Why are so many people saying this game is bad?

[SirRobin]

Waterworld online?

 

I'm still surprised that a bigger stink hasn't been created by the whole "almost two hundred million" bit. That's a hell of a lot of money and not a whole hell of a lot of game. EA gave Mythic almost a year before heads started rolling and WAR cost a hell of a lot less to make than TOR. So I'm quite curious about who the first victims will be. Can't be Gordon since he may have seen the "writing on the wall" and bailed before launch.

 

That leaves Hickman and Vogel. I would suspect Hickman but since he weathered Mythic's purge and Vogel has some SWG on him. That might make it easier to paint a target on Rich. Don't think it will be one of the Doctors because BioWare does have other lucrative lines. Jacob was almost a given because Mythic didn't have anything else to fall back on. BioWare has Mass Effect, Dragon Age, etc...

 

Of course once the first head is chopped it won't be long before the real house cleaning begins. As the others in the fancy chairs have had it made clear what any sort of disagreement will do to how much time they'll have left in those fancy chairs.

Edited March 4, 2012 by SirRobin

[iceperson]

I am curious to know why all the hate for this game in this forum? I been playing for about a week now, and this is the most fun I have had with an mmo since I quit playing WoW.

 

it's actually a very small percentage of the overall pop. the qq at the start was mainly from people who thought swtor was going to be something else (what I can't say), but the ones left are more likely the kind of people who simply enjoy trolling or have something to gain. swtor isn't perfect (no game is), but if you don't like it tell BW why when you /cancel and move on. i imagine there's a PR firm or firms out there for some other developers that's making a decent amount of coin from the negative noise.

[Blackardin]

You think that in 5 years all the static, lifeless and flat environments found in SWTOR are going to suddenly become a big expansive world you can explore? No.

 

 

Define what you mean by this. It is a huge generalization that is both vague and overly broad. I can't answer if I have no idea what you are talking about. By this argument, every MMORPG is a failure based on its environmental featuers.

 

What I can argue, based not on my opinion, but past MMORPGs is that the game, in five years, will be greatly advanced, and totally different then it was at release. I would contend that we have only visited a minute area of each planet as an aspect of leveling, and that additional areas will open as new expansions are released.

 

The fact that you continuously try to pass off this game as a 'living breathing world that will evolve' is laughable. There is no MMO out there (save for Rift) that is as static and dead as this game is. It's worse than the original Guild Wars (again, didn't have to pay a monthly fee).

 

You have still not supported your argument beyond conjecture. My counter contention is also speculation, but based on the natural progression of virtually every MMORPG. An example of this would be Wow, in which vast expansions of area, clases, content took place with each expansion released.

 

Beyond that argument, once again, tihs is your opinion and has not, in any way, demonstrated that the game is a failure, just that you do not like it based on a number of aspects that you believe will make it better.

 

That is fine. We are all entitled to our own opinion. However, when one attempts to pass opinion off as fact, then use that extrapolation as a means of promulgating their opinion into law, one should expect to have to demonstrate their point with some modicum of proof beyond what has been argued.

 

I also never said this game was a failure. Your emotional attachment to this game is clearly clouding your judgement, and it's a sign of weakness. I know you know that what I'm saying is true, you just refuse to accept it

 

Logical fallacy, Ad homiem. Never a good idea. ;p

[Tic-]

By "match the content" I mean have as much content at endgame as a game that's been out for 8 years. It's impossible.

 

The reality of the situation is that, at launch, this game has more endgame content than any other game LAUNCHED with. BioWare has already written content for this game a year in advance.

 

More content is coming. More playability is coming. Bug fixes are coming. Modifiable UI is coming. Add-on support is coming. This game, as I said, is in a better state 2 months from launch than even RIFT was when it was two months old. Better than WoW was at two months old. Better than LotRO, Warhammer, EQ2, <insert MMO here> was at two months old.

 

People complaining that there is not enough content at endgame have forgotten this very important fact, and to expect a year's worth of endgame content at two months is completely and utterly unrealistic. Anyone expecting that is only setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

Yes, and when i say "match the content" i mean exactly that.

 

Endgame, theres nothing here that seperates from it WoW, and from what i am seeing, nothing in the future

 

Ilum, Outlaws Den, Space Content, all chances to seperate yourself... All really sad attempts

 

Naw, lets go with rated BGs... err Warzones.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Tic-

[SirRobin]

You would first have to define his "assumption" as I see no assumption made. You would then have to disprove his assumption beyond the use of fallacy.

 

As I stated, the question was asked. The poster demonstrated a viable answer based on factual data. Those awards were, in fact, given. Assuming that, regardless of those awards, the game will fail is an incorrect assumption based upon logical fallacy. To qualify such as proof based on a single game that held some awards is equally faulty logic as I losely demonstrated.

 

Your opinon of the poster, your opinion of his posting methods are largely irrelevant to the subject matter, no more or less then mine of you, be it positive or negative.

 

 

Nice try, would you prefer implication instead? lol

 

The question is asked, "Why are so many people saying this game is bad?" One poster replies to a question with a question and links to a page showing awards given by... people. So, how many people? Yet when you actually read the original poster's post its stated, "in this forum."

 

Well how many of the people giving those rewards are in this forum? Well they have not all stepped forward, nor are they all tracked that I am aware of. So, out of context with the original post, another poster posts a question referencing claims made outside this forum.

 

When looking at such rewards it is hardly unimaginable to ponder what rewards other products might have been given. Warhammer Online and Rift appear to have also been given a variety of rewards. Supposedly implying the product was "good." Well, at least worth the award.

 

Considering the current state of those product's in the mumorpuger market, it would also be hardly unimaginable to ponder why they would have called it "good" in the first place if they have obviously not remained very popular compared to the leading product in their field.

 

Therefore, replying to a question replying to a question with a question is hardly a flaw in reasoning nor an attempt to fool some of the people some of the time. Especially when the second question does not pay attention to the context of the first question.

 

[iceperson]

 

Nice try, would you prefer implication instead? lol

 

The question is asked, "Why are so many people saying this game is bad?" One poster replies to a question with a question and links to a page showing awards given by... people. So, how many people? Yet when you actually read the original poster's post its stated, "in this forum."

 

Well how many of the people giving those rewards are in this forum? Well they have not all stepped forward, nor are they all tracked that I am aware of. So, out of context with the original post, another poster posts a question referencing claims made outside this forum.

 

When looking at such rewards it is hardly unimaginable to ponder what rewards other products might have been given. Warhammer Online and Rift appear to have also been given a variety of rewards. Supposedly implying the product was "good." Well, at least worth the award.

 

Considering the current state of those product's in the mumorpuger market, it would also be hardly unimaginable to ponder why they would have called it "good" in the first place if they have obviously not remained very popular compared to the leading product in their field.

 

Therefore, replying to a question replying to a question with a question is hardly a flaw in reasoning nor an attempt to fool some of the people some of the time. Especially when the second question does not pay attention to the context of the first question.

 

 

So in your opinion Popular == Good?

 

I'm curious, do you think firefly was good? How about Arrested development? Neither of those were very popular, so they must not have been very good.

 

You must think Justin Beiber, Twilight books, and Miley Cyrus are good then, because they appear to be very popular...

[Icebaron]

I am curious to know why all the hate for this game in this forum? I been playing for about a week now, and this is the most fun I have had with an mmo since I quit playing WoW.

 

Most of us had a blast the first week.

[Esaru]

Define what you mean by this. It is a huge generalization that is both vague and overly broad. I can't answer if I have no idea what you are talking about. By this argument, every MMORPG is a failure based on its environmental featuers.

 

What I can argue, based not on my opinion, but past MMORPGs is that the game, in five years, will be greatly advanced, and totally different then it was at release. I would contend that we have only visited a minute area of each planet as an aspect of leveling, and that additional areas will open as new expansions are released.

 

 

 

You have still not supported your argument beyond conjecture. My counter contention is also speculation, but based on the natural progression of virtually every MMORPG. An example of this would be Wow, in which vast expansions of area, clases, content took place with each expansion released.

 

Beyond that argument, once again, tihs is your opinion and has not, in any way, demonstrated that the game is a failure, just that you do not like it based on a number of aspects that you believe will make it better.

 

That is fine. We are all entitled to our own opinion. However, when one attempts to pass opinion off as fact, then use that extrapolation as a means of promulgating their opinion into law, one should expect to have to demonstrate their point with some modicum of proof beyond what has been argued.

 

 

 

Logical fallacy, Ad homiem. Never a good idea. ;p

 

That was a funny read, especially the last couple of lines. All you really managed to say (while coming off as a pompous pseudo-intellectual) is that I need 'proof'. Well the proof is there, you just don't want to see it. Nothing I say or do will make you see it. Where's your 'proof' that the game is a 'living breathing MMORPG world'? Because you have yet to bring ANY evidence to the table.

 

"Beyond that argument, once again, tihs is your opinion and has not, in any way, demonstrated that the game is a failure." is all I need to see to realize that you're not even listening to what I'm saying. I even specifically stated that I NEVER said this game was a failure and yet you continue to assume just that.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Esaru

[JeramieCrowe]

Yes, and when i say "match the content" i mean exactly that.

 

Endgame, theres nothing here that seperates from it WoW, and from what i am seeing, nothing in the future

 

Ilum, Outlaws Den, Space Content, all chances to seperate yourself... All really sad attempts

 

Naw, lets go with rated BGs... err Warzones.

 

Then you have missed out on all the interviews, summits, and statements constantly made by the devs that each of the 8 storylines are going to have continuing content (after all, when you reach 50, the end of Chapter 3, it says "Interlude") that will extend into endgame, that the writers already have a year's worth of content laid out, that more single-player content will be added to what's already on Ilum, that Live Events are coming, that content content content is on its way as early as 1.2, that more Flashpoints and Operations are already being added.

 

So, we have a game here that launched with more endgame content than any other MMO, and more content is already coming down the pipe with no end of it in sight.

 

I don't know how you missed all that.

Edited March 4, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Andryah]

It's not an opinion and frankly, it's not up for debate.

 

Silliest statement in the forum this week, IMO.

 

Setting aside your slew of ad hominen attacks (including what I quoted) upon the other forum member in your post......

 

EVERYTHING IS UP FOR DEBATE in an MMO general form.

 

Because EVERYTHING POSTED IN A FORUM IS IN FACT SOMEONES OPINION.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Andryah

[iceperson]

Because EVERYTHING POSTING IN A FORUM IS IN FACT SOMEONES OPINION.

 

2+2=4

 

discuss

[krinaman]

theres nothing here that seperates from it WoW,

 

Ah, one of the two biggests complaints, which are:

 

 

1 - It's too much like WoW

2 - It's not enough like WoW

[Andryah]

Ah, one of the two biggests complaints, which are:

 

 

1 - It's too much like WoW

2 - It's not enough like WoW

 

LOL.... Yup!

[SirRobin]

So in your opinion Popular == Good?

 

I'm curious, do you think firefly was good? How about Arrested development? Neither of those were very popular, so they must not have been very good.

 

You must think Justin Beiber, Twilight books, and Miley Cyrus are good then, because they appear to be very popular...

 

Meh... Associating popularity with good is hardly uncalled for since I doubt, and reasonably so, that most of those leaving are thinking to themselves, "TOR is just too good of a game for me to keep paying for it."

[Esaru]

Sillest statement in the forum this week, IMO.

 

Setting aside your slew of ad hominen attacks (including what I quoted) upon the other forum member in your post......

 

EVERYTHING IS UP FOR DEBATE in an MMO general form.

 

Because EVERYTHING POSTING IN A FORUM IS IN FACT SOMEONES OPINION.

 

Oh, you can go ahead and debate it if you want - it doesn't mean you're right. Facts are often taken as 'opinion' because the opposing party won't accept it in the face of obvious evidence. This happens with everything in life, from religion to politics to mundane daily tasks. Are you trying to tell me that SWTOR is a huge, expansive world full of neat flora and fauna that really captures the essence of a living, breathing social world? Because if you said yes, even if it was your opinion, you'd essentially be wrong. I know it's hard to accept that an opinion can be wrong, but if it goes against evidence and is contrary to the reality of the situation, then you're damn right it can be. Having an opinion doesn't make you an indefensible special snowflake that cannot be challenged by reality and truth.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Esaru

[viewtifuldee]

good, bad, fun, boring...it's all subjective.

 

Let people have their opinions and move on with your life.

[iceperson]

Meh... Associating popularity with good is hardly uncalled for since I doubt, and reasonably so, that most of those leaving are thinking to themselves, "TOR is just too good of a game for me to keep paying for it."

 

why do you think most of those not leaving are staying? do you think something needs 100% of the people to like it for it to be good? can you not think of anything you like that most people don't know/care about?

 

did you play wow at release? do you remember the forum qq? do you remember warriors rolling gnomes and crashing servers to make a statement? i was there when downtime was measured in days not hours at WoWs release. if you think there's a lot of qq here you haven't seen anything. WoW seemed to do okay though...

[Cepheid]

why do you think most of those not leaving are staying? do you think something needs 100% of the people to like it for it to be good? can you not think of anything you like that most people don't know/care about?

 

did you play wow at release? do you remember the forum qq? do you remember warriors rolling gnomes and crashing servers to make a statement? i was there when downtime was measured in days not hours at WoWs release. if you think there's a lot of qq here you haven't seen anything. WoW seemed to do okay though...

 

Wow was an exception as it took great features from previous MMOs and put them together in one game. It wasn't innovative but it was a collection of popular features from other MMOs. WoW is exactly what SWTOR is not as Bioware essentially decided they didn't care about the features people wanted at launch nor did they put together a particularly solid game or build on previous good ideas in the industry (outside of voiceover /slowclap). The same quality that made WoW popular is what is causing SWTOR's hemorrhaging, a complete lack of easy popular features.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Cepheid

[Tic-]

Ah, one of the two biggests complaints, which are:

 

 

1 - It's too much like WoW

2 - It's not enough like WoW

 

Oh i agree..

 

You have the same endgame as WoW, some people will get bored rather quickly.

 

Others will wonder why you don't have all the fixins WoW has (lfg, add-ons, flying mounts).

 

Me, i fall into the first group.

[peroxsigh]

something that cost 200 million to 300 million should be close to perfection if not perfected

 

things like combat delay have no place in a project that has this kind of budget backing it up

 

this is how 200 million dollar look like

 

Not true ,at all. You ***** look at a price tag and assume it should be perfection. The fact is, nothing is cheap anymore. And even making a 'bad' game costs a money.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Trineda
removed inflammatory comment

[iceperson]

Wow was an exception...

 

well, as long as you say so...

 

had you and the poster i responded to spent any time on the wow forums at release i'm sure you would have be sure it was doomed too.

[Tic-]

Then you have missed out on all the interviews, summits, and statements constantly made by the devs that each of the 8 storylines are going to have continuing content (after all, when you reach 50, the end of Chapter 3, it says "Interlude") that will extend into endgame, that the writers already have a year's worth of content laid out, that more single-player content will be added to what's already on Ilum, that Live Events are coming, that content content content is on its way as early as 1.2, that more Flashpoints and Operations are already being added.

 

So, we have a game here that launched with more endgame content than any other MMO, and more content is already coming down the pipe with no end of it in sight.

 

I don't know how you missed all that.

 

Once again, I'm not complaining about the amount of content.

[Andryah]

you can go ahead and debate it if you want - it doesn't mean you're right.

 

Silly person. You are not very comfortable outside of a binary paradigm are you?

 

Right/wrong has nothing to do with opinion or debate per se. They only impart a quality upon opinion and debate.

 

Actually, to debate requires differing (sometimes opposing) opinions, not right/wrong.

 

Now, while opposing opinion could be arbitrarily distilled down to binary theorums of right vs wrong, this is rarely the case in reality. If you ever participated in collegiate debate, you would know this as a reality of discussion between human beings. If you ever participated in a political or religious discussion you would know this as a practical matter of human nature.

 

Humans are not binary expressions of reality.

 

No matter how hard you try to make them that way through your dictatorial proclomations and ad hominem attacks, they remain non-binary expressions of reality.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Andryah

[Cepheid]

well, as long as you say so...

 

had you and the poster i responded to spent any time on the wow forums at release i'm sure you would have be sure it was doomed too.

 

I played from Vanilla to WotLK. Please find some other way to discredit my observation outside of flinging your lack of knowledge about my personal gaming history into the ring. Perhaps had you spent any time gathering info before making a comment like this then you wouldn't continue to get lambasted for poorly constructed arguments in the forums.

 

Perhaps reading and responding to the actual observation rather than attempting an ad hominem comment about my gaming history (BBS MUDS and up there super guy) would be more appropriate.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Cepheid

[SirRobin]

why do you think most of those not leaving are staying? do you think something needs 100% of the people to like it for it to be good? can you not think of anything you like that most people don't know/care about?

 

did you play wow at release? do you remember the forum qq? do you remember warriors rolling gnomes and crashing servers to make a statement? i was there when downtime was measured in days not hours at WoWs release. if you think there's a lot of qq here you haven't seen anything. WoW seemed to do okay though...

 

Well I'm still here, and paying, but its mostly because something better has not come along yet. I understand that those giving awards and those paying to make these games are likely not solely interested in only my opinion. Nor yours. The ones giving those rewards are probably more interested in their own opinions. The ones paying to make these games are likely more interested in the general opinion of their targeted demographic.

 

So when the vast majority of those who buy a product do not keep paying to keep playing, then it doesn't really matter if I think its good or not. It didn't let Mark keep his job, nor all the others laid off afterward, at Mythic.

 

Actually I was a day one WoW'ser and I played it for around six months straight. The key difference between then and now is, first of all, the amount of people actually playing. Second of all, the amount of people who wanted to keep playing. I recall WoW's growing pains and it could be trying at times. However, the game was so "good" that I actually wanted to keep coming back. TOR? Not so much...