Operative / Scoundrels - Are they balanced?

[Delolith]

To answer your question no.. they are not.. the only class in the game that can take 13k+ health from full health 0 in 3-4 seconds.. anyone else who argues it either plays an op or is an idiot.

 

What if the answer is both?

[BobaFurz]

I play an assassin and I love my class, I have the ability to defend and do good sustained damage - nothing too bursty except for when they get low and I can execute. I have full Champion gear and over 480 expertise and am always playing in tank stance with a hybrid shock build. So I'm normally pretty hard to take down...

 

But whenever an Operative or Scoundrel jumps me, and I don't have my trinket, they ALWAYS drop my health down below 40% in 2-3 seconds, and after that I can survive for 3-4 seconds more before they tear me apart - is this normal? I would understand if I was under-geared or a lowbie but I'm not - I have almost 6000+ armor over 15'000 hps - how is it that any class can drop over half my hps in just a few seconds?

 

Am I the one doing something wrong here? Even if I do pop my trinket they just vanish and open up on me again doing insane amounts of damage.

 

Any tips would be helpful, or should I just bend over and take it? ( vs equally or greater geared operatives/scoundrels ) I can take on anything else except for certain tank classes and op/smugg.

 

Try a hybrid or tank build, use your force speed, your slow, knockback, your dots ...very powerfull CC. Your dmg hits like a truck aswell since operatives are squishy. Alone force speed is a gods send.

Edited January 5, 2012 by BobaFurz

[BobaFurz]

I personally specced healing and i am a MUCH greater influence.

 

Iam thinking about this aswell, had several rounds with more organized teams and a concealment spec was more or less useless. Especially if they have good healers and guard from tanks, you cant do much with just dps spikes.

[Gamex]

Try a hybrid or tank build, use your force speed, your slow, knockback, your dots ...very powerfull CC. Your dmg hits like a truck aswell since operatives are squishy. Alone force speed is a gods send.

 

I am a hybrid tank build, 11/30 - with energize and 50% shock crit damage - I stay in tank stance and 2x regular slash (to proc energize) + shock and maul when my 50% amp up.

 

It's just frustrating fighting against a class where I have to pop everything just to stay alive and keep him at bay - even their out of stealth damage is pretty high, 2-3k a hit - I gotta do 2x hits for 6-1k and 1 hit for 2-3k.

 

A good operative will always destroy someone 1v1, even a sin - they seem to have an ability which makes them take little damage and they can heal themselves - and we've only got the potions. I don't know why people say they are a glass cannons, far from it - with their defensives and heal power they are quite formidable - in the right hands. Even bad players can destroy on the class because of the insanely strong opener.

[Gamex]

Iam thinking about this aswell, had several rounds with more organized teams and a concealment spec was more or less useless. Especially if they have good healers and guard from tanks, you cant do much with just dps spikes.

 

Any DPS class will suffer vs organized teams and guard lol - if I guard a good healer he can tank several people by himself, even operatives - guard + taunt are too strong atm.

[BobaFurz]

Any DPS class will suffer vs organized teams and guard lol - if I guard a good healer he can tank several people by himself, even operatives - guard + taunt are too strong atm.

 

Not just Gaurd + taunt, this in combination with healers...this is the most overpowered combination ingame currently.

 

The people who reroll to play operative/scoundrell will be wake up in pain and difficulties, especially when premades will roll the battlefields. There is a reason why operative has high burst dmg in this game, but I doubt it will be sufficient for a teamplay win. What I see is that classes with sustained but high defensive skills will own other teams.

Edited January 5, 2012 by BobaFurz

[AlkalineKitten]

No, they're completely faceroll. Don't feel bad losing to a fotm baddie that can't hack it playing any other class.

 

I just feel like if I was doing it on my Shadow, Sniper, or Powertech I'd still be getting this same heat.

 

That's PvP, though.

[Shortcake]

No, they're completely faceroll. Don't feel bad losing to a fotm baddie that can't hack it playing any other class.

 

sounds like someone got pwnd

[AlkalineKitten]

Not just Gaurd + taunt, this in combination with healers...this is the most overpowered combination ingame currently.

 

The people who reroll to play operative/scoundrell will be wake up in pain and difficulties, especially when premades will roll the battlefields. There is a reason why operative has high burst dmg in this game, but I doubt it will be sufficient for a teamplay win. What I see is that classes with sustained but high defensive skills will own other teams.

 

I agree. I don't play my Scoundrel to ROFLPWN people, I like to be an annoying monkey wrench with my interrupts and stuns, helping to clean up kills, and heal if need be. I find both stealth classes suited to this.

 

It's a pretty versatile class, and very useful within a team environment if you actually play to cooperate and not just to see big numbers.

[Masahiko]

Warzones are currently filled with reroll operatives/scoundrels. Every warzone I've played in the last 3 days has been made up of mid to high lvl everything else and low lvl operatives/scoundels.

 

So yes I call them fotm right now judging by what I'm seeing.

 

Anything below about 40 as an op/scoundrel should get killed so easily it should make your head spin. If you are losing to those rerolls, you never stood a chance against a good player of ANY class.

[Alwaysthirsty]

Sage/Inq do more:

 

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/6640/screenshot2011123111351.jpg

 

430k is my record for damage in a round and I'm fully geared in champ gear.

[Delove]

I play an assassin and I love my class, I have the ability to defend and do good sustained damage - nothing too bursty except for when they get low and I can execute. I have full Champion gear and over 480 expertise and am always playing in tank stance with a hybrid shock build. So I'm normally pretty hard to take down...

 

But whenever an Operative or Scoundrel jumps me, and I don't have my trinket, they ALWAYS drop my health down below 40% in 2-3 seconds, and after that I can survive for 3-4 seconds more before they tear me apart - is this normal? I would understand if I was under-geared or a lowbie but I'm not - I have almost 6000+ armor over 15'000 hps - how is it that any class can drop over half my hps in just a few seconds?

 

Am I the one doing something wrong here? Even if I do pop my trinket they just vanish and open up on me again doing insane amounts of damage.

 

Any tips would be helpful, or should I just bend over and take it? ( vs equally or greater geared operatives/scoundrels ) I can take on anything else except for certain tank classes and op/smugg.

 

 

you know what i do on my Sin is i wait til that Op is facerolling someone then i go faceroll them hehe

[Mailek]

There is currently no way to counter this either. The knockdown opener they do cannot be trinketed out of. You just get to take it until it gets under control.

 

My level 50 sniper in pvp gear still gets whacked down to 1/3 hp in 3 seconds. Nothing you can do.

 

You get a full Resolve Bar then use your Break ability and stun him back. If your ability is on a cooldown ya there isn't anything you can do. It would be nice if they reduced the CC breakout ability to 1 min because of all the heavy CC used in PvP.

[Rasui]

You are a op/scoundrels anticlass. If you are not beating them one on one something is wrong with the person behind the keyboard.

 

They should never ever get the opener on you if you are both stealthed and you know they are around. Their entire dps revolves around a positional opener and as soon as you see them you should be hitting them with ur insta cast.

 

After that they are yours. I can turn it around and say when a assassin/shadow gets the jump on me? I am screwed. When ranged gets the jump on me 30 yards away? I am screwed.

 

The only reason people aren't crying about assassins/shadows on this board is there is no combat log. If they knew the burst they were chaining together out of stealth, people would be crying nerfs for them as well.

 

The fastest I have ever died has not been to a operative. It has been to an assassin who had procs. As far as premades? Assassins/shadows are superior because they offer guard/taunts/ranges stuns/WAY better healer interupts because a op/scoundrel's opener fills their tagets resolve bar.

 

The ONE class that shouldn't cry about ops/scoundrels is yours. Who has a legitimate complaint? Bounty hunters/commandos that are dps specced and sorc/sages who are dps specced. The problem? Both specs can do more warzone dmg and are a hard counter to other melee. We are their counter. Why are they crying? Because they want no counter. Same reason idiot mages cried in WoW and STILL continue to cry in WoW on their forums.

 

As far as healers? When guard/taunt and expertise gear are used? We are probably the worst "healer killer/interupter" in the game. Healers running around without guard (why would they) and without expertise (brackets will fix this)? Yeah we destroy them. So does any burst class in WoW before resilience.

/thread

[sgpigeon]

Ok I do a lot of damage up front sure.

If anyone on your team was actually paying attention they would CC me, but that is pretty hard considering this game has no CC right?

CC me i am screwed. If you don't I will probably kill one squishy, while the rest of you beat the crap out of me. Or you ignore me and I go on a rampage.

Don't call for OP nerf when people or You don't react.

And I can do that to one person............nobody is complaining about sith sorcerers getting 200kdmg and 100k healing? ***.

Forcelightening..............forcelightening....................dead.

[Reenolols]

Ok I do a lot of damage up front sure.

If anyone on your team was actually paying attention they would CC me, but that is pretty hard considering this game has no CC right?

CC me i am screwed. If you don't I will probably kill one squishy, while the rest of you beat the crap out of me. Or you ignore me and I go on a rampage.

Don't call for OP nerf when people or You don't react.

And I can do that to one person............nobody is complaining about sith sorcerers getting 200kdmg and 100k healing? ***.

Forcelightening..............forcelightening....................dead.

 

I get 500k and 100k on a very regular basis, multiple times a day. Sorcs are a complete joke. Man it's completely a l2p issue if you're crying about a 200k 100k sorc.

[sgpigeon]

I get 500k and 100k on a very regular basis, multiple times a day. Sorcs are a complete joke. Man it's completely a l2p issue if you're crying about a 200k 100k sorc.

 

I never was crying. I am lvl 41 and hit about 150-175k regularly, which is usually the top few on my team. At least on my server the max from what I have seen is about 300k.

But this is coming from solo que pug dynamics. Rarely a healer covering you and not much teamwork. This doesn't appear to be the case for you.

The republic side on my server is severly out-leveled with us having 1 or 2 50's and the empire having 5-8 per warzone.

Edited January 11, 2012 by sgpigeon

[Hypernetic]

No they are not balanced. Anyone who plays one knows this too.

[YpaWinz]

I would say that they are balanced IF there was a counter to stealth or some way to mitigate the damage. However, in the current state, these classes are not balanced.

 

Even with the improved stealth talent, I get pulled out quite a bit by people who spot me. If I'm quick I can pop sneak and try to move away enough that they can't find me but that doesn't always work. If not that, then I'll get popped by a 'nade or some kind of AoE. There are plenty of ways to counter stealth.

 

As for mitigating the damage, when you're @ 50 against a similarly geared operative, the damage mitigation isn't near as big a factor as your reaction time.

 

What I would do is put a 15-30 sec CD on Hidden Strike. You can use it every fight as an opener, but you won't be able to Hidden Strike-Vanish-Hidden Strike combo.

 

All that would do is prevent bad operatives from wasting one of their 2 best defensive cooldowns and 2 GCD's.

 

I've seen a lot of ops do the Hidden Strike -> Cloaking Screen -> Hidden Strike combo and by and large it's unsuccessful. They waste their vanish, one of the only thing that saves them if their initial burst fails, and then waste another hiddenstrike on someone w/ a full resolve bar. That's 2 GCD's that could've been better spent on Shiv>Lacerate.

 

To answer your question no.. they are not.. the only class in the game that can take 13k+ health from full health 0 in 3-4 seconds.. anyone else who argues it either plays an op or is an idiot.

 

A geared lvl 50 op vs. a lvl 20 op w/ no gear? Maybe 13k-0 in 3-4 GCDs. That's 6 seconds, and assuming that the person we're attacking is dumb enough to just sit there like a slug.

 

A geared lvl 50 vs. a geared lvl 50? Not even close.

 

Once the 50 bracket gets rolling, I'm sure we'll see things even out and people will realize that while we do have a great deal of burst, it's not near as big an issue 50 vs. 50.

[RevenanceSLC]

You are a op/scoundrels anticlass. If you are not beating them one on one something is wrong with the person behind the keyboard.

 

Really? Anti-class you say? No. Even if we catch an operative in stealth the best we can do is pull them out of stealth and kill them though we dont have the burst to kill like ops do. Those crits you see in pvp videos are fully buffed and stimmed.

 

They should never ever get the opener on you if you are both stealthed and you know they are around. Their entire dps revolves around a positional opener and as soon as you see them you should be hitting them with ur insta cast.

This isnt as easy as it sounds. I promise. It's clear you've never played a sin or shadow and this is all conjecture. They will kill you in 3 seconds and if you pop your "pvp trinket" ability you might escape or counter. Frankly, the ignorant from your post proves how little you know of sins. Thanks for playing though.

 

The only reason people aren't crying about assassins/shadows on this board is there is no combat log. If they knew the burst they were chaining together out of stealth, people would be crying nerfs for them as well.

 

Again only while fully buffed, adrenal, relic. Otherwise maul doesnt hit as much as you think it does. Assuming you spike, maul, discharge x5, shock, shock we can probably kill someone there. Its not really consistent like an ops.

 

The fastest I have ever died has not been to a operative. It has been to an assassin who had procs.

 

Yeh. Procs. Adrenals. Relics.

[longgrassgrows]

It also doesn't knock people down a good portion of the time or makes them warp across the screen due to its buggy nature. Also, it gives you a full resolve bar, and it CAN be trinketed out of.

 

umm it does not give me a full resolve bar...i was able to knockback an op before finishing it and he just cc me again and started where he left off

[DhampirNova]

umm it does not give me a full resolve bar...i was able to knockback an op before finishing it and he just cc me again and started where he left off

 

It does give you a full resolve bar. Speaking as an operative who frequently hidden strikes people, their resolve bar goes full the moment I hit them.

[Orkayl]

Stealth classes that rely on combos, positioning, and potentially consumables/trinkets/cooldowns to reach their full potential are typically considered 'hard to master'.

 

The problem with balancing 'hard to master' classes is that bad players can't get it right and think their class is underpowered; good players get it right and it's overpowered.

 

That being said, yes, ops/scoundrels are very overpowered due to a few key reasons beat to death on these forums.

 

Rogues were the same way for a long time in that other game and the necessary nerfs/class restructuring came years later because there were so many people who failed at playing the class to it's potential that the metrics looked relatively balanced.

 

I pray every day that these devs can see past that.

[Coolcutter]

There is currently no way to counter this either. The knockdown opener they do cannot be trinketed out of. You just get to take it until it gets under control.

 

My level 50 sniper in pvp gear still gets whacked down to 1/3 hp in 3 seconds. Nothing you can do.

 

stop lying, the knockdown can be broken and when it is you have a full resolve bar for a good 12 seconds

 

proof:

[YpaWinz]

Stealth classes that rely on combos, positioning, and potentially consumables/trinkets/cooldowns to reach their full potential are typically considered 'hard to master'.

 

The problem with balancing 'hard to master' classes is that bad players can't get it right and think their class is underpowered; good players get it right and it's overpowered.

 

That being said, yes, ops/scoundrels are very overpowered due to a few key reasons beat to death on these forums.

 

Rogues were the same way for a long time in that other game and the necessary nerfs/class restructuring came years later because there were so many people who failed at playing the class to it's potential that the metrics looked relatively balanced.

 

I pray every day that these devs can see past that.

 

How do we know that operatives don't just appear to be OP because there are so many others who fail at playing their classes?

Edited January 11, 2012 by YpaWinz