Please allow dual spec or cap respec costs.

[HoneyBoy]

And we'll see just how many Operations Groups want you with them when you DPS in a Healing Spec

 

It's obvious MajikMyst speaks from the mindset of questing and solo play, which makes it even more mind boggling why they would care what other people do with their specs.

[MajikMyst]

I have browsed through this thread and this is the majority of what I see from the anti-dual spec crowd. More hyperbole, strawman, and fallacies.

 

Care to explain how me having dual spec harms your personal enjoyment of the game other than your need to dictate how I play?

 

How about we not talk about anyone's personal game play and you explain to us how dual speccing well have no effect on the game play at large??

 

Look at the big picture here..

 

Can you even give a logical and viable reason to have dual speccing??

 

Take any character and their companion and name a single situation where dual speccing is required..

 

What I see from the dual speccing crowed is hyperbole, strawman, and fallacies..

 

Dual speccing deminishes the quality of the game and the players playing the game.. That effects all of us..

 

WOW is a perfect case study in the effects of dual speccing.. WOW has been nerfed countless times because people in general lacked the skills needed to succeed.. People complained the raids were to hard.. They weren't hard.. People never learned what 'Don't stand in fire!!' means.. So they would stand there and die.. Nobody knew how to work as a team.. Nobody knew how to play their own characters.. Dual speccing lead to all this.

 

People could no longer specialize in the specs they like the most.. They had to have 2 specs to learn.. The loot issue.. Everyone rolling for off specs.. It is bad enough we have peeps rolling for companions.. All troopers will be looked up as tanks.. All Sages will be looked upon as healers.. People will be asked to change specs to ones they don't want to play to complete a group because the raid leader is to lazy to get the right person.. Or it is easier to get DPS..

 

There are a ton of things that dual speccing changes.. None of which are fallacies or hyperbol.. There are no strawman arguements here..

 

What is here is your desire to pit your wants against a single person and not the entire game.. Since when was what you wanted more important than all of us??

[hata]

I see a lot of people not wanting this because people do not want a person to be a tank/healer/dps or saying it would break the game because there are only 4 classes. I feel that a lot of people are forgetting the basic mechanic of the game. You can not unpick your advanced class and they will not change that.

 

Duel specing would only allow people to be dps/tank or dps/heal. Unless there is something i missed no class would be able to be a trinity on their own.

 

I like duel spec because i like to pve and pve regularly and its nice to have independent builds.

[HoneyBoy]

How about we not talk about anyone's personal game play and you explain to us how dual speccing well have no effect on the game play at large??

 

Look at the big picture here..

 

Can you even give a logical and viable reason to have dual speccing??

 

Take any character and their companion and name a single situation where dual speccing is required..

 

What I see from the dual speccing crowed is hyperbole, strawman, and fallacies..

 

Dual speccing deminishes the quality of the game and the players playing the game.. That effects all of us..

 

WOW is a perfect case study in the effects of dual speccing.. WOW has been nerfed countless times because people in general lacked the skills needed to succeed.. People complained the raids were to hard.. They weren't hard.. People never learned what 'Don't stand in fire!!' means.. So they would stand there and die.. Nobody knew how to work as a team.. Nobody knew how to play their own characters.. Dual speccing lead to all this.

 

People could no longer specialize in the specs they like the most.. They had to have 2 specs to learn.. The loot issue.. Everyone rolling for off specs.. It is bad enough we have peeps rolling for companions.. All troopers will be looked up as tanks.. All Sages will be looked upon as healers.. People will be asked to change specs to ones they don't want to play to complete a group because the raid leader is to lazy to get the right person.. Or it is easier to get DPS..

 

There are a ton of things that dual speccing changes.. None of which are fallacies or hyperbol.. There are no strawman arguements here..

 

What is here is your desire to pit your wants against a single person and not the entire game.. Since when was what you wanted more important than all of us??

 

You say there is no hyperbole or fallacies in your argument but the very crux of your argument is that dual-speccing led to people being less skilled overall in World of Warcraft. How exactly did you measure that again?

 

If people aren't up to par with "your idea" of what their personal skill level should be, then that's your personal problem. I don't see how dual speccing has any correlation to people not being able to avoid environmental hazards in World of Warcraft. Or how you even measured the effects of dual-speccing at large (hint: it's impossible) without resulting to your own experiences and making generalizations from there.

Edited January 9, 2012 by HoneyBoy

[Godsfear]

There is no reason that you can't DPS in your healing spec either.. Again.. People really need to learn to play the game..

 

 

This is the second dumbest thing I've ever read on a mmo forums next to the other guy who said........................DUUUURRRRR?

[MajikMyst]

if someone came into my group as "dps" with a heal spec, i would shove my foot up their *** and kick em the hell out.

 

i would much rather have a competent dps then people having to run hybrid specs because they are so broke they cant even respec.

 

Haven't been playing this game to long have ya??

 

My wife is a Jedi Sage (Healer), I am a Jedi Sentinel (DPS).. With companions we do the about the same dps.. We can both mow through the same number of mobs at the about the same time.. Sometimes she is first, sometimes I am first..

 

Qyzen her companion is a tank.. She is heals.. They are killing stuff as fast as Kira and myself.. Both of us are strict DPS..

 

So you would be somewhat foolish to kick them out.. But that is my opinion..

[Godsfear]

How about we not talk about anyone's personal game play and you explain to us how dual speccing well have no effect on the game play at large??

 

Look at the big picture here..

 

Can you even give a logical and viable reason to have dual speccing??

 

Take any character and their companion and name a single situation where dual speccing is required..

 

What I see from the dual speccing crowed is hyperbole, strawman, and fallacies..

 

Dual speccing deminishes the quality of the game and the players playing the game.. That effects all of us..

 

WOW is a perfect case study in the effects of dual speccing.. WOW has been nerfed countless times because people in general lacked the skills needed to succeed.. People complained the raids were to hard.. They weren't hard.. People never learned what 'Don't stand in fire!!' means.. So they would stand there and die.. Nobody knew how to work as a team.. Nobody knew how to play their own characters.. Dual speccing lead to all this.

 

People could no longer specialize in the specs they like the most.. They had to have 2 specs to learn.. The loot issue.. Everyone rolling for off specs.. It is bad enough we have peeps rolling for companions.. All troopers will be looked up as tanks.. All Sages will be looked upon as healers.. People will be asked to change specs to ones they don't want to play to complete a group because the raid leader is to lazy to get the right person.. Or it is easier to get DPS..

 

There are a ton of things that dual speccing changes.. None of which are fallacies or hyperbol.. There are no strawman arguements here..

 

What is here is your desire to pit your wants against a single person and not the entire game.. Since when was what you wanted more important than all of us??

 

 

Answer: because I enjoy playing mulitple roles in a mmo and I don't roll alts. It's fun for me. It's fun for me. It's fun for me. It's fun for me.

 

since it's not fun for you don't respec. There you go.

[HoneyBoy]

Haven't been playing this game to long have ya??

 

My wife is a Jedi Sage (Healer), I am a Jedi Sentinel (DPS).. With companions we do the about the same dps.. We can both mow through the same number of mobs at the about the same time.. Sometimes she is first, sometimes I am first..

 

Qyzen her companion is a tank.. She is heals.. They are killing stuff as fast as Kira and myself.. Both of us are strict DPS..

 

So you would be somewhat foolish to kick them out.. But that is my opinion..

 

You know your last post complained about how dual speccing had some sort of correlation to people standing in the fire on World of Warcraft. Now you're advocating we bring companions who have no sense of evading environmental hazards instead!?

[ferroz]

Can you even give a logical and viable reason to have dual speccing??

Because there are people that want it, will enjoy it, and the people who don't want it and won't enjoy it are not affected in the slightest by it.

 

ask a hard one.

 

Take any character and their companion and name a single situation where dual speccing is required..

Nice strawman there.

 

What I see from the dual speccing crowed is hyperbole, strawman, and fallacies..

Oooh, the hypocrisy.

 

Dual speccing deminishes the quality of the game and the players playing the game.

False statement.

 

That effects all of us..

Since the hypothesis is false, your conclusion is false.

 

WOW is a perfect case study in the effects of dual speccing.. WOW has been nerfed countless times because people in general lacked the skills needed to succeed..

Fallacy: correlation is not causation.

 

the issue you're talking about is actually the result of WoW attempting to make it's content more accessible, which has nothing to do with multispeccing.

 

People could no longer specialize in the specs they like the most.. They had to have 2 specs to learn..

False statement. My main in wow is a shaman. I'm elemental/elemental. I am not required to learn another spec.

 

The loot issue.. Everyone rolling for off specs..

They were there, they earned the loot, what exactly is the issue?

 

All troopers will be looked up as tanks..

Uh, only one trooper AC can tank as far as I'm aware. Example fail.

 

All Sages will be looked upon as healers..

They are already.

 

People will be asked to change specs to ones they don't want to play to complete a group because the raid leader is to lazy to get the right person.. Or it is easier to get DPS..

So... people will ask people to change specs in order to spend less time waiting around doing nothing... exactly what is the problem? It's not like people will be forced to change specs any more than they are in wow.

 

There are a ton of things that dual speccing changes..

Surely you could give a single example if this was actually the case. Until you do I'm going to just assert that this is a false statement.

 

What is here is your desire to pit your wants against a single person and not the entire game.. Since when was what you wanted more important than all of us??

Assuming that you are the majority is fallacious logic. Edited January 9, 2012 by ferroz

[Migrayn]

Actually.. Dual Spec is so wrong....

Feels like cheating to me.

Or more like spoiling people who cant choose and want everything easy.

 

If you want to tank... roll a tank.

If you want to healer ... roll a healer.

etc..

Whats wrong with creating 3 chars?...

 

And if you dont want to roll 3 chars... then you have to pay for the privilege of not having to level up 2-3 chars.

 

Sounds normal to me.

 

Being able to create 1 char that can fill 3 rolls on the fly is not only "to easy" ... its also just plain unrealistic (yes.. i said it.. unrealistic in a fantasy game!!)

 

But hey.. it'll probably be implemented cause there are more people wanting easy-play then there are people that want a challenge

 

Sometimes its not a matter of not wanting to roll 2 classes. Sometimes people do not have time to do so. Or they dont want to make the same character in a story game just to have a pve spec and a pvp spec.

 

It doesnt have to be on the fly as you put it. Its not like dual spec lets you tank and dps at the same time. They could make it so you have to goto your ship to change spec. This way we couldnt change so "on the fly".

 

Games are about choices but also about fun. After i work a 10-11 hour day i want to relax and have fun. Not be forced to do pvp in a pve spec just because you dont like dual specs.

 

If you really dont like it you do not have to use dual spec. You can make 2 characters and the rest of us can enjoy the game as we like.

[MajikMyst]

This is the second dumbest thing I've ever read on a mmo forums next to the other guy who said........................DUUUURRRRR?

 

For someone who plays WOW perhaps..

 

Not SWTOR.. I haved been playing this game for over 6 months now.. Every spec is a DPS spec.. You aren't handicapped like you were in WOW.. Not to mention you do have companions.. Which everyone seems to forget.. If they area geared right they are ready for any sitution..

 

This is not WOW people.. Anyone attempting to use the WOW excuses simply hasn't played this game long enough.. Why level as a healer if you can't DPS as one??

 

The game has only been out for a few weeks.. So.. This is all understandable..

 

When in doubt!!! Speak to the great orange pixel for advice!!

 

.

[Godsfear]

You know your last post complained about how dual speccing had some sort of correlation to people standing in the fire on World of Warcraft. Now you're advocating we bring companions who have no sense of evading environmental hazards instead!?

 

I hate using the companions personally. I look forward to the day I'm geared enough to just solo level 50 packs by myself.

 

it's incredible they let the companions be CC'able. I ganked dozens of people leveling by just cc'ing their pet. I got ganked once while leveling. Blows my mind they didnt think about this.

 

I only gank people in hopes enough complain about how broken it is they fix it.

[MajikMyst]

Answer: because I enjoy playing mulitple roles in a mmo and I don't roll alts. It's fun for me. It's fun for me. It's fun for me. It's fun for me.

 

since it's not fun for you don't respec. There you go.

 

Then roll multiple characters or change spec the way that is already currently allowed..

 

Problem solved..

[Lethality]

Off the list huh?

 

Very disappointed in you Lethality over that. Gameplay is completely different in Warzones. There is nothing remotely "roleplay-focused" about them. You auto-magically teleport in from anywhere in the galaxy, and you auto-magically teleport out. Level 50 PvP Gear uses Stats that don't matter at all in PvE. I know what BioWare said they wanted... but they failed, badly.

 

I'm basing it off of BioWare's stated design vision, and if they failed it, that's where we need to concentrate the feedback. PvP "specs" are a different issue altogether than trinity roles!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Lethality

[DaxRendar]

How about we not talk about anyone's personal game play and you explain to us how dual speccing well have no effect on the game play at large??

 

Look at the big picture here..

 

Can you even give a logical and viable reason to have dual speccing??

 

MANY have been given - whether you agree with them or not is a different matter

 

Take any character and their companion and name a single situation where dual speccing is required..

 

-You are aware that Companions can't be used in Operations right?

-You are aware that Companions can't be used in Warzones?

-You are aware that Companions aren't proving good enough for Hard and Nightmare Mode Flashpoints, right?

 

There's just 3 cases off the top of my head

 

WOW is a perfect case study in the effects of dual speccing.. WOW has been nerfed countless times because people in general lacked the skills needed to succeed.. People complained the raids were to hard.. They weren't hard.. People never learned what 'Don't stand in fire!!' means.. So they would stand there and die.. Nobody knew how to work as a team.. Nobody knew how to play their own characters.. Dual speccing lead to all this.

 

Correlation <> Causation

 

There were many who were clueless before Dual Spec. There are many clueless after. However, there are also many competent players who can excel at multiple specs/classes/roles.

 

People could no longer specialize in the specs they like the most.. They had to have 2 specs to learn..

 

COMPLETE FALLACY

 

Nobody I know has ever been forced to play a Spec they didn't like (except in this game, where apparently you and a few vocal others think I should be FORCED to use a Healing Spec in PvP )

 

The loot issue.. Everyone rolling for off specs.. It is bad enough we have peeps rolling for companions.. All troopers will be looked up as tanks.. All Sages will be looked upon as healers.. People will be asked to change specs to ones they don't want to play to complete a group because the raid leader is to lazy to get the right person.. Or it is easier to get DPS..

 

All of that exists now. None of it is exacerbated by Dual Spec. None.

 

There are a ton of things that dual speccing changes.. None of which are fallacies or hyperbol.. There are no strawman arguements here..

 

You're right, Dual Speccing does chage a lot of things.

-Groups form much Faster

-More players can play in the roles and styles they choose

-A MUCH larger percentage of the population will be viable at any time for grouping

 

What is here is your desire to pit your wants against a single person and not the entire game.. Since when was what you wanted more important than all of us??

 

Single person? Since when is your desire more important than all of us?

Edited January 9, 2012 by DaxRendar

[Trimag]

Yup. I don't know about you but I play games to work hard instead of having fun. Challenge is fine. Artificial grind isn't. Having to level the same character twice is silly.

 

Exactly. Just slip in a class respec like SWG and like everyone else, make it a progressive credit sink. More times you change profession, the more it costs.

 

For us "casual gamers", Really don't want to spend doing the grind eight different times to have different professions available to me. Gaming time is limited as it is with work, family, school, etc. Flame as you want, but facts are facts. A lot of folks who sub don't have the time to spend going through the grind yet again so they can play. Now if you do have the time, then my hats off to you. You win the internet.

[GellonSW]

Is it just me or is the class system with MMOs starting to become outdated? Instead of having distinct personalities like healer, or DPS, or tank we should just create one class for each side. Republic Hero and Imperial Hero. They can accomplish every role needed because at the end of all the semantic thats what we are striving for, right? Player flexibility in groups whether it be PvE or PvP.

[ferroz]

Is it just me or is the class system with MMOs starting to become outdated? Instead of having distinct personalities like healer, or DPS, or tank we should just create one class for each side. Republic Hero and Imperial Hero. They can accomplish every role needed because at the end of all the semantic thats what we are striving for, right? Player flexibility in groups whether it be PvE or PvP.

that doesn't actually address what people are looking for out of dual spec in any way.

 

so I'd say: "Yes, it's just you"

Edited January 9, 2012 by ferroz

[DaxRendar]

I'm basing it off of BioWare's stated design vision, and if they failed it, that's where we need to concentrate the feedback. PvP "specs" are a different issue altogether than trinity roles!

 

Yes, but:

(a) we both know they aren't going to completely redesign PvP

(b) I don't see Dual Spec for PvE as a problem either

 

I have a choice - ask BioWare to redesign the whole freakin' game to get rid of the entire Holy Trinity/Class Based/Talent Build concept and ensure all Characters can effectively Heal/Tank/Buff/DPS/Support at all times...

 

or ask them to add Dual Spec

 

I know which one is simpler and more likely to happen

[kimmiekros]

Is it just me or is the class system with MMOs starting to become outdated? Instead of having distinct personalities like healer, or DPS, or tank we should just create one class for each side. Republic Hero and Imperial Hero. They can accomplish every role needed because at the end of all the semantic thats what we are striving for, right? Player flexibility in groups whether it be PvE or PvP.

 

Cough...Guild Wars 2 cough...

 

Otherwise @OP /signed for respec costs being made trivial so players that are skilled to fill multiple roles can exercise that skill.

 

To all the one dimensional players that can't see past doing one thing in game, your arguments for gimped game play is bad.

[ferroz]

Then roll multiple characters or change spec the way that is already currently allowed..

 

Problem ignored but not solved..

fixed that for you.

 

Rolling multiple characters does not address the issues that people have with the current method of playing multiple specs with a single character.

 

Nor does respeccing, pretty much by definition, since the whole point is that people aren't happy with that as the current way of playing multiple spec's with one character. Beyond the scaling cost, there's a lack of UI snapshotting available, which is really the bigger deal for many people.

[Godsfear]

For someone who plays WOW perhaps..

 

Not SWTOR.. I haved been playing this game for over 6 months now.. Every spec is a DPS spec.. You aren't handicapped like you were in WOW.. Not to mention you do have companions.. Which everyone seems to forget.. If they area geared right they are ready for any sitution..

 

This is not WOW people.. Anyone attempting to use the WOW excuses simply hasn't played this game long enough.. Why level as a healer if you can't DPS as one??

 

The game has only been out for a few weeks.. So.. This is all understandable..

 

When in doubt!!! Speak to the great orange pixel for advice!!

 

.

 

So that your deal huh? Anyone who calls you out on your horrible ideas played WOW? I did play WOW once when BC was around. I liked BC but quit because of pvp gear and not wanting to grind two sets of gear to compete in pvp.

 

so yes, I did play WOW 5 years ago. Since then I played WAR 1.5 years and Rift for 6 months. You can even throw a Tabula Rasa in there as well with some City of Hero as well.

 

The problem you seem to be facing is stating dumb things on the internet and being called on it.

 

Why you would want to dictate how others play is beyond me.

 

Why someone cares how other people play is beyond me.

 

I can totally understand having laws telling people not to harm each other, but to tell others they should enjoy a video game in the same way you do is childish.

 

If you don't like changing specs so be it, but that is half the fun for me and many others.

[teddy_bear]

Just throwing this out there since my earlier post seems to have been ignored, TANKS MUST RESPEC TO RUN THE END GAME OPERATION KARAGGA'S PALACE. This concept of all classes being able to do something is wrong.

 

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Godsfear]

Cough...Guild Wars 2 cough...

 

Otherwise @OP /signed for respec costs being made trivial so players that are skilled to fill multiple roles can exercise that skill.

 

To all the one dimensional players that can't see past doing one thing in game, your arguments for gimped game play is bad.

 

GW2 has done away with the traditional mastery tree.

 

It's much closer to WAR's tactic system but much more expansive.

 

GW2 designers have already said they've ran dungeons only with elementalist's in different specs.

 

Gw2 will allow you to spec any class into a variety of roles quickly and easily but Arenanet is also a super hip company who knows what the modern mmo gamer wants.

 

We want fun gameplay.

[Lethality]

Just throwing this out there since my earlier post seems to have been ignored, TANKS MUST RESPEC TO RUN THE END GAME OPERATION KARAGGA'S PALACE. This concept of all classes being able to do something is wrong.

 

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

I'm quite sure they do not.

 

But would be bad design, so again - concentrate your energy on requesting that be fixed. There is no design that should require a respec. And further, that's precisely what will happen if dual-specs are allowed. Encounters become even more Rube Goldberg-like than they already are with the added mechanic of switching specs.