Focus Group Request & Proposed Fixes to PvP issues [Lengthy]

[Aneu]

Addendum: Without showing your disappointment towards the current system then Bioware will not update/change it, without demanding information we will not get it. To this end I have now added a tl;dr to the end of this post.

 

Introduction

 

Please first let me introduce myself, my name is Dean "Aneu" Lewis, I am the leader of VoTF and have been involved in PvP since 2003, this is by no means meant to mean anything to anyone other than I have been around the block once or twice and have plenty of experience with multiple facets of different games that involve PvP, from owning large parts of space in eve online to controlling forts in and running entire faction sieges Aion. This is a personal post that should not reflect entirely on my guild however I am sure many will agree with what I have to say.

 

The Old Republic PvP in its current state is very underwhelming to say the least, being quite blunt it's very hard to see what the PvP team have been working on all of this time, however I am not here to play the blame game, I am here to give constructive criticism and an alternative to current systems.

 

First I will talk about the very important issues facing PvP currently, then move onto a focus group request to Bioware.

 

The Problems:

• Ilum redundancy
  
• Level 50 expertise
  
• RNG (Random Number Generation)
  
• PUGS (Pick Up Groups)
  

 

Ilum Redundancy

Ilum as it stands has no part in the game apart from the daily quests. These quests remove the need to have any form of OWPvP, it actually goes against completing your daily quests. If you kill the enemy team it means you may need to wait a little longer to gain that flip in order to get an objective. The core of the problem is simply the daily quest, it is absolutely ridiculous and needs a very big change.

 

My Change:

Remove the current daily quests and introduce the following.

 

New Daily Quest "Push back the enemy"

Objective: The enemy has currently gained a foothold in Ilum, we need to thin their ranks in order to proceed with controlling the mines, your goal is to go and find the Imperial/Republic scum and put an end to their existence once and for all.

 

Kill 100 people on Ilum (100 of these kills can be gained via Ilum, 50 can be gained through Warzones)

 

Weekly Quest: The same as it currently is, with the above objective you will find that you have to fight in order to gain your objectives.

Addition: I would add the ability of guild tags being added onto the main republic and empire bases on Ilum. Each day at a particular time I would introduce a "semi-siege" system that gives the objective of "Hold the majority of the control points on Ilum in order to secure it for our faction" The side who owns Ilum for those 24hrs gain a +50% valor boost from kills gained in open world and warzones. The guild part of the faction who controls most objectives when the timer runs out and gets the most enemy kills gains their tag on the faction base, thus giving every guild an incentive to come to ilum during this time, it also promotes politicking between guilds and formations of alliances.

 

Level 50 expertise

Many people are currently complaining that they cannot compete with level 50s and this really is the case especially due to expertise.

 

My Change:

Simply put 50s into their own bracket, not a hard fix and all is happy and fluffy.

 

RNG (Random Number Generation)

This is possibly one of the most frustrating things in the game currently. I have now recieved 5 duplicate items from the past few boxes I have opened, 3 ear pieces and 2 implant duplicates (Very frustrating).

 

My Change: I would introduce a ratchet system depending on the amount of items you get and your daily quest. If you have 1 Centurion piece then your daily quest is increased by 25% (Note: This only occurs for your item set, not implants/ear pieces or relics) so it will look like

 

• 0 Pieces: Kill 100
  
• 1 Pieces: Kill 125
  
• 2 Pieces: Kill 156
  
• 3 Pieces: Kill 195
  
• 4 Pieces: Kill 244
  
• 5 Pieces: Kill 305
  

(Remember that 50% of the kills can be gained through warzones but 50% must be done on Ilum also)

 

I would make Implants/ear pieces and relics purchasable by Champion/Centurion/Battlemaster Commendations and then I would also introduce a check on items you already have so that you never gain an unassembled version of an item you already have. The current chance has been averaged to 33.3% which I can honestly live with, what I hate is that I can get the same item over and over (Also remember there's a grind for Valor 60 for Battlemaster so its not like we don't have enough grind to do without all this RNG stuffs)

 

The point of the above is that it creates a sense of battle on Ilum with people constantly being there fighting over objectives for their weekly, plus killing each other for their daily and then for their guild renown at set times during the day.

 

 

PUGS:

This is also another very frustrating aspect of the game, being in a competitive guild that prides itself on playing at a very high level I hate it when it feels like its 4v8 because the PUGs we are with are worth a wet towel.

 

My Change: Introduce two queues, one that allows full 8 man pre-mades and single queues, I am very sure that the PUGS who continually get rolled would be very happy for this to happen and allow us pre-mades to have epic fights against one another and form great rivalries.

 

 

Conclusion:

You now have a very active Ilum that is no longer redundant and is worth while. You have incentive for people to go there and participate in OWPvP. Guilds not become an active participant in OWPvP and have something worth their time and it also allows them to earn a name for themselves. Warzones will still continue to be active due to daily kills still being able to be achieved and commendation farming still being a priority for many. Obviously there are flaws with the above, such as bags being available for 200 Merc& Warzone commendations while you may have to kill 305 people for a daily however I am sure there are some very clever people out there who can come up with a solution to this.

 

Ilum really needs to become active, 50s need their own bracket and PUGs need to be reduced for competitive guilds due to the frustration levels going through the roof.

 

I implore anyone who has gotten this far to show support for these ideas or even come up with an idea that is an improvement on the current situation (which lets face it, isnt hard).

 

 

Focus Group

 

Having the old team from Warhammer doesnt seem to have helped with regards to PvP in SWTOR, many fixes that were introduced later than launch in Warhammer are still missing from SWTOR PvP and that to me speaks volumes. Over the past few years many companies have suffered from Ivory Tower Syndrome believing that they know what is better for a player more so than the players do, as has been shown through use of these forums that seems to be the case for Bioware currently.

 

CCP leads the way in Player to Developer interaction with their CSM, Players who have been elected by the eve online player base in order to bring up issues directly with CCP to get quick turn around and direct responses from developers/community managers. I really feel that this is something Bioware should attempt to introduce from the off.

 

Having reported many of the issues above in a plethora of beta forum threads and nothing being taken into account by developers (Even after emailing said issues to David Bass and Stephen Reid) I feel that Player to Developer links are some-what faulty. Having a group of (possibly elected) individuals who are in a position to advise Bioware on issues they feel are very important or require attention would not only restore some faith in Bioware from the PvP community but would give Bioware another semi-unique feature within which to show that they are a great development team and aren't simply following the corporate line (which I honestly feel at this current time).

 

So this is it, dear Stephen, after attempting to get you to talk to me about this over email multiple times it is now in the open, can you please bring this up with the required people at Bioware/EA in order to give us, the player base what it wants. I am not saying I want to be selected for a position in this focus group, I really couldn't care however I do feel that having elected people would give them some weight and also cement the foundations of what could be a great addition to this game (and also stop the ****-ups that obviously happened in development with developers/designers not knowing what the hell they were doing and jumping from one system to another and eventually settling with a terrible system which would frustrate the hell out of players - which was also pointed out by players in beta).

 

tl;dr

Change the daily quest and make it based around kills than capping objectives, keep weekly as it is thus making capping actually slightly difficult due to people farming their daily. Change Ilum to add a daily battle there over the bases, the winning faction's top guild (on kills) will have their tag on their base. Put a level 50 bracket in the game. Introduce a dual queue system for full 8 man premades and single players. With the complete disregard for player feedback during beta Bioware needs to take steps in order to give us, the player a light at the end of the tunnel, introduce a focus group for pvp'ers from pvp communities to stop any more introductions of complete and utter shoddy design and development.

 

Signing Off

Aneu

Edited January 4, 2012 by Aneu

[JackMinn]

Basically agreed on every single point. A lot of the concepts that have gone into pvp seem counter productive such as the dailies in ilum. There needs to be an actual incentive to kill people and until that happens then there is no reason to do so.

 

Also the RNG system is frustrating, you find players who have already obtained several pieces of a set while others have practically nothing. Sure its a nice boost to help speed things up, however in this case its hardly a boost. Buying say the champion weapon costs 123 champion medals or so, thats 41 bags at 3 each, thatd take 10 days of 4-5 hours of pvp on top of valor 60 to acquire whereas people got the weapon on the very first bag they opened. Its pretty simple, either it should be easily accessible or take time to acquire, not be both depending on the persons luck.

 

Fix please.

[Aneu]

I was going to put in CC diminishing returns need to be stuck into the same category instead of being in 3 category of CC atm, however I thought the post became too stretched as it is

[Welve]

signed, and I have a few drastic overhauls myself:

 

1. Objectives that cannot be easily taken and held by opposing forces, they require effort and large numbers to take. Additionally, instead of providing a set arbitrary reward, why not scale the reward for taking an objective with the number of defenders (read: deincentivize objective swapping mentioned in the post). Give the defenders a reason to defend, when the enemy is all clear give defenders a reward granted to the area.

 

2. Give bonuses to taking certain objectives: instant travel to the objective that is closer to the republic base of operation is an example. It is a good reward for pvp seeking adventurers that rewards both defenders and attackers with more PVP.

 

3. Not all objectives in open world PVP should have to do with taking or holding a point. In a war aren't you supposed to defeat the opposition? Give rewards to players, credits, valor, and experience, that scales to their level as well as their opponents level of PVP prowess (a brand new 50 would not be worth the same credits/valor as someone with a ton of valor).

 

4. Finally, no world PVP for the sake of world PVP. What I mean is that you have an incredible IP to work with here. Jedi artifacts, Sith relics, Hutt treasure. Give people a reason to fight on Ilum. The Empire can find and take an artifact back to their base to give them a damage bonus or healing bonus (nothing outrageous), but the Republic should be able to come knocking and take it back. Basically, make it a giant warzone that is constantly active that people don't have to queue for, we have the datacore at our main base, but that base can fall temporarily to the Empire/Republic and we are left at the dropship point instead of an outpost, we have to reclaim the base and then push out to try and down the Empire/Republic. It might take us a week to gain a good foothold on their side and another week to finally get the numbers and take their base, but it is better than a system of instant reward that discourages real interaction.

 

I would also go one step further and remove expertise as a stat from the game, but that is me.

 

GL!

[Aneu]

Agree with some of the above but some would take a while to implement.

[Sardoni]

I don't disagree with your post, but some of us don't like the warzones. I remember them stating that whether you wanted to pvp in the open world or pvp in instances you'll have access to the same rewards. i.e. Either or for the same rewards.

 

If I get geared out from open world pvp don't worry you'll never see me in your warzones.

 

In my opinion they should have a clear distinction with access to equal rewards.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Sardoni

[Aneu]

I don't disagree with your post, but some of us don't like the warzones. I remember them stating that whether you wanted to pvp in the open world or pvp in instances you'll have access to the same rewards. i.e. Either or for the same rewards.

 

If I get geared out from open world pvp don't worry you'll never see me in your warzones.

 

In my opinion they should have a clear distinction with access to equal rewards.

 

Thats exactly what the above encourages, all of your kills can be gained through open world however people who grind warzones can do 50% there but must do 50% in open world too

[Monterone]

Signed.

[marxo]

i have to say of all the post with complaints about the pvp system and what not this is very impressively done. and if everyone took to making post like this instead of QQing every chance they get. the forums as a whole would be a lot more productive a place

 

+50 DKP

[MichaelKage]

I stopped reading at Kill People on Ilum

 

What is your solution to Imbalanced servers ( 1 rep for every 6 imps ) ?

 

Killing people on Ilum is not an option.

[Sky_walkerPL]

+1 to OP.

 

4. Finally, no world PVP for the sake of world PVP. What I mean is that you have an incredible IP to work with here. Jedi artifacts, Sith relics, Hutt treasure. Give people a reason to fight on Ilum. The Empire can find and take an artifact back to their base to give them a damage bonus or healing bonus (nothing outrageous), but the Republic should be able to come knocking and take it back. Basically, make it a giant warzone that is constantly active that people don't have to queue for, we have the datacore at our main base, but that base can fall temporarily to the Empire/Republic and we are left at the dropship point instead of an outpost, we have to reclaim the base and then push out to try and down the Empire/Republic. It might take us a week to gain a good foothold on their side and another week to finally get the numbers and take their base, but it is better than a system of instant reward that discourages real interaction.

 

This.

Looks like bioware haven't really got into Star Wars wasting tons of opportunities that come out of IP itself. Here you got few of them, hopefully someone from bioware will read.

[Aneu]

I stopped reading at Kill People on Ilum

 

What is your solution to Imbalanced servers ( 1 rep for every 6 imps ) ?

 

Killing people on Ilum is not an option.

 

I'm republic, I welcome those numbers

 

If it really becomes a problem then introduce a defensive buff to the lowest populated faction. (Offensive buffs break games).

Edited January 3, 2012 by Aneu

[Wellmek]

Signed!

 

Just need that defensive buff or something for uneven number

[Brootus]

Well you got my vote to be in the focus group. Great post.

 

I noticed a funny trend when I played in the beta for this game. After segments of doing my story-line quest, they would give this questionnaire asking how I liked the story/light/dark options/voice-acting/etc. and I was thinking "why are they so insecure about this aspect of their game? It's awesome. Everyone knows it's awesome. But what am I going to do when I hit 50?"

 

The whole "don't complain on the forums. the game was just released!" argument I see a lot on these forums when people gripe about end-game content is a weak argument. There are tons of level 50s already who are just playing alts now because there is nothing to do in the endgame.

 

The OP hinted at it, but I just can't understand how an MMO can be released that doesn't take the endgame seriously. If the designers of this game come from backgrounds in DAoC and WAR, then they should know that both of those systems were awesome. Only thing wrong with DAoC was buffbots and only thing wrong with WAR was the game would lag/crash if more than 100 people were involved in a siege. (Of course you can cite other issues with those games in terms of balance or whatever, but you have to admit that their systems of World PvP were awesome).

 

I'm going to stop typing now because I guess I don't have some grand point to make. Just that I don't understand why they aren't trying to implement something more interesting for PvP than battlegrounds, or as the OP states, why they aren't even listening/responding to the community that has legitimate complaints and intelligent suggestions.

[Aneu]

Well you got my vote to be in the focus group. Great post.

 

I noticed a funny trend when I played in the beta for this game. After segments of doing my story-line quest, they would give this questionnaire asking how I liked the story/light/dark options/voice-acting/etc. and I was thinking "why are they so insecure about this aspect of their game? It's awesome. Everyone knows it's awesome. But what am I going to do when I hit 50?"

 

The whole "don't complain on the forums. the game was just released!" argument I see a lot on these forums when people gripe about end-game content is a weak argument. There are tons of level 50s already who are just playing alts now because there is nothing to do in the endgame.

 

The OP hinted at it, but I just can't understand how an MMO can be released that doesn't take the endgame seriously. If the designers of this game come from backgrounds in DAoC and WAR, then they should know that both of those systems were awesome. Only thing wrong with DAoC was buffbots and only thing wrong with WAR was the game would lag/crash if more than 100 people were involved in a siege. (Of course you can cite other issues with those games in terms of balance or whatever, but you have to admit that their systems of World PvP were awesome).

 

I'm going to stop typing now because I guess I don't have some grand point to make. Just that I don't understand why they aren't trying to implement something more interesting for PvP than battlegrounds, or as the OP states, why they aren't even listening/responding to the community that has legitimate complaints and intelligent suggestions.

 

Much appreciated.

[DVSvictim]

Great post, bio take heed.

As it stands Ilum is a total waste of a planet, for my last 2 weekly's ive basically stood 30ft from a pack of empire scum, taking turns at shooting rockets, then tele'd out without any bloodshed.

lol w.t.f?

 

If you wont get off your lazy asses and change the way that fail planet works then at least give us an incentive to actualy fight over the objectives, more valor, daily commendations ect. The idea of a constant join anytime warzone make me wet in places a grown man shouldnt be wet.

 

Mr. Aneu will you have my babies? I would like to have a spit roast with you and Jebus Christ

Edited January 4, 2012 by DVSvictim

[Aneu]

Great post, bio take heed.

As it stands Ilum is a total waste of a planet, for my last 2 weekly's ive basically stood 30ft from a pack of empire scum, taking turns at shooting rockets, then tele'd out without any bloodshed.

lol w.t.f?

 

If you wont get off your lazy asses and change the way that fail planet works then at least give us an incentive to actualy fight over the objectives, more valor, daily commendations ect. The idea of a constant join anytime warzone make me wet in places a grown man shouldnt be wet.

 

Mr. Aneu will you have my babies? I would like to have a spit roast with you and Jebus Christ

 

I must admit, this is not the first baby request I have had

 

I am just about to update the front page, I am guessing the wall of text is putting people off so adding a tl;dr.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Aneu

[ZachLight]

agree with all of this Aneu and so very simple to implement....also agree with the defensive buff for underpopulated.....very good idea...

 

/signed.

[Druidys]

The SMOOTHNESS isn't even close to WOW it feels like playing pvp at 60 percent speed instead of 100.

[Covent]

Agreed, a reasonable request put in very reasonable terms.

 

I am sure that Lucasarts, Bioware and EA dont want this title to go the way Warhammer/Rift/Aion went.

 

Or the sharholders might actually start hanging some CEO's out to dry like the bankers..

[Kryptorchid]

OP, great thread, and 100% agree that those are the biggest issues facing PvP in this game. I would say that they should remove Expertise from PvP gear and place it on Operation gear, giving you an x% bonus to damage, heals, and defense in raids and flashpoints. I just don't get why developers ALWAYS think adding a PvP stat is the way to go, whereas a PvE specific stat makes soooooooooo much more sense since the only progression in PvE is gear, whereas the real progression in PvP is player ability.

[Rylah]

Great post, but since I'm in the same guild we ofc talked about most of them internally already.

 

For me personally it is not only about making a name for the guild but more about doing stuff together as a Guild and not only as groups. In the EU zone at least we have about the same number of PvP servers as PvE servers and loads of PvP oriented guilds and single players. In the US it seems a bit more on the PvE side but the PvP community is still not negiligible.

 

We got a bit hyped up with the PvP announcements before launch and though we tried to keep a bit of caution because of the last few disappointments we were still in for a sobering experience. Only groups in warzones? Ilum about as interesting as watching paint dry? No reward for open PvP? And no risk? I guess a lot of guilds feel the same with the best "guild" efforts atm being 16 man PvE (shudder) and meaningless ganking runs on Ilum or even more meaningless ganking runs on Tatooine.

 

When your own faction yells at you in general chat because you kill opposing faction players and they need a few minutes more for their daily something is wrong. Really wrong.

[Kebabz]

Many valid points have been made in this topic.

 

The question is not whether or not bioware is aware of the failures pvp is in this game, it is whether or not they will come out and admit it.

 

If there is no announcements made regarding the obvious lacks of the current pvp system, and the future plans in which they intend to fix them. There is abselutely no reason for pvp players to stay. I dare say the pvp community is a bit more aged than the pve one, and we have learned that we come second, don't worry it is not the end of the world. We know that there bioware will constantly roll out fixes for PvE content (sine they are the grandmasters of pve content). However big and older group of players, waiting for their pvp, we know that pvp fixes are not necessarily incoming to us anytime soon if at all.

 

So I would urge Bioware to make a statement regarding the pvp in this game. We are not an unpatient bunch of players, we have just learned, that if there is nothing announced to look forward to, then there will be nothing to look forward to. Hence the pvp community can be quite loud, we need to be heard and responded to asap, because we know where it is going if not.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Kebabz

[TheFishes]

Generally agree on these ideas except for one major change...

 

"Kill 100 people on Ilum (50 of these should be on Ilum, 50 must be within the boundaries of an objective)"

 

This will promote fighting over the objectives rather than the current "swap" mentality...

 

Resolve needs reworked, slightly, but if they add a time element to the stun break (breaks all forms of CC and makes you immune to CC for 2-3 seconds) far less people would complain.

[TheFishes]

Addendum to my first reply...

 

Make the 8 man premade teams a ladder rating system... That way you kill 2 birds with one stone... The arena junkies from wow get their rated pvp, and everyone is able to queue up as an 8 man team...

 

Also, make this Huttball only, cause it's awesome...