Kitru Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As a Kinetic Shadow, I can say that I *hate* the delay in Project occurring. Particle Acceleration takes effect when the Project rock *hits* not when I use Project which means that, if I'm close to losing the PA buff (common enough for it to be an issue considering the Force cost of Project coupled with needing to maintain debuffs), even if I *use* Project while the buff is active, it won't benefit from it because the buff faded before the rock hit. Essentially, Shadows have a .6 second shorter duration on PA than Assassins have on Energize. Also, to those who are arguing that a Project in the air will kill a target even if you die, it's not true. If you die, any effects you have that are "in limbo" are immediately cancelled, meaning that, even if you get your Project off earlier, an Assassin that uses Shock within .6 seconds of you using Project will kill you without getting hit by your Project, even if you used yours earlier. Those who are continually arguing that it's a *benefit* to have the delayed Project, you're right, to some extent. It *is* nice to be able to delay the Project to load damage into a smaller window, but, weighed against all of the other penalties for this, it's a *net loss*. There is some minor strategic benefit, but there are a *load* of major complications associated with it. Personally, I would be perfectly happy to lose the minor strategic benefit if it meant that I didn't have to deal with all of the other major problems with the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddmyth Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Most shadow's haven't cared because we are happy with doing more burst dmg in less time. The cases you made up to support your argument are convoluted. There's usually far more interaction between several classes in group pvp. The reason many of us like the way Project works now is because it frontloads the dmg into the next GCD, making it much harder to heal through and putting your opponent into a heal deficit faster. With Shock the damage comes at regular intervals and is more easily healed through using less resources to do so. With Project the damage is bursty because it's not happening on a GCD, its happening 0.7s before the next GCD. Since its so bursty this also causes problems for multitasking healers, missing a single GCD of healing against a Shadow can mean certain death. Not so much the other way around. So yes, Project has problems when you are trying to finish a target from range, but you also have many other ranged tools with similar ranges and similar CD's. Once you are serious about PVP, running with healers and peeling properly you will realize that its burst damage that kills and that Project the way it is, is a serious threat in PVP. The advantages of Shock's instant cast aren't special in all but a few edge cases, which can be ruled out by using other abilities other than Project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likewater Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 It's not so much as the developers favored the sith, as mush as the sith were easier to translate into an MMORPG. specificly the visual style. The consulars the developers clarely struggled and total failed to merge gamer-style with starwars/EU style. Jedi in Star Wars (Especaily the expanded universe where most of this stuff comes from) usually hit you with the force directly. Yes they do occasionaly chuck crap at you. But if they are going to whack you with the force, they just wack you with the force. The Dathmori force-witches, on the other hand do use tricks like that because its their cultural style, when they arn't straight warriors. The is a non leathal version of force lighting some jedi occasionaly use, and yes it is green. And jedi never put on that whitemage crap counsulars get as gear. The Jedi "robes" are uniforms like in StarFleet, they arnt suppose to be visually distinct from the other jedi. yes Corellian jedi prefer green robes, and most post Original Trilogy Jedi have whatever wardrobe they want. Jedi Robes com in black, gray, dark-blue, and brown beyond that there is very little variation. If you look at Knights of the Old Rpublic Comic book only Lucen and Krynda Draay and maybe Atrirs have outfits anything close to what they have in the game. And what they have in comparison is understated. The developers, I believe tried to satisfy both styles and ended up creating something that satified no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddmyth Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Particle Acceleration takes effect when the Project rock *hits* not when I use Project which means that, if I'm close to losing the PA buff (common enough for it to be an issue considering the Force cost of Project coupled with needing to maintain debuffs), even if I *use* Project while the buff is active, it won't benefit from it because the buff faded before the rock hit. Essentially, Shadows have a .6 second shorter duration on PA than Assassins have on Energize. That should be fixed. The rest I would prefer to stay the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstralFire Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm fairly certain that Project's longer animation gives it a higher failure rate with the ability delay bug too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardya Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Also, wouldn't abilities like resilience, guard, heal etc get more time to activate? I certainly don't know all the other class abilities, barely know my own. .7 seconds is a pretty significant amount of time. I am not entirely convinced it's not just an animation thing though. Edited January 4, 2012 by richardya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saacius Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I leveled an assassin to 45 in beta, but when I made my shadow the first thing I noticed was the difference between project and shock. Hope they speed up the animation or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The cast delay on Project certainly blowz... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theMeldo Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) the should just change the animation so the rock is thrown at the target immediately instead of being lifted or change the name and animation entirely to something different Edited January 4, 2012 by theMeldo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtydurst Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I support this. The delay on project is a huge advantage for Shadows as you can do major burst damage with project/breach. Especially if you have upheaval also = 2 rocks in the face as well as a force breach. It aches me every time I see shadows complaining about this since it seems to me they don't realize how much of an advantage it is for us. An advantage that might soon be gone because we are complaining about it ourselves... It's unbalanced for sure but please stop asking for a fix because, believe me it, will be a nerf. Prepare to see your kill rate go down if your "wish" comes true... lol. Do you people really think changing this will make your kill rate go down? Get real nubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmilitia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ok how fast do you think it would take to fire a bolt of lighting from your hand? ok how fast can you rip rocks out of the ground and hurl them at people. yup lighting is faster it's physics, if you don't like the fact that your class hurls bolders then go back to wow and play a mage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 yup lighting is faster it's physics First off, you could, according to physics, hurl a boulder at the same velocity that you hurl a boulder and, in fact, because the boulder moving at such a speed would have much greater momentum, would cause way more damage (re: explode a planet). Secondly, we're not dealing in the real world. We're dealing in a fantasy world. Since you can't hurl lightning with your bare hands in real life, the argument that real world physics as it applies to telekinesis and electrokinesis don't really apply. Thirdly, since this is a game and the classes are intended to be mirrors, equivalence is of very substantial importance. The only differences in performance are supposed to be aesthetic. Since Shock is, on average, substantially better due to the lack of delay compared to Project, it needs to be remedied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tufy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Imagine if you and the Sith Assassin are both EXACTLY evenly matched and both of you can only use this skill only without using anything else. In this case, random crits and damage rolls will be FAR more important than the difference between Shock and Project (and if they both use it, they'll both die ). The main difference between both spells is in mass combat where a healer's heal will land before Project but after the Shock would hit. It's an annoying difference, but one that has only minor impact in the greater scale of things. Still, unfair is unfair, same as some Agent vs. Smuggler cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmilitia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 First off, you could, according to physics, hurl a boulder at the same velocity that you hurl a boulder and, in fact, because the boulder moving at such a speed would have much greater momentum, would cause way more damage (re: explode a planet).. true so lets talk about the damg that project does not the delay Secondly, we're not dealing in the real world. We're dealing in a fantasy world. Since you can't hurl lightning with your bare hands in real life, the argument that real world physics as it applies to telekinesis and electrokinesis don't really apply. who said anything about real world, i'm sure that in game physics lighting is faster then rocks. Thirdly, since this is a game and the classes are intended to be mirrors, equivalence is of very substantial importance. The only differences in performance are supposed to be aesthetic. Since Shock is, on average, substantially better due to the lack of delay compared to Project, it needs to be remedied. yes classes are supposed to be mirrior but are you supossed to have the exact same fight sequences????? why are you casting project at the same time as they cast lighting? i'll be back with more to retort this in a bit when i determin an inqus rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmilitia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) ok back after taking 10 mins of looking at the lighting tree, lighting is their opener you as a shadow should never open with a project as balance you open with force in blanace to increase dots, then you roll dots and project to up your melee and finsh them with melee. oh and force in balance has a .1 delay just like lighting as inq you open with knock down chuck norris round house and clair which mean you have them down to 60% HP before they even cast. Edited January 4, 2012 by madmilitia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tytra Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hi all I just wrote a post under the consular forums about this. As stated if you want to really flip a lid, instead of shock/project look into mind crush/crushing darkness. Have fun with the jedis 2 second 2 finger animation after casting. Yes you cant do anything during that time, so basically you stunned yourself. Assassin doesnt have an after skill animation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tytra Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ok back after taking 10 mins of looking at the lighting tree, lighting is their opener you as a shadow should never open with a project as balance you open with force in blanace to increase dots, then you roll dots and project to up your melee and finsh them with melee. oh and force in balance has a .1 delay just like lighting as inq you open with knock down chuck norris round house and clair which mean you have them down to 60% HP before they even cast. Although this is all true ppl need to realize that both classes have the same skills. Only difference is animation time, plain and simple. Death field is the exact same as force in balance. We are just talking animation time. I tell you when I play my assassin I seriously forgot how quick theres are and usually have to pause for a sec and say oh crap I have time to use another skill now. Im used to over compensating on my jedi ;/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmilitia Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Hi all I just wrote a post under the consular forums about this. As stated if you want to really flip a lid, instead of shock/project look into mind crush/crushing darkness. Have fun with the jedis 2 second 2 finger animation after casting. Yes you cant do anything during that time, so basically you stunned yourself. Assassin doesnt have an after skill animation mind crush is only meant to be used when you proc instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawconis Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 ok back after taking 10 mins of looking at the lighting tree, lighting is their opener you as a shadow should never open with a project as balance you open with force in blanace to increase dots, then you roll dots and project to up your melee and finsh them with melee. oh and force in balance has a .1 delay just like lighting as inq you open with knock down chuck norris round house and clair which mean you have them down to 60% HP before they even cast. uh..no? The classes are the exact same. Animations are the only difference, and what a big difference they are. Its a huge problem for others too: Sorcerers > Sages Assassins > Shadows Bounty Hunters > Troopers. There may even be more that have animation issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawconis Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) In addtion, the problem is even worse when coupled with Shadow's Upheavel vs. Assassin's Chain Shock. The proc initiates after the dmg hits... OUCH, thats a big loss!!! Edit: So now its two rocks flying w/ a .8 difference = 1.6 seconds of dmg. That's more than the difference between 1st and 14th place in many competitions. Edited January 4, 2012 by Lawconis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ok back after taking 10 mins of looking at the lighting tree, lighting is their opener you as a shadow should never open with a project You obviously have no clue what you're talking about. No Assassin/Shadow spec is going to open with Project or Shock. It's simply asinine. For Darkness/Kinetic, you wait until Double Strike procs Energize/Particle Acceleration. For Deception/Infiltration, you wait until you have 2 stacks of Induction/Circling Shadows. For Madness/Balance, you open with Death Field/Force in Balance and only use Shock/Project after your DoTs have been placed to get and maintain the 10% melee bonus damage. The two classes are designed as mirrors. If you don't believe me, you're living in a fantasy land. All of the attacks across mirror classes with mirror specs deal the same amount of damage and deal the same *types* of damage (internal to elemental and energy to kinetic are the only variances, but, in effect, the linked damage types are entirely the same since they are resisted identically). The talent trees are identical with palette swaps and name changes. The mirror classes *are designed to be mirrored*. The only differences are in animation (Shock is faster, Project is delayed) and in a single companion required abilities (Sacrifice as opposed to Unity) and, since companions are pretty much only present while soloing and question, the differences provided by those abilities are designed to be thematically different but largely equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawconis Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Yoda was wrong, the Dark Side is stronger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kckkryptonite Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 yoda was wrong, the dark side is stronger... qft ----------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawconis Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 /bump for recognition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthPegleg Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Its not a channel its an activation, ie: cant be pushed backed or interrupted and can still be used on the move its also not longer than the global cooldown, so im not entirely sure what the issue is the issue is that when you try to finish someone off with it they can get healed since theres a delay on 1 sec while in the opposite situation they would killed me b4 i got that heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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