Sith Emperor vs Darth Sidious

[grandmthethird]

in the book revan

it states nobody knows what ritual the emperor uses to become immortal, but we do know whatever it was it wiped out all life on his home planet, and sucked the force from the air. also when the emperor speaks it sounds like voice of a billion ppl all talking at the same time. this would indicate that he sucked the very force out of every1 on the planet and is living off that. more evidence is given by the fact the considers revan to be very power and imprisoned him rather than killed him to feed off his power.

 

however at the end of that book he gives lord scourge immortality, and he does this in a different way. quite a painful way if i remember right. anyway that is twice in two different ways he has shown the power of immortality. where as sidious couldn't show vader how do it it one way.

 

Edited April 19, 2012 by grandmthethird

[BrandonSM]

Sidious got Plagues drunk. So incredibly drunk that plagues couldn't even stand. He wasn't more powerful, he was just smart enough to realize that "oh my god, my master is drunk, I can kill him!". I mean that is LITERALLY what happened. He almost said that word for word.

 

Sidious is powerful but he cant beat the emperor. The wormhole he created destroyed his own ship. The emperor is capable of invading people's thoughts and minds and completely dominating / controlling them light years away. He broke Revan twice and *** pwned him outright.

 

I mean don't get me wrong. I loved sidious more after reading the book but he is a man that takes advantage of a situation. He is a man that makes plans and broods. Could he defeat the emperor? Yes possibly after a long time of planning and scheming but in a striaght up fight no he could not.

 

Hmm, read up on the wormhole. It took Luke Skywalker and other jedi Members to reverse it. Luke Skywalker is the most powerful mortal in SW.

 

Sidious had created other Force Storms before and they took down fleets, the one he created that Luke reversed was large enough to destroy planets and fleets. It was the largest Storm he had ever created.

[Aximand]

in the book revan

it states nobody knows what ritual the emperor uses to become immortal, but we do know whatever it was it wiped out all life on his home planet, and sucked the force from the air. also when the emperor speaks it sounds like voice of a billion ppl all talking at the same time. this would indicate that he sucked the very force out of every1 on the planet and is living off that. more evidence is given by the fact the considers revan to be very power and imprisoned him rather than killed him to feed off his power.

 

however at the end of that book he gives lord scourge immortality, and he does this in a different way. quite a painful way if i remember right. anyway that is twice in two different ways he has shown the power of immortality. where as sidious couldn't show vader how do it it one way.

 

He also had to sacrifice over a hundred other Sith lords in order to do said life draining ritual. Sidious didn't need to use any ritual or have a hundred additional Sith lords in order to drain the life from the populous of Byss, he did it all on his own.

[grandmthethird]

He also had to sacrifice over a hundred other Sith lords in order to do said life draining ritual. Sidious didn't need to use any ritual or have a hundred additional Sith lords in order to drain the life from the populous of Byss, he did it all on his own.

 

chances are he sacrificed all them sith lords for the fun of it more than necessity. also sidious would find it hard to sacrifice hundreds of sith with the rule of 2. but if there were hundreds he would do if also just for the fun of it

[BrandonSM]

chances are he sacrificed all them sith lords for the fun of it more than necessity. also sidious would find it hard to sacrifice hundreds of sith with the rule of 2. but if there were hundreds he would do if also just for the fun of it

 

The book stated he needed the Sith Lords for the ritual.

[Aximand]

chances are he sacrificed all them sith lords for the fun of it more than necessity. also sidious would find it hard to sacrifice hundreds of sith with the rule of 2. but if there were hundreds he would do if also just for the fun of it

 

After Ragnos's death, Vitiate did not join in the struggle for succession, nor was he involved in the conflict between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, or the Great Hyperspace War. However, after the Sith Empire was defeated by the Republic and the Jedi, he emerged from his isolation to call a council of all the remaining Sith Lords, inviting them to his palace where they would participate in a ritual to unlock the power of the Dark Side, unleashing power beyond anything they had ever witnessed or imagined. Some refused to go, but many more came. They thought that one Sith Lord couldn't do anything against a hundred. He was considered the ruler of a single unimportant planet, who was a scholar rather than a warrior who fought any noteworthy battles, conquests, or victories beyond Nathema. Furthermore, the Sith Lords were afraid that the Jedi would wipe them all out, and they were desperate for anything they could use against them. Lord Vitiate used those fears, making public speeches with graphic warnings of what the Jedi would do, broadcasting and transmitting them throughout the entire Empire, persuading the Lords to set aside their suspicions of himself and each other to unite in a single cause.

 

At the same time, he had his scientists and historians secretly search for the location of the world of Dromund Kaas. The group Vitiate assigned to locate Dromund Kaas operated in secrecy, hidden day and night in a lab while they studied ancient star maps and astrogation charts, finally theorizing a hyperspace route to the world. When the Sith Lords arrived on Nathema, Lord Vitiate quickly brought them under control. He crushed their resistance and dominated their minds, turning them into slaves to his will and forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith magic ever attempted. Calling on the Dark Side, Vitiate consumed them, absorbing all their power and totally obliterating all traces of them. However, the Sith Lords weren't the only victims, the ritual also killed all life on Nathema; all the people, animals, plants; every living being touched by the Force, their life force consumed by Vitiate. Afterwards, Nathema ceased to be a world, but was a lifeless husk sucked dry of even the Force itself, while Vitiate became immortal. He ceased to be merely Lord Vitiate and became the Emperor.

 

Yea, he totally just used them for the hell of it. He definitely didn't use their power for his own means.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Aximand

[Nikato]

Why should SIdious have to fight Plagueis to the death in a fair confrontation when he could get the guy drunk and fry him in his sleep? Palpatine could have taken him, he just didn't want to put himself at any unnecessary risk. That's not weakness, that's cunning.

 

Palpatine mastered all Dark Side Force Powers and invented new ones at his leisure. He is the ultimate culmination of the Sith way, there are none that surpass him in either strength in the Force or his ability with using it. We honestly haven't seen any of Vitate's combat prowess in his physical body, we've only ever seen him fight through intermediaries, from the data that we have access to, Sidious would whip him like a redheaded step child.

 

No Palpatine Couldn't have taken him if Plagueis wasn't drunk / asleep. Plagueis cracked the ability to keep himself alive and did not share it with Palpatine. For years (their was a time when they had spent apart for many years) Plagueis had worked on his own body and he was in the best shape of his life. I am not saying that the way Palpatine did it wasn't cunning, no it was very crafting and smart, but I am saying that he couldn't have taken Plagueis normally.

 

That is my main issue here. People keep saying "well this guy is better then that guy!" then all "this" guy did was use a cheap trick to win. If I killed superman using a kryptonite bullet while superman was asleep, does that make me more powerful then him? Hell no.

 

Palpatine would eventually become more powerful then Plagueis but that would be later.

 

As far as how strong Palpatine actually is, im pretty sure that Luke surpassed him in power, as did Jacen (since Jacen could time walk). Palptine did not master all dark side powers since he never truly could grant himself immortality. He learned about essence transfer but he never learned the same ability that the emperor and plagueis learned.

 

I just believe that the Emperor was incredibly powerful beyond comparison. Palpatine is powerful because he is cunning and a very smart person, but the emperor has raw power. He could probably strip Palpatine of his ability to use the force.

[grandmthethird]

Yea, he totally just used them for the hell of it. He definitely didn't use their power for his own means.

 

hang on, all i'm saying is, if sidious could do it without all of the sith lords then its a good guess that the emperor would have that ability as well. just because he used them didn't mean he had too. but on another note spoiler tags would have been good there i think. not for me. i already read it, but in general

[Nikato]

He also had to sacrifice over a hundred other Sith lords in order to do said life draining ritual. Sidious didn't need to use any ritual or have a hundred additional Sith lords in order to drain the life from the populous of Byss, he did it all on his own.

 

The ritual that The Emperor used made him immortal and drained the very midichlorians from everything on the planet, even the rocks. SIdieious's life draining didn't do anywhere near that damage nor did it make him immortal.

[Aximand]

The ritual that The Emperor used made him immortal and drained the very midichlorians from everything on the planet, even the rocks. SIdieious's life draining didn't do anywhere near that damage nor did it make him immortal.

 

He didn't want it to, he was already immortal and had enough Clone bodies to last him indefinitely in his facility. But Byss was the new capital of his Empire and a huge base of military operations. Killing everything on the planet would have been extremely counter productive to his goals. In fact, the fact that he didn't kill everything on Byss is testament to his extreme control over the Force.

[Nikato]

He didn't want it to, he was already immortal and had enough Clone bodies to last him indefinitely in his facility. But Byss was the new capital of his Empire and a huge base of military operations. Killing everything on the planet would have been extremely counter productive to his goals. In fact, the fact that he didn't kill everything on Byss is testament to his extreme control over the Force.

 

Granted their is no real definition of what truly is "immortal", I still believe that the Emperor had true immortality and the ability to grant it to others, while Palpatine had Pseudo-immortality. Palpatine could essentially live forever as long as he had clone bodies and / or his passage of his life force wasn't disrupted mid transfer. If any of this was to happen though he would die. The Emperor on the other hand had no need for clone bodies as his body was unaffected by aging. He lived in one body for over 1,000 years. He could transfer his essence to other bodies if he wanted to but he didn't really need to.

 

Regardless both of them died so i guess they were not true immortals.

[Aximand]

Granted their is no real definition of what truly is "immortal", I still believe that the Emperor had true immortality and the ability to grant it to others, while Palpatine had Pseudo-immortality. Palpatine could essentially live forever as long as he had clone bodies and / or his passage of his life force wasn't disrupted mid transfer. If any of this was to happen though he would die. The Emperor on the other hand had no need for clone bodies as his body was unaffected by aging. He lived in one body for over 1,000 years. He could transfer his essence to other bodies if he wanted to but he didn't really need to.

 

Regardless both of them died so i guess they were not true immortals.

 

Definition of IMMORTALITY

 

: the quality or state of being immortal:

a : unending existence

 

In Mythology Immortality is more selectively defined as the inability to die of natural causes. Not to be confused with Invincibility which is the complete and utter inability to die.

 

There's more than one way to become immortal, Vitiate did so through the inability for his natural body to die, Sidious did so through the inability of his Spirit dieing naturally, and even then it was still extremely hard to kill. They were both immortal, they just had different means of achieving said immortality.

 

Sidious is, Canonically (and I'm not saying this because he's my favorite Sith, that title belongs to Marka Ragnos) the most powerful and skilled Sith in the history of the Star Wars Galaxy. That's indisputable, Canon fact. Jacen never followed the Sith code, so he doesn't really count and I don't believe he ever reached his full potential anyway. Its Canon that Sidious only killed Plagueis after he had nothing more to learn from his Master, the only thing people criticize him for is that he killed Plagueis in his sleep, which took more skill than people realize because he had to blunt Plagueis' ability to sense danger in the Force. The fact that Sidious was able to ambush and kill his master speaks greatly towards his skill in cloaking himself in the Force. The fact that he did this on Coruscant of all places, the home of the Jedi Order makes it even more impressive.

[Nikato]

Definition of IMMORTALITY

 

: the quality or state of being immortal:

a : unending existence

 

In Mythology Immortality is more selectively defined as the inability to die of natural causes. Not to be confused with Invincibility which is the complete and utter inability to die.

 

There's more than one way to become immortal, Vitiate did so through the inability for his natural body to die, Sidious did so through the inability of his Spirit dieing naturally, and even then it was still extremely hard to kill. They were both immortal, they just had different means of achieving said immortality.

 

Sidious is, Canonically (and I'm not saying this because he's my favorite Sith, that title belongs to Marka Ragnos) the most powerful and skilled Sith in the history of the Star Wars Galaxy. That's indisputable, Canon fact. Jacen never followed the Sith code, so he doesn't really count and I don't believe he ever reached his full potential anyway. Its Canon that Sidious only killed Plagueis after he had nothing more to learn from his Master, the only thing people criticize him for is that he killed Plagueis in his sleep, which took more skill than people realize because he had to blunt Plagueis' ability to sense danger in the Force. The fact that Sidious was able to ambush and kill his master speaks greatly towards his skill in cloaking himself in the Force. The fact that he did this on Coruscant of all places, the home of the Jedi Order makes it even more impressive.

 

Palpatine said that he considered himself to be the most powerful sith in history in episode 3. He's considered powerful by many but never actually really quoted as the most powerful. I think that is a big difference. Take Jacen for example. He never claims that he was the most powerful however in Jedi vs. Sith: Essential guide it is claimed that he was "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record."

 

A number of key jedi/sith have all been called the "most powerful ____" of their time, which I believe that sideious was (sorry i dont think darth vader was as strong as he was) but since the emperor is so new we don't really have many key feats for him. We do know he is insanely powerful and that just touching his mind was enough to overpower anyone. They are both powerful and have different feats to show such, but since they were not around at the same time I really don't think its easy to say that either of them was more powerful than the other.

 

Also, realize that in star wars their are different levels of canon and they change constantly due to new information.

 

Lastly as far as the immortality goes, I say their is no clear description of it because it changes depending on what "universe" you are referring to. In the star wars universe it is "the state of a biological being living indefinitely for a seemingly infinite or indeterminant amount of time."(taken from the wiki).

 

The emperor is the first sith to ever successfully gain immortality. Scourge gained immortality as well when granted it by the emperor. Darth Plagueis discovered immortality through midi-chlorian manipulation. It is not very clear though, if essence transfer is truly immortality or not since the biological being actually dies and his spirit is transferred and takes over a new biological being. Darth Andeddu creates essence transfer which was where he drained the life energy of others into himself to bring his body back from the brink of death. Palpatine transfered his spirit but, according to sources, its more or less just a way of "cheating death". It didn't actually make him immortal in the biological sense. Not only that but his clone bodies died very quickly after he entered them so he would have probably ran out anyways.

[Aximand]

Palpatine said that he considered himself to be the most powerful sith in history in episode 3. He's considered powerful by many but never actually really quoted as the most powerful. I think that is a big difference. Take Jacen for example. He never claims that he was the most powerful however in Jedi vs. Sith: Essential guide it is claimed that he was "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record."

 

A number of key jedi/sith have all been called the "most powerful ____" of their time, which I believe that sideious was (sorry i dont think darth vader was as strong as he was) but since the emperor is so new we don't really have many key feats for him. We do know he is insanely powerful and that just touching his mind was enough to overpower anyone. They are both powerful and have different feats to show such, but since they were not around at the same time I really don't think its easy to say that either of them was more powerful than the other.

 

Also, realize that in star wars their are different levels of canon and they change constantly due to new information.

 

Lastly as far as the immortality goes, I say their is no clear description of it because it changes depending on what "universe" you are referring to. In the star wars universe it is "the state of a biological being living indefinitely for a seemingly infinite or indeterminant amount of time."(taken from the wiki).

 

The emperor is the first sith to ever successfully gain immortality. Scourge gained immortality as well when granted it by the emperor. Darth Plagueis discovered immortality through midi-chlorian manipulation. It is not very clear though, if essence transfer is truly immortality or not since the biological being actually dies and his spirit is transferred and takes over a new biological being. Darth Andeddu creates essence transfer which was where he drained the life energy of others into himself to bring his body back from the brink of death. Palpatine transfered his spirit but, according to sources, its more or less just a way of "cheating death". It didn't actually make him immortal in the biological sense. Not only that but his clone bodies died very quickly after he entered them so he would have probably ran out anyways.

 

In the novelization of "Revenge of the Sith" it states that Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever, very explicit.

 

And yes, there are different levels of Canon, however Vitiate is C-Canon, and the movie novelizations are G-Canon. The G-Canon book of Revenge of the Sith supersedes anything BioWare or anyone else save George Lucas could ever state about Vitiate.

[Rayla_Felana]

Palpatine said that he considered himself to be the most powerful sith in history in episode 3. He's considered powerful by many but never actually really quoted as the most powerful. I think that is a big difference.

 

What?! There are MASSIVE amounts of EU sources that tell us he is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, that is without the numerous times we have had statements from the authors, Leland Chee and George Lucas himself stating that SIdious is the most powerful Sith lord of all time.

[Nikato]

What?! There are MASSIVE amounts of EU sources that tell us he is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, that is without the numerous times we have had statements from the authors, Leland Chee and George Lucas himself stating that SIdious is the most powerful Sith lord of all time.

 

Yes...and this is all old information compared with new information. The Dark Emperor / Emperor / Vita is a new character. George Lucas has stated before that he doesn't consider the EU when he thinks about Star Wars. His universe extends only as far as his own movies and cartoons. This is why it is almost stupid to really consider, for example, Bane vs Vader, or Satleen vs Luke, or any matchup that consists of characters outside of the movie's time span because GL considers and has pretty much stated that his characters = strongest ever.

 

If you want to consider using EU resources then you have to take into account that GL has stated that after ROTJ that is it. A quote from him in an interview with Total Film states:

 

"Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"

LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

So thats what we come down to. His canon always overrides any other canon and for him, TOR and the EU doesn't exist. He consideres it a different universe, but to start comparing characters from the EU, including character advancements, and then state "well GL said that this is that, so thats how it is" makes the debate pointless.

[Aximand]

Yes...and this is all old information compared with new information. The Dark Emperor / Emperor / Vita is a new character. George Lucas has stated before that he doesn't consider the EU when he thinks about Star Wars. His universe extends only as far as his own movies and cartoons. This is why it is almost stupid to really consider, for example, Bane vs Vader, or Satleen vs Luke, or any matchup that consists of characters outside of the movie's time span because GL considers and has pretty much stated that his characters = strongest ever.

 

If you want to consider using EU resources then you have to take into account that GL has stated that after ROTJ that is it. A quote from him in an interview with Total Film states:

 

"Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"

LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

 

So thats what we come down to. His canon always overrides any other canon and for him, TOR and the EU doesn't exist. He consideres it a different universe, but to start comparing characters from the EU, including character advancements, and then state "well GL said that this is that, so thats how it is" makes the debate pointless.

 

So by your logic Sidious wins by default because Vitiate doesn't exist.

[Nikato]

So by your logic Sidious wins by default because Vitiate doesn't exist.

 

If you decide to play the "well GL stated it" card because to him no one else but the few characters he created (he really only made a few himself) exist in the universe.

 

If you want to actually compare people then you need to be able to do so without using that card. That really should be obvious, and I am sure it is to you. The creator will always say that is how things are. GL has stated that he doesn't read the EU much at all outside of making sure that a name he wants to use isn't already created. Outside of that he doesn't let authors change certain things.

 

So pretty much this Emp vs Sid debate has come down to "well GL stated he is the most powerful sith so thats how it is". If that is the card you want to use then you can't debate anymore since while saying that he also considers the EU to not exist when he makes these statements.

[Rhyltran]

If you decide to play the "well GL stated it" card because to him no one else but the few characters he created (he really only made a few himself) exist in the universe.

 

If you want to actually compare people then you need to be able to do so without using that card. That really should be obvious, and I am sure it is to you. The creator will always say that is how things are. GL has stated that he doesn't read the EU much at all outside of making sure that a name he wants to use isn't already created. Outside of that he doesn't let authors change certain things.

 

So pretty much this Emp vs Sid debate has come down to "well GL stated he is the most powerful sith so thats how it is". If that is the card you want to use then you can't debate anymore since while saying that he also considers the EU to not exist when he makes these statements.

 

New only trumps old when new conflicts with the old. What new material states Vitiate is the most powerful Sith in history? What out of character source makes this claim? If none then the old sources calling Sidious the most powerful still apply as there's no direct contradiction. We do know, however, that Sidious has made some pretty impressive displays in regards to his force powers. Especially the force wormhole. We also know that Vitiate uses relics to increase his power whereas Sidious does not.

[Rayla_Felana]

New only trumps old when new conflicts with the old. What new material states Vitiate is the most powerful Sith in history? What out of character source makes this claim? If none then the old sources calling Sidious the most powerful still apply as there's no direct contradiction. We do know, however, that Sidious has made some pretty impressive displays in regards to his force powers. Especially the force wormhole. We also know that Vitiate uses relics to increase his power whereas Sidious does not.

 

This.

 

Personally I think Darth Kallig has shown FAR more impressive abilities throughout the Sith Inquisitor storyline than the ritual-aided abilities of Vitiate.

 

And nice to see you back on the forums Rhyltran.

[CorruptedPath]

Sidious IS the most powerful sith of all time. Read the books, Sidious became extremely powerful after the fall of the second death star, when he put his mind into his clone he made, he became more attuned to the force than what Bioware's emperor could ever reach.

 

However it is possible at a time Bioware's Emperor was almost as powerful, but Revan has weekened him when they were fighting each other in the MIND F*** BATTLES. Now Revan being as powerful as he is when he fought Bioware's Emperor and weekened him (as well as himself, vice versa) Revan was nowhere near the power of Sidious. Only Luke could kill Sidious and he had to go to the dark side to do it

[Aximand]

Sidious IS the most powerful sith of all time. Read the books, Sidious became extremely powerful after the fall of the second death star, when he put his mind into his clone he made, he became more attuned to the force than what Bioware's emperor could ever reach.

 

However it is possible at a time Bioware's Emperor was almost as powerful, but Revan has weekened him when they were fighting each other in the MIND F*** BATTLES. Now Revan being as powerful as he is when he fought Bioware's Emperor and weekened him (as well as himself, vice versa) Revan was nowhere near the power of Sidious. Only Luke could kill Sidious and he had to go to the dark side to do it

 

Revan didn't do a damn thing to the Emperor, the only reason he didn't crack (more than he actually did) in his three hundred year imprisonment was because Meetra Surik stayed as a Force Ghost to try and keep him sane. He was Vitiate's play thing.

[Spartanik]

Revan didn't do a damn thing to the Emperor, the only reason he didn't crack (more than he actually did) in his three hundred year imprisonment was because Meetra Surik stayed as a Force Ghost to try and keep him sane. He was Vitiate's play thing.

lol another anti Revan crusader... go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhuXofCQ-Fw&feature=related

This proves you wrong. As well the Revan Novel.

I realy wanna see you descridit more facts. As much i like the exile you guys are becoming ridiculous.

[Aximand]

lol another anti Revan crusader... go figure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhuXofCQ-Fw&feature=related

This proves you wrong. As well the Revan Novel.

I realy wanna see you descridit more facts. As much i like the exile you guys are becoming ridiculous.

 

So Mister "I want to commit Genocide against over 80% of the Empire's populous" Revan wasn't completely bat **** insane? Right, that's totally the reasoning of a rational mind.

[Spartanik]

So Mister "I want to commit Genocide against over 80% of the Empire's populous" Revan wasn't completely bat **** insane? Right, that's totally the reasoning of a rational mind.

Thats besides the point obviously it taken is toll im not arguing if revan is good or bad, his Morals were always between the light and dark, he had used an infinite army before ( star forge) , using it now for the wrong reasons even aiming at greater good isnt that suprising, credit that to his 300 years imprisoment is an easy way out, and not completely acurate.

However you were saying that revan didnt do a thing and it was the emperor play thing, obviously the facts states that isnt quite so. That was my point.