Selecting Need for your companion

[LogicalPremise]

This trainwreck of a thread is still continuing? Ugh.

 

Let's take this down a different path:

 

Excluse for a moment heroics. I could care less if you want to equip your companion from heroics.

 

What companion needs FP gear in order to do their job? If the answer is "I like the look of the orange armor set" then go solo it yourself or group with someone and say "hey, I'm looking for this set of orange armor for Mako, is it okay if we roll this if I take it?"

 

If someone did that I would have no problem.

 

But this thing about telling me I have no right to tell you how to loot, and yet I'm expected NOT to black-list you when you do that without discussing it, and how I'm retarded for not buying your completely illogical and specious argument that the companion is part of a character when you don't start the game with it, and you don't use it in end game, is utterly and totally goofy.

[pseaton]

if you need it for yourself press need, if you dont need and want to gear up your companion press greed (they are all BoP items so you cant sell them), otherwise just press X and pass. Pressing need for a companion while there is playing character who might need that item is so luxury and selfish

 

The word NEED is selfish. If anyone NEEDs anything then they are being selfish.

[Airinya]

The word NEED is selfish. If anyone NEEDs anything then they are being selfish.

 

Your arguments are so concrete and juvenile. I hope you're not on Helm of Garush.

[Eldren]

As has been evidenced here, there are two primary schools of thought that relate to the gear for companions argument. These arguments are foundational, and you're largely going to find proponents of one of these arguments sharing an opinion on the gear distribution issue.

 

1. Companions are extensions of our characters.

Those who hold this view are fine with acquiring upgrades for their companions from Flashpoints or Operations, as their non-group content output is affected by what they see as a functional extension of their actual PC.

 

2. Companions are not extensions of our characters.

Those who hold this view believe companions to be equivalent, to varying degrees, to pets for pet classes from other MMOs, or to NPCs, or to alts, or to guild members who didn't participate in the run. Nothing is going to convince them that it's appropriate to roll Need for gear for a companion if there's a player in the group who would roll Need on it for themselves. They subscribe to a common MMO trope that it's inappropriate to roll Need for anything other than an immediate upgrade for their primary character.

 

In general I personally agree with that trope, although I allow for situational exceptions. Nothing either side says is going to convince the other unless they can agree to shift their perception of a companion's "value" in relation to their primary character.

 

I personally hold to my companion being an extension of my character. As such, any upgrades I assign to that companion is, in effect, an upgrade "for me". Need as a loot choice is typically accepted solely for an upgrade "for the player". To someone who doesn't see a companion as an extension of the PC, nothing will convince them the companion has as much value as the PC.

 

With that in mind, I'm going to bow out of this particular conversation. My position is unassailable on the foundation I've noted I cleave to, my opposition's position is likewise unassailable on the foundation they hove to. Attempts to justify the opposition's view on my foundation fall apart, as does the antithesis.

 

As of the time of this post, I have 3 hours before I'm home from work and will be in front of my computer playing. I'll cleave to my own perspective, and my own morality on the issue, extending a courtesy of "asking" before hitting the button in situations where I feel it's warranted, and just choosing my action according to my own position in cases where I feel it's warranted.

 

And for both good and bad (and I'm sure there will be both, though my personal experiences have shown me more of the former than latter), I'll accept the consequences of my choices.

 

Have fun skewering each other.

[RycheMykola]

RycheMykola, I'm not sure if it was you who reported me for this comment, but I assure you, it was meant neither to be rude or disrespectful towards you, and was meant as a sincere comment. I apologize if it wasn't you and just an overzealous forum mod who didn't understand the post.

Thanks for the apology, I took it personally.

 

The mods here are strict! I called someone a panda bear lover once and got a warning. lol.

 

There's always social implications and enforcement in MMO's. Sure, its make believe land, but there are still morals, norms, and etiquette in the games.

 

Is it "ok" to roll need for a companion? Sure, there is no law against it. It is highly frowned upon though. If and when a server forum goes in, do you want to see your toons name as one of the threads for "do not group with - companion ninja!"? Sure, its no loss if me or my guild black list you, but when word gets around to many guilds, then it could be tougher getting into groups.

 

Gearing companions is amazingly easy. The green quest rewards and even green loot drops are more than sufficient to gear a companion. I even pass down my old orange gear to them. It is tough though keeping up with all the mods.

 

Simply ask first before needing for a companion! The RNG drop sucks! That person that needed it for his Toon, may have been trying forever to get or it may be a huge upgrade.

 

I highly believe in karma too. There will be that drop someone wanted for months which never dropped, only to be won for someones companion.

[GalenDurron]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

You are wrong. Players come first EVERY time.

 

However, if you are in a group situation and loot drops that you want for your companion and nobody else needs it then it is appropriate to ASK if you may select need for your companion. The fact of the matter is, we ALL have companions and everyone has at least one companion that shares the same type of gear. Companions are intended for soloing and as a secondary role, filling in the role of a player if you cannot find an actual person. Throughout your soloing and questing you will be able to find plenty of gear for your companions, do not take it from your fellow players unless they do not need it and everyone is ok with it. Play friendly and respectfully. Don't ninja (intentionally or not)

Edited January 6, 2012 by GalenDurron

[Taroen]

I say roll on whatever you want. You might need money for example the item can bring you. People just feel entitled these days. Used to be Id roll greed but since everyone hits need on everything thats what I do also. I have yet to find anyone who is upset over that they all roll need too.

 

This guy is the reason I never pug. It's completely classless to do this kind of thing.

 

My ignore list just can't get enough room for people like this.

[SingleCoilPickup]

You are wrong. Players come first EVERY time

 

Did you miss the class in school that explained the difference between fact and opinion?

 

An opinion can't be right or wrong. While it may differ from a large group or even a majority, you can't say someone is wrong just because his or her opinion differs from yours or anyone else's.

 

In this case, we all have to learn to understand that not everyone is going to agree with your philosophy on looting. Just get over it and group with other players. People who Need for companions are not wrong, they just don't play the game the way you do. Those of you who won't Need for companions are not wrong, you just don't play the game how I do.

 

Like others have said, the right thing to do - for both sides - is to clarify the group's looting rules before running the FP. If you're not in agreement, then find a new group.

[LogicalPremise]

This guy is the reason I never pug. It's completely classless to do this kind of thing.

 

My ignore list just can't get enough room for people like this.

 

But you also can meet cool people in PUG's. I pug often, when people ask for help, or just when no guildies are on. Yesterday met a guy in my neighborhood actually, ended up rolling over to his place for a beer.

 

All pugs are not evil.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I don't know if I agree with that, but...

 

 

This is true.

 

It's not always or even often the majority that determines the rules, however.

 

(In fact, it's really rarely the case...)

 

True. But I think many would agree that such a system is a necessary part of society. You have to have rules, and societies members must attempt to live within those rules. Otherwise ****, murder and theft would become the norm. The individual members of the society may differ on the definition of theft, but even those who disagree usually understand the need to "play by the rules" in order to live peacefully in that society.

 

If society says don't roll Need for companion gear, and you choose to do it anyway, you are choosing to suffer the consequences. Society didn't choose to punish you(whoever) specifically, you chose to be punished by engaging in an activity known to be outside the norm. You could have chosen differently. If you cannot live by societies rules, you must either suffer the consequences or find a different society to live in.

 

In this case there may be a large group that wants to roll Need for anything and everything. But that doesn't mean that the more sharing group shouldn't black list those players.

 

Personally, I agree that companions are an important part of my character, both in leveling and in end game daily quests. However I also recognize that those companions do not contribute to the success of a group mission if they are not used. Also, they do not contribute as much as an actual player, and still don't have an equal right to loot as another player.

 

Also, if you allow players to roll need for their companions even when another player needs it for their actual character, you may as well acknowledge that players can roll Need for anything even if they are just going to vendor it. You can't have it both ways. Players will be able to say "I'm going to use it for a companion" even if they intend to just sell it. You don't know what their companions are using or even which companion they intend to use. They might say "I use all of them depending on the situation so they all need gear". They might even say "my companion uses heavy armor, but I rolled Need on that medium armor, because it has stats my companion needs. I can just remove the mods and put them into my companions gear".

 

Therefore, rolling Need only on items that are beneficial to the class being played is easy to verify in a group. A commando doesn't really need a rifle for example. If the commando says "I can equip a rifle so I'm going to roll Need even though I'm equipped with an assault cannon and I have abilities that require an assault cannon and no abilities requiring rifles." then I would consider that unacceptable. The commando isn't likely to use it, even if it's equipable, it's not really an item for their class.

 

Once you let people roll Need for companions you don't know if they are lying to get more vendor trash or not. The side that limits Need rolls to just class items has a better chance of avoiding true ninjas who just want to take as much loot as they can.

 

I'd rather run with the group that has a way of reducing the amount of ninjas, than run with the group that will basically encourage ninja behavior. If ninjas can't get loot from the "player Need" groups, they will run with the "Companion Need" group. Thus, players that want to avoid ninjas are effectively encouraged to run with the "Player Need" groups.

 

If a player asked ahead of time to be able to roll Need for their companion, I wouldn't black list them, even if it was gear that I wanted. I would say that I didn't want them rolling against me. If they said that was fine and didn't roll Need while grouped with me, great, I'll group with them anytime. If they say they're going to do it anyway, I'll just leave the group, but not black list them. That way it's possible that I'll group with them again and by then maybe they will no longer wish to roll Need for companions on items other players need for their characters. But if a player rolls Need for companion gear without asking, I'm just not going to group with them again and will add them to /ignore.

 

If I end up with such a large number of people on my ignore list that I can't get groups, I just won't group. I'd rather not group at all than be forced to group with people I consider selfish and immature. So far I've run several dozed Flash Points and only had to ignore two people for this kind of behavior.

[Taroen]

But you also can meet cool people in PUG's. I pug often, when people ask for help, or just when no guildies are on. Yesterday met a guy in my neighborhood actually, ended up rolling over to his place for a beer.

 

All pugs are not evil.

 

Point taken, and I have met some nice people in pugs... But generally the experience is not a good one, and I don't do it anymore. I have a good guild that does plenty enough runs for me to have my hands full. I don't mind helping people when they ask for it, even if I have no idea who they are, as long as they actually need help as opposed to just wanting someone to carry them through content they're not ready for.

 

I'm much more likely to run into someone who needs on every drop in a pug, and that guy fit the bill.

[OdonKnight]

But that's my point: there is no "right" or "wrong" way to handle the situation, there is only programmatically possible or impossible. Everything else is a social construct.

 

The entire concept of "need" and "greed" is simply a shortcut for the players; it's a tool the developers added that can be used at your own discretion to indicate level of interest in a loot drop. It's not required. You can choose to assign meaning to it, or ignore it altogether. There is nothing stopping you from rolling need on every item - that is true. And if everyone in the party agrees that they will all roll need on every item, that is perfectly socially acceptable as well. In this case, the "wrong" answer is also "right" because the implied social contract between group members was amended.

 

It's interesting on many levels, but I think it's a particularly confusing issue because of the crossover from WoW (which is apparently a vast majority of the TOR playerbase). In WoW, the "need before greed" concept is enforced more strictly - it is impossible, for example, to roll need on an item if you cannot use it. In this case the program has created a more detailed set of rules which more closely fit what some people believe is socially acceptable. TOR does not do this, and thus some are confused when the rules are not applied in the way they have come to believe they should be. The water is additionally muddied when you add the fact that people have companions which typically require loot that is different than the character they are currently playing. A new set of complex social rules is being developed, but the programmatic rules are actually simpler.

 

 

In any case, I will repeat my earlier sentiment that the above poster seems to have ignored: when in doubt, check with your group. Several people have advocated that in this thread and it's the only advice that is actually useful in every situation.

 

No and I shall try to explain it terms that are understood easily.

Need and greed have definitions. Programmers understand their definitions. Programs stick with not defining them themselves as a company as it would require enforcing thus more manpower as it would then be against EULA and grey territory. They hope people get along and coexist.

 

By your definition that "anything the game code allows is ok" means BW violated their own rules in punishing/banning those that have exploited means at getting money/etc that have appeared in recent days/weeks.

 

I so wish every ninja here could be traced back to user/server so we could compile a list of people to avoid as the cowards certainly never tell their groups that their definition of NEED is whatever they deem it to be.

[PolishTank]

As has been evidenced here, there are two primary schools of thought that relate to the gear for companions argument. These arguments are foundational, and you're largely going to find proponents of one of these arguments sharing an opinion on the gear distribution issue.

 

1. Companions are extensions of our characters.

Those who hold this view are fine with acquiring upgrades for their companions from Flashpoints or Operations, as their non-group content output is affected by what they see as a functional extension of their actual PC.

 

2. Companions are not extensions of our characters.

Those who hold this view believe companions to be equivalent, to varying degrees, to pets for pet classes from other MMOs, or to NPCs, or to alts, or to guild members who didn't participate in the run. Nothing is going to convince them that it's appropriate to roll Need for gear for a companion if there's a player in the group who would roll Need on it for themselves. They subscribe to a common MMO trope that it's inappropriate to roll Need for anything other than an immediate upgrade for their primary character.

 

Wrong. There are two groups, people who are thieves and people who aren't. There are people who choose to do the right thing, and people who don't. There are people who try and fail to justify their unethical behavior with "extension of themselves" or "my mommy didn't love me" BS, and people who don't.

 

Seriously, what is wrong with you? What can you not understand about splitting the rewards with only the people who actually participate? If your companion didn't help complete the quest, didn't help take down the boss, then s/he doesn't deserve the opportunity to roll for items over someone that did help complete the quest or take down the boss.

 

Seriously dude, get it through your skull already.

Edited January 6, 2012 by PolishTank

[Xenich]

Sorry but your argument is flawed, people group for a CHANCE to obtain gear that they can use. whether its for cosmetic reasons or functionality reasons or god forbid, their companions. People DO roll for other reasons than enhancing thier group play abilities.

just be happy with your equal 25% chance that you can get a nice item and move on.

 

I didn't say people did groups for that specific reason (just in the context of this argument); however the flow of this discussion has been centered around the fact that one person in the group that is a player "needs" the item for "themselves" and another is simply trying to increase their solo play on their companion. That has been the premise of the argument here and the logic of my argument is infallible. One can not contest claiming their companion who is not present in the group doing the group dungeon has equal position of that of another player. That is the argument here and there is no escaping the correctness of the position.

 

 

I'm from the Oceanic region and sometimes finding a full group can be a problem because not too many players in my time zone since the game hasn't been released here yet, My companion has often filled the last spot and by keeping him top notch i add to my ability to contribute to a group.

 

This however changes the aspect of the argument. If you will notice in my past posts, I asked if the person was using their companion within the group. If they are, then that companion is considered "equal" to the group members because they are a contributing position to the group. Likely you would not run into an issue with people over this unless it was a player claiming they wanted it for an off-spec and if that is the case, it is no different then them wanting to loot for things that they are not fulfilling in the group. If a companion is present and doing the job, that is a reasonable argument. That however has not been the argument made by some here. They argue for solo viability of a companion that offers nothing to the group. In that case, someone might as well claim they have a dying sister who plays the game who would have their wishes fulfilled if you could take the item and give it to her. It is absurd in its position and is founded on no logical support.

[daemian]

Thanks for the apology, I took it personally.

 

The mods here are strict! I called someone a panda bear lover once and got a warning. lol.

 

There's always social implications and enforcement in MMO's. Sure, its make believe land, but there are still morals, norms, and etiquette in the games.

 

Is it "ok" to roll need for a companion? Sure, there is no law against it. It is highly frowned upon though. If and when a server forum goes in, do you want to see your toons name as one of the threads for "do not group with - companion ninja!"? Sure, its no loss if me or my guild black list you, but when word gets around to many guilds, then it could be tougher getting into groups.

 

Gearing companions is amazingly easy. The green quest rewards and even green loot drops are more than sufficient to gear a companion. I even pass down my old orange gear to them. It is tough though keeping up with all the mods.

 

Simply ask first before needing for a companion! The RNG drop sucks! That person that needed it for his Toon, may have been trying forever to get or it may be a huge upgrade.

 

I highly believe in karma too. There will be that drop someone wanted for months which never dropped, only to be won for someones companion.

 

Well, when you put it that way... no, I probably wouldn't want to see my name plastered on a server "Do Not Group With ...." list.

 

But I'm not sure I agree that's the best course of action either. The reason being is it comes down to play styles. I could see blacklisting someone for truly despicable behaviour, like if they agree not to do something or have been warned and yet they keep doing it anyway.

 

But to my earlier point, if someone goes around blacklisting anyone and everyone who doesn't play by their own personal rules, then they'll get a reputation as well. I've seen this happen on other forums when people have lost all credibility (and friends) by repeatedly calling out others for petty issues. Who wants to group with people who take the game that seriously all the time? Not me.

 

Personally, I'm just not someone who cares either way if my groupmates win the roll or not, there's never been anything in any game I've wanted badly enough for it to really bug me. To me, it's just part of the game. I know some of you find that hard to believe.

 

I'm also not overly concerned because I know how sensitive some players can be about certain issues and I'll make sure I either know who I'm grouping with or clarify the rules beforehand. And I continue to think that's the easiest way to handle it.

[Gehoornde]

I'm a heavy RP player, so when I play a Dark Side character I need on everything I can, when I'm playing Light Side I don't. It's simple as that.

 

Either way I couldn't care less if people like it or not. This is a game, it doesn't have any influence on my real life stuff.

[daemian]

I'm a heavy RP player, so when I play a Dark Side character I need on everything I can, when I'm playing Light Side I don't. It's simple as that.

 

That's a new one. Not sure how I feel about it.

[Seksi]

Sucks that Bioware gave us the requirement to gear up two toons at a time, yes you should be able to roll need because you do IN FACT need those items to keep your companion geared.

[zejaie]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

If you are running a flash point with other people, it is only polite to ask before you need for a companion.

[Traejun]

I won't roll need for companions. However, I always try to wait until everyone else rolls to see if someone else will roll need for companion or BoE gear. If so, I need out of spite.

[Kaldurenik]

Its considered rude, just as taking a chest/quest item/object/mob when someone is clearing his way there.

 

I would not play with you again. If you are unsure ask what the other people in the group think.

[RycheMykola]

Well, when you put it that way... no, I probably wouldn't want to see my name plastered on a server "Do Not Group With ...." list.

 

But I'm not sure I agree that's the best course of action either. The reason being is it comes down to play styles. I could see blacklisting someone for truly despicable behaviour, like if they agree not to do something or have been warned and yet they keep doing it anyway.

 

But to my earlier point, if someone goes around blacklisting anyone and everyone who doesn't play by their own personal rules, then they'll get a reputation as well. I've seen this happen on other forums when people have lost all credibility (and friends) by repeatedly calling out others for petty issues. Who wants to group with people who take the game that seriously all the time? Not me.

 

Personally, I'm just not someone who cares either way if my groupmates win the roll or not, there's never been anything in any game I've wanted badly enough for it to really bug me. To me, it's just part of the game. I know some of you find that hard to believe.

 

I'm also not overly concerned because I know how sensitive some players can be about certain issues and I'll make sure I either know who I'm grouping with or clarify the rules beforehand. And I continue to think that's the easiest way to handle it.

I think we can both agree, just ask first if you're going to need roll for companion. Most people are pretty cool and probably wouldn't care as long as you asked first.

[Pinguaq]

Thread was TLDR. I'm sure it has already been said, but if we are only "allowed" to NEED for ourselves, or if there are other strict rules along this, then dont give people the option. The computer can decide who needs what.

 

Give me the option and I'll NEED want I, yes I, think I need. I'm sure many people believe they should get to decide who get's what for each drop because they know best and the rest of us are idiots.

 

FWIW - I only need what I actually need, and not always then. If there are multiple light armor wearers in the group, I'll often wait to see if they need or greed it. If they greed it, so will I, even if I need it.

 

However, that's me and the point is I have a choice. If one time I really want a heaver piece for my companion, I may NEED it and will sleep great after.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Pinguaq

[OdonKnight]

Pfft... you gave the worst response when I said to need on everything because you can sell it and make a profit... that's ninja looting in it's purest form w/out the specific desire to grief.

 

It's not an upgrade for you. It's an upgrade for your companion. Your companion is farther removed from your main than a Hunter's Pet is in WoW as your companion didn't even help with said flashpoint. If you're going to argue that your companion helps you level, then please reply to how that is different from taking an item:

1) and giving it to a guildie over someone that was in the FP group

2) that was designed for a role you weren't playin during the FP (i.e. taking a healing item while you were dps'ing)

3) and selling it for credits so that you can buy better gear for yourself.

 

Yeah... all 3 of those 3 apply to your statement you made earlier... in fact you were responding to #3 specifically:

 

How dare you impose your morals upon their sense of entitlement. <sarcasm alert>

 

to those who disagree: If someone asked you if you needed a ride or a lift or some help and you said yes would the average intelligent human being then be ok with your sense of entitlement to pass on said offer to your significant other (who helps you make it through life) because you physically can do so? When the offeror finds out YOU didn't need it but they did but you really need it because they are "a part of your life?

Edited January 6, 2012 by OdonKnight

[profaneascension]

I'm a heavy RP player, so when I play a Dark Side character I need on everything I can, when I'm playing Light Side I don't. It's simple as that.

 

Not saying this has been your experience, but I can't help but wonder out loud how fast someone who did that would wear out their welcome in a group. I'm an avid RPer myself and I feel rather fortunate to have the mental capacity to know where to draw the line between RP and non-RP situations.