The Expertise stat has to go...

[longakerne]

This makes no sense.. raiders get their gear from raiding (if all they want to do is raid), if they want to pvp as well then they are in the same boat as the rest of us. I am not sure how the pvp gear is for raiding but there is an outside chance that if raiders wanted to be top tier in both raiding and pvp then they will have to grind out 2 sets of gear.

 

I kind of agree with the OP, there is no need for a pvp only stat. They only thing that is needed is for top end pvp gear to = raid gear. The reason wow added resilience is because people decked out in top end raid gear were blowing people up in pvp, if wow had just made the top end pvp gear = top end raid gear then both side would have been happy (you get your gear your way and I will get mine my way ).

 

The reason raid gear does not equal pvp gear is because players ARE actually meant to get better at what they do and use teamwork (it is an MMORPG, anyway) to get the best rewards. If PvPers grinded through battlezones to get raid equivalent gear and jumped into a raid knowing nothing about PvE, they'd be turned around back to what they know best, PVP. The same goes for PvE players.

 

The stat makes a player choose between PvP and PvE and hardcore players may choose both, but you can't ignore the fact that PvP and PvE have very different playstyles.

[CapuchinSeven]

Bad thing is people would gripe about being on an even playing field in PVP and no longer having their win button vs half the population. How sad is that?

 

This is the single and only reason why people really want a PVP stat in any MMO. It's a crutch. I don't need a PVP stat and hate knowing that most of my competition will be a three shot kill because of it.

 

To everyone in this thread : Yes. PvP gear has PvP stats. Get over it. WoW has it, resilience. Every game , every mmorpg has special stats on PvP gear.

 

No they don't.

OH and the ones that did, had rapidly dying PVP aspects, Rift, WoW, Aion, the list goes on.

 

I think some of you are playing the wrong genre. Go play online FPS games if you want equal gear. This is MMO, where the best gear is hard to get and not everyone has it.

 

*WOOOOOOSH*, that's the point going over your head.

 

First im sick of people making these things crying about stuff! That said the stats make since why should i spend all my time doing pvp and get the gear from it so i can run into some guy with pve gear and b the same he has gear made for pve that he does and i have my gear for pvp that i do? how is this so confusing to people?

 

IF PVP gear and PVE gear were exactly the same, but the PVE gear had a special PVE stat which boosted damage and resilience in Flashpoints/Operations only, then you would beat them with your superior PVP skills because you're a PVPer and not a PVEer coming to play with the big boys.

 

A PVP stat is a crutch for bad PVPers who THINK they are hardcore PVPers.

 

I find it comical when so called PVPers complain that "i r don't want teh pvers beating me in pvp". If the PVP and PVE gear are identical, bar a PVE sat that works in PVE raids only, then you're winning with skill and team play, THAT'S what PVP is meant to be about.

Edited January 9, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Kentiah]

The sad thing is 40 some odd pages (that I'm not reading all of) and I still haven't seen the actual answer for PvP stats.

 

It's because players are going to *********** two shot each other, and if you remotely think that's anything near skill based you're sorely mistaken, and probably pretty bad at PvP as it is, that's why it was added in WoW after vanilla when they moved towards a more competitive PvP system. (Also, saw someone say the PvP in wow is "dying" yeah, nah, but you can keep thinking that).

 

Actually, the very fact that 99% of you don't even realize this more or less confirms how bad you are. That's why any game worth it's salt HAS a PvP stat to reduce damage and allow for actual skill based opportunities to happen.

 

Could they just make each ability have a secondary damage amount for PvP? Sure. However that's a lot more work than just adding a PvP stat, and the worst part is it seems the dominant "argument" (if you can call it that) is that the PvP stat somehow increases a players entry barrier into PvP. Guess what, if some kid comes in a fresh 50 in his ****** gear he's going to get wrecked regardless. Either way, that person has a gear barrier they have to get past.

 

And guess what? Coming in PvE gear, you're going to see wasted item stats on PvE only stats that are just being wasted in PvP regardless.

 

Also, the amount of misinformation about WoW in here is staggering, I understand it's the "hip" thing to do to knock on a superior game to make yourself feel better about playing this one, but at least get your facts straight kids.

 

I play both, deal with it.

 

Stop crying, farm your gear like everyone else, and play the damn game. Stop crying about getting wrecked because someone put more time into an aspect of the game and has stuff to show for it.

[CapuchinSeven]

(Also, saw someone say the PvP in wow is "dying" yeah, nah, but you can keep thinking that).

 

Blizzard confirmed that new PVP uptake is very slow which leaves only the current players, same happened in Rift only Rift suffered more because it was newer with a smaller user base. So yeah you keep on thinking what you're thinking.

 

Actually, the very fact that 99% of you don't even realize this more or less confirms how bad you are. That's why any game worth it's salt HAS a PvP stat to reduce damage and allow for actual skill based opportunities to happen.

 

er, what?

[Kentiah]

Blizzard confirmed that new PVP uptake is very slow which leaves only the current players, same happened in Rift only Rift suffered more because it was newer with a smaller user base. So yeah you keep on thinking what you're thinking.

 

I fail to see how that correlates to "dying". A game with a huge already established player base is seeing less new players in PvP? No way!? The game is still avidly played competitively in tournaments and such. The PvP is not "dying". It takes all of three or four days to farm a full set. And that's not hardcore playing either. If a player can't farm a set of gear that easy to get they're not going anywhere in PvE either, sorry. The biggest "barrier" would be them actually learning skill based things such as proper positioning in arena, and not tunneling targets like idiots, proper CC chains, surviving, LoSing, etc etc.

 

 

 

er, what?

 

People don't know the retardedly obvious reason for PvP stats, which means they have a very bad grasp of game mechanics in general. This equates to being bad.

[BDutch]

Blizzard confirmed that new PVP uptake is very slow which leaves only the current players, same happened in Rift only Rift suffered more because it was newer with a smaller user base. So yeah you keep on thinking what you're thinking.

 

Yeah this is pretty much the only thing I care about. I can work with any system so long as I don't end up just fighting the same few teams over and over. Some people really don't seem to understand how important it is to encourage new players to PvP rather than discourage them.

[BDutch]

I fail to see how that correlates to "dying". A game with a huge already established player base is seeing less new players in PvP? No way!?

The number of teams registered decreased disproportionately to the general population decrease.

 

The game is still avidly played competitively in tournaments and such.

Funny thing to mention, considering tournament servers gave everyone the same gear.

 

The PvP is not "dying". It takes all of three or four days to farm a full set. And that's not hardcore playing either. If a player can't farm a set of gear that easy to get they're not going anywhere in PvE either, sorry.

That's a good point, but if it's so trivial then why bother having it?

 

The biggest "barrier" would be them actually learning skill based things such as proper positioning in arena, and not tunneling targets like idiots, proper CC chains, surviving, LoSing, etc etc.

There are good players, there are bad players, but there are definitely players that are simply hindered by math. Don't flatter yourself.

 

People don't know the retardedly obvious reason for PvP stats, which means they have a very bad grasp of game mechanics in general. This equates to being bad.

I think the only "retardedly obvious" reason is because WoW and Rift did it. SWTOR didn't start out with 1 year of 5% of the population doing PvE raiding that gave them the best items in the game for PvP. They had a clean slate that didn't need to compensate for this.

[CapuchinSeven]

I fail to see how that correlates to "dying".

 

Stagnation. New players are the life blood of PVP.

 

People don't know the retardedly obvious reason for PvP stats, which means they have a very bad grasp of game mechanics in general. This equates to being bad.

 

Needing a PVP stat that means I can 3 shot someone during a stun because I have PVP gear and they don't, equates to being bad. When PVP and PVE gear have exactly the same stats then skill and team work, you know those things that are meant to make a PVP player better than a PVE player, is what makes you good.

 

What you're describing is a crutch to prop up bad PVP players so they can't (literally can't) be beaten by a new player because modern PVP players like you think "skill" equals amount of timed grinded.

 

You need to justify your crutch stat, I don't. I'd throw off my PVP gear and fight on an even foot tomorrow if Bioware woke up to that.

Edited January 9, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Kentiah]

Funny thing to mention, considering tournament servers gave everyone the same gear.

 

I was actually referring to third party actual tournaments, not blizzards PvP tournament realms, however I have no issue with people having the gear, I haven't said anything to that effect once short of stop crying about it and just farm it. The argument of this entire thread is about removing expertise, expertise is a needed stat, because, again, people are going to two shot each other, and there's very little skill in who crits first.

 

 

That's a good point, but if it's so trivial then why bother having it?[/Quote]

Blizzard is putting in some passive resil in their next expansion, there will still be PvP gear but the entry barrier gear wise will be lower, again, which is fine. The argument of this thread, is AGAIN, removing the PvP stat that makes it not a **** show.

 

 

There are good players, there are bad players, but there are definitely players that are simply hindered by math. Don't flatter yourself.[/Quote] I have no idea what you're getting at here, people can't figure out how to spend marks on gear? Anyways, onto something not retarded...

 

 

I think the only "retardedly obvious" reason is because WoW and Rift did it. SWTOR didn't start out with 1 year of 5% of the population doing PvE raiding that gave them the best items in the game for PvP. They had a clean slate that didn't need to compensate for this.

No, but they have the biggest MMO ever seen on the market as a direct competitor and they know what works and what doesn't work. And unfortunately they're failing at a lot of things not taking a lot of what does work well. But that's an entirely different thread.

 

Needing a PVP stat that means I can 3 shot someone during a stun because I have PVP gear and they don't, equates to being bad. When blah blah blah...

The sad part is that you apparently don't even know what the stat you're arguing about does. Damage reduction. Look into that, as said MULTIPLE times, people would run around two shotting each other without some type of player specific damage reduction, which would only get worse with time as more PvE gear comes out furthering peoples damage output making for an even worse game experience.

 

The only thing that needs to change is that the damage buff and the healing buff need to be removed and allow for just damage mitigation, possibly armor pen in place of the damage to compensate for tanks benefiting from it more than any other class vs melees. As it is, it's probably in it's current state and will probably be adjusted down the road when they get around to not being lazy. But the stat needs to stay.

[JustinxDuff]

The bottom line is that end game PvE gear is almost always superior to end game PvP gear. Expertise covers this disparity in gear by preventing those that grind PvE like crazy from coming into a WZ and dominating people. Expertise is there for people who like to PvP, if you don't like expertise then don't PvP.

[Weidekuh]

The sad part is that you apparently don't even know what the stat you're arguing about does. Damage reduction. Look into that, as said MULTIPLE times, people would run around two shotting each other without some type of player specific damage reduction, which would only get worse with time as more PvE gear comes out furthering peoples damage output making for an even worse game experience.

 

Expertise does reduce incoming damage and increase your damage in pvp.

 

2 Players with equal gear cancel each other pvp stat out. but since the other offensive stats go higher and higher, 3 shotting might be possible in the future.

 

1 player with high expertise will win every single time vs. someone without expertise. even if he's keyboard turning and one button spamming. maybe even 3 shotting him.

 

so no, expertise doesen't increase survivability against same geared players!

 

taken from Sithwarrior.com

PvP Damage Bonus % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )

PvP Damage Reduction % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )

PvP Trauma Ignore % = 20 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.2 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 0.72 ) )

Edited January 9, 2012 by Weidekuh

[Orangerascal]

2 Players with equal gear cancel each other pvp stat out. but since the other offensive stats go higher and higher, 3 shotting might be possible in the future.

 

Did you not notice endurance also goes up? I'm going to leave the math to bioware and not to the forum mathematicians.

 

Listen up people:

 

The only reason 'Expertise' exists is to prevent raid guilds from trivializing the end game content. No more ... no less, It's not some magic stat bioware created so 'no lifers' can grief you. If expertise did not exists you would still be destroyed by 'no lifers' with raid gear and you would be whining about that instead.

 

Be thankful expertise exists so you can be competitive with raid guilds in pvp. If you wanted to petition for gear equivalence like in GW2 ... do that instead ... that's a whole different thread.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[SWImara]

I don't know that there's much point to this thread other than flames and hostility based in a really old argument at this point but I'll chime in again anyway.

 

It'd be fine not to have PvP gear if this were not a gear focused game. If it was not a standard MMO focused on end game content and raiding etc this would not be necessary. If we all had the same stats and the focus of PvP was player interaction/socialization/competition expertise would be a problem rather than a solution. As is however, SWTOR is not UO, it is not Shadowbane or DAOC or any other game in this flavor. Players are rewarded for their activities with new gear, period, this is the only reward that exists besides a quality story in basically any aspect of gameplay.

 

People arguing for the removal of expertise are not making some noble outcry to help out new 50s, new 50s will not have equivalent raid gear which is what everyone seems to be suggesting for PvP gear. The only people impacted by the removal of expertise gear would be raiders who have always as a community argued that they should have better rewards than any other type of player. I sincerely hope the developers do not cave in to raider demands in SWTOR's PvP scene regardless of what they do in other areas.

 

Your PvE raid grinding gear will always be better than crafted gear, it will always be better than questing gear etc because raiding is apparently the end all be all of PvE. It should not be better than PvP gear for the express purpose of PvPing, period.

[RJMazz]

Why not just make end-PvP gear and raid gear the same. Raiding and getting commendations may even give different kinds of tokens (or the same kind, just balance out the amount given). In the end, you`ll get the same game from both types of game and you can play both PvE and PvP in the end. You can have fun the both types of way.

 

I like both PvEing and PvPing, why can`t I? Why do I need to have 2 sets of gear, one that gives me expertise and the other that gives me whatever makes me more special for PvE?

 

That`s retarded.

[JustinxDuff]

 

Says who? No reason at all why top end PVP gear and top end PVE gear can't be the 100% the same except for a PVE stat which allows higher damage and resistance only in PVE Flashpoints/Operations.

 

Maybe we could call it expertise... Oooooh...

 

OH yes of course, if PVP gear and PVE gear of the same level had the same stats fake PVPers would actually have to use skill and team work rather than "expertise" to win them battles.

 

Expertise is on the wrong type of gear.

 

Have you looked at the gear vendors? Have you killed any OP bosses?

 

Like I said, PvE gear is almost always better than PvP when it comes to end game. If PvE gear happens to be identical without the expertise then sure expertise shouldn't be in the game. If it turns out that end game PvE gear is superior to PvP gear then expertise needs to be in the game.

 

Personally I don't care for PvE at all. If I am doing strictly PvP then I deserve a bonus over someone who has done strictly PvE. I worked for my (currently) 42 valor ranks and all my dailies and gear bags. I didn't run a couple dungeons to get good gear I did hundreds of warzones, spent thousands of commendations and done countless daily and weekly pvp quests.

Edited January 9, 2012 by JustinxDuff

[Foenixz]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

That's why heirloom gear is so OP pre 75? and you can honor grind the latest season gear bar the T2 weapons?

[RJMazz]

Did you not notice endurance also goes up? I'm going to leave the math to bioware and not to the forum mathematicians.

 

Listen up people:

 

The only reason 'Expertise' exists is to prevent raid guilds from trivializing the end game content. No more ... no less, It's not some magic stat bioware created so 'no lifers' can grief you. If expertise did not exists you would still be destroyed by 'no lifers' with raid gear and you would be whining about that instead.

 

Be thankful expertise exists so you can be competitive with raid guilds in pvp. If you wanted to petition for gear equivalence like in GW2 ... do that instead ... that's a whole different thread.

 

Not if we could get PvP currency to buy gear with the same stats as them.

[SWImara]

Why not just make end-PvP gear and raid gear the same. Raiding and getting commendations may even give different kinds of tokens (or the same kind, just balance out the amount given). In the end, you`ll get the same game from both types of game and you can play both PvE and PvP in the end. You can have fun the both types of way.

This has been tried in the past and creates its own types of problems. Developers want raid content to be for raiding/PvE, they don't want people to be able to PvP and skip past the early tiers of raiding via their PvP gear. Raiding is a constant consumer of time via the creation of new content and players are expected to play through the varied tiers.

 

I like both PvEing and PvPing, why can`t I? Why do I need to have 2 sets of gear, one that gives me expertise and the other that gives me whatever makes me more special for PvE?

 

That`s retarded.

I like both PvEing and PvPing as well, I do both raiding and PvPing and have utterly no problem having two sets of gear for the two dramatically different types of gameplay. In a way people like you and I actually benefit from the two differing tracks of gameplay/gear as it means you have more content to enjoy.

[Orangerascal]

Not if we could get PvP currency to buy gear with the same stats as them.

 

Did you not read what I wrote, pvp gear is much easier to get than pve gear so raids will farm the pvp gear and faceroll the end game content. We've seen this in other games like rift. Bioware has learned from other company mistakes and don't want to trivialize their endgame content.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Orangerascal

[CapuchinSeven]

Did you not read what I wrote, pvp gear is much easier to get than pve gear so raids will farm the pvp gear and faceroll the end game content. We've seen this in other games like rift. Bioware has learned from other company mistakes and don't want to trivialize their endgame content.

 

A PVE stat instead of a PVP stat totally removes this problem, PVP gear wouldn't have it and the PVE stat only has a effect in flash points/operations meaning the gear doesn't make you anymore powerful in PVP than someone with the same tier PVP gear.

 

Hell, you could make raid gear WORSE in stats than PVP gear and it would still be better in PVE because of the PVE stat.

[Kentiah]

The fact that you seem to not be able to comprehend that bursty PvP is trash says more about you than anything I can say. It's sad really. Though I still think the most hilarious part is how you keep wanting to say PvP gear is SO UNFAIR for having PvP stats and it shouldn't have them, but PVE GEAR BEING VIABLE IN BOTH WHILE PVP GEAR ONLY BEING VIABLE IN PVP is totally fair.

 

Oh well, I'm done, bads will be bads. I'd say I'd see you in tor's version of arena when it comes out, but I won't be in a low bracket.

[Kentiah]

Hell, you could make raid gear WORSE in stats than PVP gear and it would still be better in PVE because of the PVE stat.

 

...wat

 

You realize that's EXACTLY what I said would have to happen for that to be even remotely possible.

 

But then you'd come full circle again complaining about how PvP gear has better stats and blah blah skill and so on and so forth.

[SWImara]

Which doesn't happen in games with a PVE stat/ward. Stats are the same on PVP or PVE gear, other than a PVE stat which reduces incoming damage and adds damage output in Flashpoints/Operations only.

I agree and recognize that, but this isn't but this isn't that type of game as evidenced by current gear stats. I'm not saying that the idea you're presenting wouldn't work, just that it is evidently not in the developer's plans. As is at present, removal of the expertise stat would just cause the same problems that have been experienced in other gear-focused games with raid based end games. If all gear had the same stats and there was just some sort of special "raider" stat that only effected PvE in raids, then sure expertise would be unnecessary, but I don't see SWTOR ever changing into that type of game.

[CapuchinSeven]

Oh well, I'm done, bads will be bads. I'd say I'd see you in tor's version of arena when it comes out, but I won't be in a low bracket.

 

I'm sorry, I grasp you've had some sort of sleeping problem and don't seem to be able to write or read as well as you maybe will after sleep but you seem to have confused me with someone who isn't stomping around in expertise gear.

 

I'll make it extra clear for you as we seem to have dropped into nothing but flaming, you need a PVP crutch stat, I don't. PVP stats are bad for PVP growth, always have been always will.

 

I don't need propping up so that I can kill new level 50's I use skill and team work.

 

but I don't see SWTOR ever changing into that type of game.

 

I agree, it's unlikely to change now, but systems like this lead to stagnant PVP.

Edited January 9, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[lordniah]

And also to prevent competitive pvpers from being forced to raid.

 

Seriously, no one seems to remember the old days when the raiders would dominate PvP based on gear advantages and everyone would whine about that.

 

The game is built around gear progression. Having two different paths for PvE and PvP is a good thing because it allows people to focus on what they like to do without feeling like they have to do everything if they don't want to. If you want a completely level playing field from the get go, there are many other different types of PvP games out there.

 

 

It's always better to give players more choices rather than less. If Bioware simply made raid quality gear available to pvpers, then their would be no problem whatsoever. People would actually be able to switch between raiding or pvp as they pleased. It would make the game more open and more enjoyable.