I'm scratching my head at some of these "Light" choices

[WhoDaresWins]

I think the Light v Dark options are selected on a "spur of the moment" rather than long-term reprocussions.

 

Black Talon spoiler:

 

 

Capture The General (Light Side): Have him hauled away to be horrifically tortured for being a traitor and to find out what the Republic knows and will end up being executed (likely in a similarly painful fashion) anyway. Even HE points out this is going to happen when you pick it.

 

Kill The General (Dark Side): Yes, you kill him but it's clean and quick.

 

 

Again, it's a more spur of the moment thing in my opinion. I think they also just assumed a lot of the people would just select all the 'Kill Him' options becuz dey r so evul lol and thus decided to reward that. A Paragon/Renegade system would have made much more sense but obviously they needed to cram in the obligatory Light/Dark Side in there somehow.

[OddballEasyEight]

Right, i only read the first three pages of this thread, so i dont know if this has been brushed upon already but here goes.

 

The light side/ dark side choices are not based on OUR morals or values.

Its down to the basic principles of freedom of choice and sanctity of life.

 

More or less its that everyone is allowed to do what they want as long as they dont hurt others, and every life is sacred (ie. killing one to save thousands is still wrong, since killing in and of itself is wrong).

 

most of the choices boil down to that.

 

 

 

 

The case of the dancer wanting to leave her husband: free will.

The case of the "kill bad guy to save thousands": sanctity of life.

The case of the black talon defector: sanctity of life. YOU didnt kill him, it doesnt matter if others will later, you will just have to hope he doesnt die in custody.

The case of give the medicine to the refugees is slightly more ambigous but boils down to who needs the medicine most. Both sides will suffer without it, but the military will always be able to get new supplies, the refugees wont.

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way: Some hindu monks consider life so sacred that they go to extraordinary lengths to make sure they kill no living thing (including small insects that they might accidentaly step on). These monks would never choose to kill one person to stop him from killing thousands or even millions, because his life is just a sacred as those he is about to kill.

Hence killing him is just as wrong as him killing millions.

 

Now, staying true lightside is not what we would call morally right, it would probarbly be called naive and even callous at times.

 

So if you want to play a true lightside person, you will have to be a bit of a knob.

 

But even jedi are not true lightside at all times. They kill people when they have to for example. They also follow the republics will even if that is against their believes sometimes (the genocide of the sith after the hyperspace wars comes to mind).

 

But some of the Ls/Ds choices in the game go starkly against these principles, the first that comes to mind is:

 

 

The young jedi couple that are together against the will of the jedi council. If you turn them in you get lightside points, but the freedom of choice shold make that a dark side choice. HOWEVER, since you are a jedi, it is also against the jedi code. So in my eyes, that particular choice should be reversed so that if you dont turn them in you get light side points but break the jedi code, and turning them in keeps you in the jedi code, but gives you dark side points. I cant help but think that Lucas Arts had a finger in this choice.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2012 by OddballEasyEight

[DarthSojourn]

(Spoilers)

 

So I'm on alderaan and went into the mine to save the people from the Kiliks

but the daughter has been mind ****** and wants to stay. Now the Dark Side option involves saving her against her "will" but the Light Side option is to leave her.

 

 

*** is this? How can it be free will if she was captured and brainwashed AGAINST her will? I used to be massive star wars nerd, I read that novel series with the Kiliks, so I know they're not just misunderstood kittens. Theres a reason why they're hunted and violently kept in check by the humans and later the Chiss.

 

 

Anyway, just a little rant about something that really broke the camel's back for me on the whole light/dark side choices.

 

 

edit: lol whoops

 

I just did this quest and it certainly made me raise an eyebrow.

 

I'm darkside so my choice is obvious. But it could be perceived as lightside depending on how you looked at it...

 

Some of the choices in this game are just weird or don't make any sense.

 

To me anyway.

[Skydive]

Considering the Jedi are (as I always understood it) supposed to approach situations/problems in a calm and objective manner there are an absurd number of LS solutions that are foolish and outright destructive in the long term that could only be driven by mindless sentimentality.

 

I guess the philosophical insights of parasitic micro-organisms leave a little to be desired.

 

And for this.. I blame George.

[Intarabus]

When I received Light Side points for telling a husband that his wife/mate would rather be a stripper than his wife/mate, and that he needed to leave her alone to "live her own life", I actually had to pause for a minute and ponder what I had just seen. The writer of this quest clearly did not understand the concept of saving people from themselves, nor the sanctity of marriage vows (whether alien or not).

 

Yeah, that was an absurd one, want to add that she adresses her wish you would do her also. But here I said, ok, maybe this is some creepy stalker guy - not impossible.

 

But the most puzzling to me:

Lying to an officer in an battered outpost in the middle of nowhere surrounded by monsters about his lost platoon who chose to sneak away just because they could not stand the heat - light side...

[Ranadiel_Marius]

But the most puzzling to me:

Lying to an officer in an battered outpost in the middle of nowhere surrounded by monsters about his lost platoon who chose to sneak away just because they could not stand the heat - light side...

 

As I recall, for that quest the LS/DS points come from the decision of whether to let the soldiers, who are practically being forced against their will into a death trap, go or to force them to return to camp. Afterwards you are completely free to tell the officer that his soldiers couldn't take it and have left because of him forcing them beyond their tour length.

[JawaJedi]

What does that even mean?

 

It means your using no reason.

But being a cold calculating "this is better, because you'll have better living conditions" is using no emotion, and is just as bad, its not the Jedi way.

The Jedi code is a bit misleading, but listen to another famous Jedi sayings

"Be mindful of your feelings"-its a recognition and acceptance of feelings, but its not say to let them control you. Rather, to know where they lead you.

[Calax]

I think one of the issues is that the Jedi Code always has to be light side. Of course it doesn't help that some of the quests are written so rediculously that you can't help but get frustrated.

 

Like the lovers quest on typhon.

[JonnnyB]

The only reason those refugees aren't dead already is because they were being protected by Republic soldiers.

 

Sorry, but giving the supplies to the soldiers is a better choice. The refugees can't defend themselves, the soldiers can defend themselves and the refugees. Once the soldiers lose the ability to defend the refugees due to manpower shortages they're all going to die.

 

And you also have absolutely no idea when the next shipment is due. You're lightside option is an insane gamble and puts all of Fort Garrick at risk which is grossly irresponsible and incompetent for everyone on Ord Mantell.

 

Who cares if you save a refugees' lives if the next day they're attacked undefended and attack by separatists because the Republic Army no longer had the manpower to adequately protect them?

 

It's the more 'logical' choice but it's still darkside. The military exists to serve and protect civilians - not the other way around.

 

The military is also trained to exist without supplies.. it'll make their lives harder but the refugees are far more screwed w/o supplies than the military.

 

That said, welcome to the world of differing opinions...

[SolxTheUnmaker]

A Republic Trooper/Smuggler can have a relationship.

 

A Jedi Knight/Consular cant have a relationship.

 

So if they are ALL sentient, then the only deciding attribute/difference is the Force . This is so illogical, due to if I cant Force "Kill" them, ill just shoot/stab/beat/bludgeon/run-over/strangle/decapitate/dismember/throw-into-a-volcano/feed-to-a-ravenous-snookie/burn/electrocute/drown/poison them.

 

You give me enough time, i'll find a creative way to end your life without the force.

 

I also like how the:

 

Jedi: Emotionless Robots.

 

Sith: An Emotional Rollercoaster, where the tram has a tendency to fly off the tracks.

 

What the **** happened to self-control, not emotional exile, but the ability to have them and remain sane.

Edited January 9, 2012 by SolxTheUnmaker

[divinedoom]

It's the more 'logical' choice but it's still darkside. The military exists to serve and protect civilians - not the other way around.

 

The military is also trained to exist without supplies.. it'll make their lives harder but the refugees are far more screwed w/o supplies than the military.

 

That said, welcome to the world of differing opinions...

 

except that you know that the military needs these supplies just as much as the refugees and they did buy them so you want to take away what someone buys and give it away to some one else seems a little communist to me.

[Kedan]

Its rather simply, Supplies to the Refugees over the long term saves more lives since the Military having a ton more money can and will get more supplies. Or just get issued more supplies, they have far more resources even on Mantell to work with than the refugees do who have zero.

 

This doesn't hold water based on what we're explicitly told in the quest and implicitly shown in the entire Ord Mantell series of quests.

 

 

The Republic effort on Ord Mantell is constantly shown to be underfunded and undersupplied. Without the medical supplies you deliver, the quest giver explicitly states the soldiers are going to die right now. Yeah, the kid is sick, but he's not dying, and even if he does kick off, his loss won't cause the deaths of countless others the way the loss of soldiers will. Returning the medicine to the Officer isn't just the right thing to do in terms of returning stolen property to a rightful owner, it is also the greater good thing to do because the soldiers are the only thing preventing the rebels from killing all the refugees in the long run.

 

 

Another "Wha?" moment for me on Ord:

 

 

The quest where the parents send me to find their son, who has been kidnapped and brainwashed by the seps. For the life of me I can't figure out why telling a kid, who has been kidnapped and emotionally and physically abused for years by brutal killers, to go back to the mother who loves him and will get him help is the dark side option, while giving him credits and sending him offworld with no help and no supervision is the 'light side' option. In what possible way is unleashing a killer who has suffered years of mental and chemical conditioning, much less cutting a child loose into an unstable galaxy, the right thing to do?

 

 

Edit:

 

My thoughts on Nik and the Tython Padawans:

 

 

All evidence points to Nik viewing Rina(?) as a possession rather than a partner. There is no evidence, save Nik's words, that Rina is in a bad situation. Quite the contrary, when we do find her, she is lucid, reasonable and happy. There are zero thugs in the facility, much less any that appear to be coercing the dancers in any way. The worst that can be said of her is that she lacked the courage to give Nik a proper 'Dear John' letter to forestall his delusions.

 

As for the Padawans on Tython, it isn't actually the idea of Jedi being in love that gets you the dark side points. Late in both Jedi class stories you have the opportunity to engage in a romantic relationship with zero Dark Side points incurred. The reason you get DS points for siding with Spanios and Moracen is because they're unstable. Their relationship is actually detrimental (Maracen threatens you and Spanios bribes you), so by lying to the Masters you are assisting in an unhealthy relationship that will ultimately lead to a fall. You get the DS points for lying, not by agreeing that love can be a positive force.

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kedan

[smartalectwo]

I don't think all Sith are necessarily supposed to choose the Dark Side option all the time, and risk not being true Sith if they don't. Choosing the Dark Side option all the time is definitely choosing actions that strengthen the Dark Side, though.

 

I actually think this system is quite clever. To be a pure white Jedi that follows the Code 100%, you've got to live like a robot, and one misstep marks you. It's worth noting that there's no such thing as a perfect Jedi. And try to follow the path of the Dark Side and it really DOES dominate your destiny if you don't fight it. Being a Sith is all about self-control and commanding the Force, but if you try to corrupt yourself as fast as possible to use the darkest of artifacts, you're letting the Dark Side control you...

[Shonuff]

It's about perspective. There is no Good vs Evil when it comes to the Repbulic and the Empire.

 

It's not about what side of the Faction your on it's about perspective. It all starts with the mission. Typically the mission starts neutral, you dont' know if what your doing is good or bad but it all starts there, your excepting a job and thats all that matters. Somewhere down the mission path you are posed with a conflict of interest that forces you to make a choice; a decision. The question now is, what choice benifits me.

 

 

In this case the conflict of interest was the brainwashed daughter. Earlier you were told that she was kidnapped, this usually means someone is taken by force. Upon arrival you find out that she has excepted the union with the Kiliks and is at peace and is actually distasteful of her old life. She is now happy not distraught the decision is now obvious.

 

Force her to Return - Darkside

Leave her - Lightside

 

At first it does'tn make sense but remember she is at peace, she is not harmed, the idea that the Kiliks were mindless killing machines is a lie. You have a new revelation. But you still have a choice, the choice now has concequences.

 

So it's not a matter what YOU think is right, in this Universe, that girl who gave you the conflict of interest expresses happiness where she is at. She gave reasons that placed her father on the negitive and as the bad guy which puts you on the negitive. Honoring her fathers wish is a Darkside decision because your denying her that feeling of peace. A light side decision would be to leave her...in peace.

 

[Sinemetu]

The two most notable examples I could think of are listed below. The first one is one of the first quests for a female imperial agent where you are confronted by a man, and he's blackmailing you.

 

It's not like that.

 

 

You don't have to sleep with him. The guy is an idiot; all you have to do is flirt a little and tell him how nice he is. When he asks to go somewhere private, you say "maybe another time." Choosing to flirt instead of kill was LS, sleeping with him is just a choice you made.

 

[OddballEasyEight]

Right, i only read the first three pages of this thread, so i dont know if this has been brushed upon already but here goes.

 

The light side/ dark side choices are not based on OUR morals or values.

Its down to the basic principles of freedom of choice and sanctity of life.

 

More or less its that everyone is allowed to do what they want as long as they dont hurt others, and every life is sacred (ie. killing one to save thousands is still wrong, since killing in and of itself is wrong).

 

most of the choices boil down to that.

 

 

 

 

The case of the dancer wanting to leave her husband: free will.

The case of the "kill bad guy to save thousands": sanctity of life.

The case of the black talon defector: sanctity of life. YOU didnt kill him, it doesnt matter if others will later, you will just have to hope he doesnt die in custody.

The case of give the medicine to the refugees is slightly more ambigous but boils down to who needs the medicine most. Both sides will suffer without it, but the military will always be able to get new supplies, the refugees wont.

 

 

 

 

Look at it this way: Some hindu monks consider life so sacred that they go to extraordinary lengths to make sure they kill no living thing (including small insects that they might accidentaly step on). These monks would never choose to kill one person to stop him from killing thousands or even millions, because his life is just a sacred as those he is about to kill.

Hence killing him is just as wrong as him killing millions.

 

Now, staying true lightside is not what we would call morally right, it would probarbly be called naive and even callous at times.

 

So if you want to play a true lightside person, you will have to be a bit of a knob.

 

But even jedi are not true lightside at all times. They kill people when they have to for example. They also follow the republics will even if that is against their believes sometimes (the genocide of the sith after the hyperspace wars comes to mind).

 

But some of the Ls/Ds choices in the game go starkly against these principles, the first that comes to mind is:

 

 

The young jedi couple that are together against the will of the jedi council. If you turn them in you get lightside points, but the freedom of choice shold make that a dark side choice. HOWEVER, since you are a jedi, it is also against the jedi code. So in my eyes, that particular choice should be reversed so that if you dont turn them in you get light side points but break the jedi code, and turning them in keeps you in the jedi code, but gives you dark side points. I cant help but think that Lucas Arts had a finger in this choice.

 

 

Since everyone seems to either have ignored my post or missed it completely ill just quote myself here.

 

This is the main reason why people get confused. Its not about "good" or "evil" from a judeo-christian point of view.

Its about freedom of will and sanctity of life.

[Karkais]

But some of the Ls/Ds choices in the game go starkly against these principles, the first that comes to mind is:

 

 

The young jedi couple that are together against the will of the jedi council. If you turn them in you get lightside points, but the freedom of choice shold make that a dark side choice. HOWEVER, since you are a jedi, it is also against the jedi code. So in my eyes, that particular choice should be reversed so that if you dont turn them in you get light side points but break the jedi code, and turning them in keeps you in the jedi code, but gives you dark side points. I cant help but think that Lucas Arts had a finger in this choice.

 

 

Are you implying that the jedi council doesn't know what the right, lightside, choice is? I haven't done this particular quest (busy on dark side muhahaa) but in my opinion it shouldnt be a big surprise if going against the will of the council is a darkside choice. In terms of logic, I also don't see anything wrong in the choices as you described them.

 

I havent done the quest like I said but I think you are confused about what its about in terms of light/dark.

hint if I understand the quest correctly:

 

Giving in to your emotions is bad.

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by Karkais

[Thazakh]

I never look at what gives light/dark (yes I like Rp'ing a bit), just use 1,2,3 so I don't see what gives light and dark. So far my light/dark ratio is about 4:1. Not to worried about it. It'can't be gamebreaking to not be fully dark/light (I'll end up light eventually though I think). And if it is, just do BT at lvl 50 a dozen times (takes about what... 10 mins) ^^,

 

My 2 cents

[OddballEasyEight]

Are you implying that the jedi council doesn't know what the right, lightside, choice is? I haven't done this particular quest (busy on dark side muhahaa) but in my opinion it shouldnt be a big surprise if going against the will of the council is a darkside choice. In terms of logic, I also don't see anything wrong in the choices as you described them.

 

I havent done the quest like I said but I think you are confused about what its about in terms of light/dark.

hint if I understand the quest correctly:

 

Giving in to your emotions is bad.

 

no no, im just saying that most lightside/darkside choices follow the premise of freedom of choice (ie. dont force anyone to do anything they dont want to, even if they happen to be out of their mind at the time) and sanctity of life (ie. dont kill anyone. Even if that person is trying to kill millions).

These go in constast to the jedi code some times, for example a jedi would be hard pressed to allow someone to kill millions of people even if that meant they had to kill that person.

 

BUT, the Ls/Ds choices dont always follow that premiss, especially the jedi Ls/Ds choices, since they seem to be held to a different standard. As in that example where if you go for the "free will" choice, you break the jedi code, and hence you get dark side points.

Personally, i dont think there should be any Ls/Ds points in that quest since YOU are not breaking the code, and YOU are not giving into your emotions either way.

[Zandilar]

The thing with the medical supplies on Ord Mantell, that someone else brought up in the thread earlier, and which I think should be reiterated is that it's drummed into your head over and over again that the military on Ord Mantell are corrupt. The Cathar woman (forget her name, sorry) tells you that the troops have been abusing the refugees (pushing them around, bullying them, extorting stuff out of them). Later on, you see some of the military have set up an obstacle course in the middle of a mine field, and when you go tell the Ethics officer (who is drinking in the cantina, and implied by the troops to be a drunkard) - he tells you that's been shut down, and seems depressed and exasperated that they've started it up again. And also, there's that woman (an alleged separatist sympathizer) who was kidnapped from her home, and when you go to see what the soldiers have done with her, you find them beating her.

 

(I think the writers were trying to tell us the military on Ord Mantell were corrupt, don't you?)

 

There is no guarantee that the medical supplies will end up in the right hands if you give them to the military. I made the decision to give them to the refugees the first time (with a Trooper character in beta) just on the weight of the misbehaviour of the soldiers up to that point. They really weren't sterling examples of Republic Military.

[Sinemetu]

Are you implying that the jedi council doesn't know what the right, lightside, choice is? I haven't done this particular quest (busy on dark side muhahaa) but in my opinion it shouldnt be a big surprise if going against the will of the council is a darkside choice. In terms of logic, I also don't see anything wrong in the choices as you described them.

 

I havent done the quest like I said but I think you are confused about what its about in terms of light/dark.

hint if I understand the quest correctly:

 

Giving in to your emotions is bad.

 

Well, the reason that one is...

DS is because of the extortion involved. Plus, that couple was too dumb to live. It wasn't a case of a reasonable couple who fell in love with each other, it's two idiots.

 

 

(I think the writers were trying to tell us the military on Ord Mantell were corrupt, don't you?)

 

I think the writers either don't care for the military or don't know anything about it or both. I'm a former marine, and I can't stand most of the dialogue options. Playing as an IA, I often got a "professional" reasonable option. As trooper the choices are between motard gung-ho, or childish arrogance, or apathy/greed.

 

That and all the little things like calling a sergeant "sir" (a sergeant gets called "sergeant." imagine!), promoting a sergeant to a lieutenant (they're on totally different promotion paths. lieutenants are officers, sergeants get promoted to staff, technical, gunnery, or master sergeants--etc). The idea that a squad would have a captain or lieutenant or any officer in charge instead of a corporal or sergeant.

 

I could go on... but I'll end my rant.

[Kheldras]

Return medical supplies to refugees who stole them from the military who protects them + 50 LS

 

Give medical supplies back to under-funded military, which is explicitly stated will save lives + 50 DS

 

 

I get how giving them to orphans is a light side type thing, but returning the needed supplies to a military facing an insurgency and active operations is dark side? This wasn't a corrupt office, and you weren't being bribed.

 

Weak.

 

Yeah, that got me scratching my head too. It might fit for the Smugglers, but as Trooper...saving the lives of my comrades is bad?

[Stingray]

This is my theory about Light / dark aligment for each faction:

 

Both Light-sided Sith and Dark-sided Jedi are the "Renegades" within their respective faction.

 

Neutral sith and jedi are the "common denominator"

 

Both Dark-sided Sith and Light-sided Jedi are the "Paragons" within their respective faction.

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Karast]

What gets me is how similar choice can get light or dark parts. If I choose to use missiles to blow up empire ships I get darkside points, if I have a pirate fleet attack empire ships I get light side points? I mean seriously what is the difference?

[Kesh_]

I suspect we're talking about Nik here. That guy had little to no respect for his mate, treating her like property. He even refers to her as his "favorite possession". I don't know about you but if I'd been a woman I'd sure want to get the **** out of a marriage/relationship like that. In this case I completely agree with the writer that lying to that scumbag was the right thing to do.

 

 

 

If you talked further with her, she was just bored with him because he never wanted to let her go out and party because he was too jealous. So now she can strip and sleep with strange aliens for money. But yeah, i lied to him and said she died to be kinder to him and got darkside points because it is so much nicer to tell him his wife loves being a whore with all the strange aliens on coruscant and even promised me a good time in a letter later on.

 

 

But yeah, my bounty hunter intentionally was made to be the worst bounty hunter in existence that everyone praises as the besta s no one EVER finds out that you let all your targets go free with a stern order to go off planet or run away somewhere (5000 light, 0 dark). Would love to see some real repercussions, like my employers finding out I let all these targets get away and theya start sending bounty hunters after me.