256

[Darcmoon]

It is obvious that BW caught people exploiting the system, so they have some means of detection and control. They banned/suspended accounts for doing it. Hopefully the credits in those accounts were deleted. I see the "threat" being somewhat squashed at this point. Why not change slicing back, continually monitor "exploiters" and ban accordingly, and/or have a random credit lottery with the exploited credits?

 

 

Seems like that would win more souls on any side of any fence...

 

Why un-nerf it and then leave something in that you know people will exploit when you can leave it as is (and I assume is at a point BW wants it) and not make extra work for people. I liken it to saying that the duping exploit should have been left in and just ban someone when they do it. I'd rather the people who would have to constantly monitor it be productive elsewhere.

[Velisael]

In fact, slicing was probably never looked at by gold farmers =/...

 

I wouldn't go that far... don't understimate a Chinese business person *ahem* i mean gold farmer lol... Lets say they are grinding mobs and circulating around high level boxes or playing the market, it still only take companions to do slicing for you. Pre-nerf slicing allowed them to add credits to their earnings without disrupting whatever else they normally do anyways (seeing that they have not other real use for their companion - those bastards!) ... pre-nerf slicing was a gold farmers dream

 

Only thing we should have been questioning is if every other player slicing to pay for things affects the gold farmers profit margins or demand...

 

I personally don't think so... it would just make credits cheaper ... enough that I wouldn't even have to think twice about buying... I could get a million credits for like 25 bucks as opposed to like 250,000 credits for 50 bucks >_<

 

Though I totally agree, that the slicing nerf in essence made the gold farmer's service more in-demand since they removed the DIY ability to make your own buck.

[Rhinoplat]

crafters can not sell their gear at a price point that is below what spending commendations at the commendation vendor is ... its not possible. commendation vendors gear is free (commendations).

 

Commendations are not free - most of them come from reward for quests which gives you a choice. So as a base price, the highest vendor trashed item in your choice is going to be the minimum price value put on 1 commendation.

 

Just because you got a commendation from a reward doesn't make it free - if you need a better story for why then google EvE and why the trit you mine yourself isn't free.

 

So if a you could sell a rifle for 1k credits then that commendation would have netted you 1k. Therefor a crafter would only need to sell you a armoring/mod/enhancement for 750 for it to be worth it to you - because you could sell the rifle for 1k, get the mod for 750 and have a net credit balance of 250.

[chton]

Who's AFKing and making a million credits?

 

I'm grinding Cybertech and trying to RE to every recipe possible and it is FAR from easy. I've been running around farming mats nonstop, and when I'm not doing that, I'm figuring out what materials I need to buy off the GTN to craft what I need to craft.

 

More to the point, if crafting is going to be a huge timesink like this, you should be able to make SOME money off of it at later levels. As it stands, crafting is worthless at lower levels.

 

Also, crafting is far harder than grinding some mobs for commendations and just buying the gear you need.

 

Umm people want to make millions while afk... i mean toiling away at their craft. Disguise it how you like, say you want to provide a service if that sounds better, it's just another way to make credits and advance without actually playing. If that's fun for you oh well then don't worry about the money right? But it always comes back to money.. if you're going broke crafting stop. First rule in getting out of a hole stop digging.

Sorry if I'm blunt, but that's my opinion and none of the talk here has changed it.

[Ghostmachine]

i did not play wow, and yes, im a very inexperienced mmo player.

 

2. as a crafter (which i enjoy very much), i want non-crafters to have to rely on my skills for the gear they need, and so i can make a profit and fund "my" progression through the game. i think crafters (not npc vendors) should be the main source of gear for pc's.

 

I'm a very experienced MMO player, having played games like Everquest and Warcraft for years. I can tell you that if the only path for gear progression was available through crafting it would be a horrible idea, and this is why:

 

1. Price Gouging

 

When players control the main source of needed items in an MMO they will exploit this to maximize their profits. Freshman Econ majors will try to tell you that a free market system will balance itself. Well guess what... when a single player has enough wealth to buy out their competitor's supply and resell it at a higher value, they will do so, because they profit from it.

 

Even if your competitors continue to gather resources and craft items, you can still use this tactic. It's pretty simple math, even if they have access to cheap materials, so do you, which means you're making them do all the work, while you profit.

 

I know, because I do this all the time in a certain fantasy based MMO. And yes, I'm aware this makes me more evil than Darth Sidious.

 

2. Forcing Players To Do Anything Is Stupid

 

This is pretty simple. If you are forced to level a specific crafting profession (crew skill) because it is the only way to reasonably obtain the gear needed to access content, then you have less choices which is also less fun. In the long run this will only serve to drive away players who are disenfranchised by the entire system. This is why the most popular MMOs have multiple paths for progression. Of course people still complain because no system is perfect and they're entitled brats but hey I'm not their parents.

 

So Skinnz I disagree, but don't misread the tone of my post, I'm not trying to call you out, you just haven't experienced how MMO economies work, there's far more to it than you can realize at this point, but given time you come to understand that MMOs are living entities in a manner of speaking. They grow, and evolve over time. SWTOR has just launched, and so far I'd say they've done a smashing job. It's only going to get better from here.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Ghostmachine

[Tipptoe]

I whole heartedly agree that orange gear aka blow all my commendations on upgrades for the same set of gear since lvl 12 ruins this game.

 

In fact, until I hit 50, I will probably be using the same 6 slots of gear for 38 lvls. I bought the whole set for about 2K creds from a vendor on Coruscant. Since then, i vendor everything, and just buy the mods I need from gear on the GTN via extract. All my commendations go towards gearing my companion, whose gear I also bought for practically next to nothing, either from the GTN, light side vendors, fleet vendor, pvp vendor, etc.

 

I've never played a P2P mmo that made acquiring gear SO easy. But it might also have a thing or two with items on the GTN selling for next to nothing. Buy item for 25K creds and be good for 2-3 lvls or spend 3-4 hours grinding for commendations. Not a hard decision at the moment.

 

Like I said, all my commendations go to my companion artifact gear. Something doesn't seem quite right. Either that or BW is planning the next tier of gear to be insanely difficult to get.

 

PvP gear is also stupid. We had our guildy lvl from 42 to 50 doing PvP. By the time he dinged 50, he had like 1000 merc and 1000 wz saved up and got pretty lucky and got his whole set. ***?

[sskinzz]

I'm a very experienced MMO player, having played games like Everquest and Warcraft for years. I can tell you that if the only path for gear progression was available through crafting it would be a horrible idea, and this is why:

 

1. Price Gouging

 

When players control the main source of needed items in an MMO they will exploit this to maximize their profits. Freshman Econ majors will try to tell you that a free market system will balance itself. Well guess what... when a single player has enough wealth to buy out their competitor's supply and resell it at a higher value, they will do so, because they profit from it.

 

Even if your competitors continue to gather resources and craft items, you can still use this tactic. It's pretty simple math, even if they have access to cheap materials, so do you, which means you're making them do all the work, while you profit.

 

I know, because I do this all the time in a certain fantasy based MMO. And yes, I'm aware this makes me more evil than Darth Sidious.

 

2. Forcing Players To Do Anything Is Stupid

 

This is pretty simple. If you are forced to level a specific crafting profession (crew skill) because it is the only way to reasonably obtain the gear needed to access content, then you have less choices which is also less fun. In the long run this will only serve to drive away players who are disenfranchised by the entire system. This is why the most popular MMOs have multiple paths for progression. Of course people still complain because no system is perfect and they're entitled brats but hey I'm not their parents.

 

So Skinnz I disagree, but don't misread the tone of my post, I'm not trying to call you out, you just haven't experienced how MMO economies work, there's far more to it than you can realize at this point, but given time you come to understand that MMOs are living entities in a manner of speaking. They grow, and evolve over time. SWTOR has just launched, and so far I'd say they've done a smashing job. It's only going to get better from here.

 

ghostmachine .... i respect your reply and am not misreading your tone.

 

and yes, i do admit that i am not an experienced mmo player.

 

the question i keep coming back to, is how are the crafters items ever going to ever have any real/relevant value, when people can get geared out with orange gear, and keep that gear always relevant by using commendations vendors for the duration of the game?

 

i believe that you are an experienced mmo player, and maybe you can shed some light to this noob on this question?

[Terwilliger]

You mean why do we need a unified system by which players can trade and create goods that doesn't involve trading three hens for two sexual favors and selling six eggs for a shirt to wear?

 

I will hand it to you, every day on these forums I think I've read the stupidest thing that has ever been said on the internet, and every day I'm wrong.

 

 

MMOs have an economies because inevitably, players will end up with stuff other players want, and since humanity did us a solid and proved how slow and inefficient the barter system is some millenia ago, we use currency.

 

Economies are more than just giving player A the the means to give an item to player B. That's a thing TOR has, and there are endless complaints.

 

My question is: why is requiring you to go though me to get the stuff you want such a good idea?

[supersonicks]

what spurred me to start this thread was what i have been reading from other posters and talkin to people in game, is that many people dont have a surplus of credits to spend because of how big a credit sink their respective crafting skill is and that they cant sell their crafted gear for profit because people simply are not buying their gear. the biggest reason their gear isnt being sold for a decent profit is because people can get equivelant gear/mods from commendation vendors.

 

So remove the vendors and gear? That's rather silly, don't you think? You're telling me that my game experience (dictated as well by the gear that i wear to be competent in both pvp and pve battles) should be dependent on how much credits I have and not how much I have done in the game (outside of crafting)? Hence, if I have 50K credits to spare for an epic lvl 15 leggings then I'm done. Why quest outside of your class quest? Gear is an additional motivation to complete quests (in addition to xp and credits). Now we just mindlessly quest for XP? With your proposal, credits and gear/commendations should be negligible rewards in quests as they will now be sourced from the GTN. Another thought, why don't we just openly invite more gold farmers in the game?

 

Instead of removing the commendation vendors, how about just creating a balance between the acquisition of credits and commendations. Increase the cost of commendation gear slightly in relation to credits instead of removing them. Or like some others have suggested, decrease the money sinks in game to increase the currency floating around for trade. Buff the crafted items slightly better than commendation gear and impose a level cap on crewskills. All these so that the option is still there for people who want to quest instead of day trade.

 

Let the game mature. Let BW do their job.

[TrevNYC]

my gripe is the "systems" that are in place .... its pretty much right there in black and white that these crafting skills arent going to be needed as people can just go to the npc commendation vendors to get all of their gear for free.

 

It's not clear they can get "all" their gear that way. They certainly can't while leveling. It's absolutely incorrect that they get it all for "free." Commendations aren't free. You earn them, just like you earn credits. They are a different currency, but they still are a currency.

 

Commendations are earned at a limited rate, to boot. This means that there is a *market* for players who want to upgrade in less than the time it takes to get enough commendations to buy all the gear they want. There might be plenty of people who would rather spend 100k credits and get a bunch of upgrades all at once rather than spend a week and a half grinding out 150 commendations (all numbers made up for illustration). The actual numbers don't matter right now, of course. The concept does.

 

The vendors serve a purpose. They allow the developers to have some consistency across servers for the rate at which people acquire gear. People who have more money will get things faster, but people who don't want to grind for credits can know that at the very least they can get x commendations in y time, and earn upgrades in z days. Other games attempt this through random drops.

 

But the same reason that a player-run economy appeals to players is the reason it can be a nightmare for developers. It's entirely out of the developers' control. One server might have people selling Advanced 23 mods for 30k each, while another has them at 300k each. Players on the second server might feel more compelled to grind for credits (or worse, go to credit farmers/thieves), or to make their own crafter alts (even if they aren't into crafting) because they don't want to pay what the current crafters are charging.

 

That last point also suggests something that people overlook. Early on in an MMO, many of the people who take up crafting take it up with the expectation that they will make things for themselves and be self sufficient. That's why there are so many "wut cerw skillz r best for a jeid nite" questions in general chat. Lots of people aren't looking at commendations as an alternative to buying from crafters -- they are looking at crafting things for themselves as alternatives to buying from other crafters.

[DarthNethus]

why not just make commendation vendors as companion gear only?

 

if commendation vendors could still sell orange gear without the mods, then the crafters who make the chest, legs, boots etc would be getting screwed over.

 

No they wouldn't, dude...What takes more time to get in this game? 20k credits or 12 commendations?

Derp?

 

I can make 20-50k credits in an hour of questing/PVP...Easily.

It'll take me a whole night of doing quests on a planet to get enough comms to buy a decent piece.

 

If crafted gear had mods and comms gear didn't, that would already be an incentive to get crafted gear...Unless you don't like the look of it, in which case (much like with LS/DS vendors) you can buy something that looks different at the cost of having to then buy mods for it separately.

 

TBQH, having comms vendors sell only companion gear would be stupid. Then what next? Can't buy LS/DS orange gear from vendors anymore because it's not fair to crafters? Can't buy PVP gear from vendors anymore because it's not fair to crafters? Let's not get ridiculous here...

 

However, giving players an incentive or reason to buy crafted gear over comms gear would be preferable.

If you payed attention to my post, you would have understood that.

 

If comms gear (orange) didn't come with mods (or only came with green mods) and you couldn't purchase blue or purple mods with comms (could only get them from crafters), it would be more convenient for players to buy crafted gear...Thus, giving crafters an advantage. But players who prefer the look of other gear could still have it, at the cost of having to buy mods.

 

I don't know how else to spell this out, so I'm just gonna assume that you misunderstood my original post and leave it at that.

Edited January 6, 2012 by DarthNethus

[Fhaze]

^^^^ EXACTLY

 

this was my point to begin with - npc vendors have replaced crafters and that really sux. feels like a single player rpg as far as the economy goes

 

While in a way, I agree with you. I no longer see a need for any other skill than Biochem. I do have to say, this is a case of learning the market. While most mods you can buy on the vendors, there are some you can not. Such as Might Mods. Now, you can go to one planet that sells level 13 and 15 mods, to pick up a level 13 might mod, but not 15. So, if you fill in the void on the GTN, you will make money.

 

There's more than just Might missing, such as some Cunning mods (you can get Patron, but theres another that has more Cunning than End on it). Just look for things like this. You can also sell the purple version of your mods. This will not appeal to everyone, but there is always a group of people that must have the "best" at any given time. These are the people you make your credits off of.

 

If you make armor, look for Schematics to make orange gear. If it looks good, you will get people that will buy it. They will even pay decently for it. I mean, hey, I can buy the really awesome chest and have it until I hit 50. Sure, it's 8-9k (or even 15 or so) and people will make that one time investment.

 

Not everything you make will have a market, but there are options. That said, I do wish crafting skills had more to offer.

[DarthNethus]

It's not clear they can get "all" their gear that way. They certainly can't while leveling. It's absolutely incorrect that they get it all for "free." Commendations aren't free. You earn them, just like you earn credits. They are a different currency, but they still are a currency.

 

Commendations are earned at a limited rate, to boot. This means that there is a *market* for players who want to upgrade in less than the time it takes to get enough commendations to buy all the gear they want. There might be plenty of people who would rather spend 100k credits and get a bunch of upgrades all at once rather than spend a week and a half grinding out 150 commendations (all numbers made up for illustration). The actual numbers don't matter right now, of course. The concept does.

 

The vendors serve a purpose. They allow the developers to have some consistency across servers for the rate at which people acquire gear. People who have more money will get things faster, but people who don't want to grind for credits can know that at the very least they can get x commendations in y time, and earn upgrades in z days. Other games attempt this through random drops.

 

But the same reason that a player-run economy appeals to players is the reason it can be a nightmare for developers. It's entirely out of the developers' control. One server might have people selling Advanced 23 mods for 30k each, while another has them at 300k each. Players on the second server might feel more compelled to grind for credits (or worse, go to credit farmers/thieves), or to make their own crafter alts (even if they aren't into crafting) because they don't want to pay what the current crafters are charging.

 

That last point also suggests something that people overlook. Early on in an MMO, many of the people who take up crafting take it up with the expectation that they will make things for themselves and be self sufficient. That's why there are so many "wut cerw skillz r best for a jeid nite" questions in general chat. Lots of people aren't looking at commendations as an alternative to buying from crafters -- they are looking at crafting things for themselves as alternatives to buying from other crafters.

 

Quoted your whole post because...

1.) I completely agree with you on most, if not all of it.

2.) I am lazy and didn't feel like chopping/snipping.

3.) Bump-worthy.

 

The part I highlighted is especially important, IMO.

My guild and I all chose our crew skills jointly to compliment each other.

We did this to save money. We're a small guild and we all craft for each other. I make all the lightsaber mods and such. Another guy makes everyone's armor mods. We have a biochem who makes us stims and medpacks. Another who's Armstech. A synthweaver, and an Armormech.

We keep each other upgraded/updated all the time and don't rely on GTN.

 

Glad someone pointed this out. Excellent point.