On the Two Fundamental Issues of SWTOR's Success

[VeganHipster]

Great post OP.

 

I like the game , but it does not mean I do not notice its flaws. And it doesn't mean im going to go into people threads and harass them because 'THIS GAME BE THA GREATUS OF ALL TIME HERP DERP'. BioWare/EA did a good job of making a decent game. It is not what it could have been.

 

Instead of an MMO, they should have done something like Diablo. You get your singleplyer main quest offline, and then you can go online with four other friends. I mean, the game is pretty much like that right now! Do your singleplayer quest, and when you need to do a Heroic or Flashpoint you go into chat and spam 'LFG QUEST NAME', except with this you have to pay 15 bucks a month.

 

Btw, 5 stars :sul_tongue::sul_tongue:

Edited January 4, 2012 by VeganHipster

[Browmandude]

Especially liked the point where you mention the dark/light side problems as well as companion affection. Actually cought myself playing the game and choosing the dark side options in the dialogue wheel before I had even heard/read the dialogue

 

Nice read.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Browmandude

[TheHeadCapper]

If Bioware based TOR on the BC version of WoW, that's nothing but a good thing. WoW has gone nowhere but downhill since BC.

 

I wish i could swear at users in the forum. Expecially the wow heads.

[TheHeadCapper]

Another WoW comparison, goodie, we really needed another one, there just aren't enough on the forums.

 

I think this is a forum first!

[daeseer]

I think you're missing something about the direction WoW has taken.

 

Lately, they have taken pains to make the story really revolve more around you, the whole "center of the universe" thing you were talking about as being a problem in TOR. If you read the quests, that is.

 

I mean, think about it. How many people can actually kill the Lich King? Either 10 or 25. Once. Once he's dead, he's friggin' dead. But 9 of my friends and I were still able to go in there and take him out. We saw this dramatic cutscene, where Bolvar takes on the mantle of Lich King, and were told not to tell anybody about it. We were given the title "Kingslayer."

 

And so were a few thousand other people, on my server alone.

 

Oh, and then we did it the week after that. Wait, I thought we already killed him. Resilient guy, that Lich King.

 

Does it break immersion? Of course it does. But the entire MMO genre does this. I can't think of a way for it NOT to. For that matter, here are some other serious problems that plague MMOs in general:

 

1. Aggro radius. So I enter an encampment and slaughter some dudes, right in front of some other dudes. These guys just sit there, picking their noses. Wait a second, didn't they just see me slaughter their buddies? Guess not.

 

2. Respawns. I enter a cave, and kill everything in that cave that moves. Five minutes later, a bunch more of the exact same people/monsters/gel-like organisms just show up out of nowhere and attack me again. At least in TOR, the story areas curtail this problem -- if I enter a story area, and kill everything in there, it stays dead for good. Thank Jeebus.

 

3. Unchangeable worlds. WoW addressed this to some extent with phasing, although that brings another entire set of issues. Say I save a town from some horrible dude who keeps burning their houses. Or I am the one doing the burning. Either way, doesn't matter. So I've done the deed, and leave to go accomplish some great feat elsewhere. I come back later, and surprise! The same problems that have plagued this village seem to have continued unabated! Was all my hard work for nothing? Well, at least I got some XP out of it.

 

4. The Dickwolves. Dunno if you've read the Penny Arcade comic, the one about a WoW character being begged by a pathetic creature to be saved from his evening ****** to sleep by the dickwolves. The hero simply responds, "No, I've been told I only have to save 6 of you." Why would you stop at 6? And for a Dark side player in TOR, why would you stop at killing, say, 30 sandpeople instead of simply killing every single one of them? Hey, it doesn't make sense, but respawns, as I said, are just that immersion breaking.

 

In the end, it's impossible to make an MMO that's both fun and completely immersive. A single player RPG stops all of these issues, and Mass Effect benefited greatly from this. You can truly change the universe. But the problem is that you can't play with your friends. At all. Well, maybe you could if it was a coop RPG, but I have yet to see a well done coop RPG.

 

An MMO is really two different games. Yeah, there are lots of people going through the same story you are, and you will likely encounter them out and about in the world. But in the story, you are the only one who matters. It takes some suspension of disbelief, as do all of the other issues I named above, but the ability to suspend this disbelief also nets you the ability to group with friends, chat with your guild, and kill the same bosses over and over to progress your character. It's just the way MMOs work.

 

What you're effectively saying is that the story immersion is making the PITA MMO parts more obvious, and you're probably right. Still, I wouldn't give up the story immersion in this game for anything. It's a complete blast.

 

As for your comments on the dated feel of the game, you're probably right about a lot of it. WoW has implemented some very nice systems recently. Then again, why have I not felt like logging in to WoW for the past six months?

 

Because the story and the world just aren't that compelling for me anymore. What WoW was missing, SWTOR has in spades. And Bioware surely isn't done making improvements.

Edited January 4, 2012 by daeseer

[Oklopnik]

A very good analysis of the current situation. I personally don't the whole 'chosen one' concept' in MMOs. Being just another guy on the team is much more appealing.

 

Luke Skywalker was seemingly just another guy who ended up becoming a hero. So was Han Solo, and we loved them both. Anakin Skywalker was 'the chosen one' from the very beginning. A Mary Sue in the first two films that few people liked.

 

In this game I want to be like Luke, not like Anakin. Right now, I feel like Anakin. (Or Wesley Crusher for that matter)

Edited January 4, 2012 by Oklopnik

[Godsfear]

Look buddy, i understand you alone are the smartest person in the world when it comes to all things MMO (and probably all video games).

 

Lucky for us you decided to take your vast knowledge and expertise and post about it in these forums instead of applying it to your own video game(s) you create. We all know that if you actually created any sort of game yourself, or were in charge of any sort of video game business that it would be the best in the world with your foresight on board.

 

So please keep critiquing people you do not agree with by assuming anyone that doesn't instantly recognize how amazingly awesome you are; from reading your multi-page novel of opinions.

 

 

 

 

Also: Cool story bro

 

 

inb4 grammar / spelling retorts

 

"Bitter!, table for one please!":D

[JMcalister]

I'd like to see the quote where I made this argument.

 

Keep in mind that a lot of people reading these kinds of forums and, really, a lot of people in general today, won't or can't read anything that takes longer than 10 seconds total to read. Furthermore, their comprehension of a post such as yours probably rates at about a 1 or a 2 on a scale of 1-10. These days most people are just bad at basic comprehension and critical thinking, especially if what they are reading requires anything beyond about a 6th grade reading level. Then again, maybe it's always been that way, I don't know...

 

Anyway, great post, very thought-provoking. I am no longer playing SWTOR because of clunky game-play mechanics and what feels like a very claustrophobic world/universe. I liked the well-developed stories, but after about 30 levels it just seemed like I was playing a grindy, linear, single-player game.

 

I have high hopes for GW2, but we'll see. I do think the mmorpg world needs to evolve and I applaud SWTOR for at least trying to do something that is in some respects new.

[JMcalister]

Look buddy, i understand you alone are the smartest person in the world when it comes to all things MMO (and probably all video games).

 

Lucky for us you decided to take your vast knowledge and expertise and post about it in these forums instead of applying it to your own video game(s) you create. We all know that if you actually created any sort of game yourself, or were in charge of any sort of video game business that it would be the best in the world with your foresight on board.

 

So please keep critiquing people you do not agree with by assuming anyone that doesn't instantly recognize how amazingly awesome you are; from reading your multi-page novel of opinions.

 

 

 

 

Also: Cool story bro

 

 

inb4 grammar / spelling retorts

 

Ah, another person who tries to imply that critiques have no value if the person doing the critique can't do better. Does your girlfriend's crappy cooking somehow taste less crappy because you can't cook either? See what I did there?

[kalexkhan]

Great post and you really shed some light on design issues biowares is faced with.

 

One thing I think that's important that you glossed over was that when wow came out, it was essentially an appropriation of eq.... While I agree to an extent, but ultimately wow innovated in key ways and came up with refreshingly accessible answers to older and more frustrating types of content problems faced particularly by eq (corpse runs, xp difficulty, super strict grouping conventions, rare world drops, camps filling up, etc...)

 

The quest system itself was an important thing wow did as a means of progression, in eq, you camped and grinded xp... Quests were for epic items only, and involved entire guild raid events to complete. wow's quest system broke from the traditional so it felt great to do, it also supported instant gratification via gold and rewards that reinforced over arching desoign goals.

 

IMO, swotr,s design tea hasn't been asking the right questions about how they can iterate on last generation mom juggernauts to make them better... They spent their budget and time on just trying to get to wow's standard feature set. No small feat I admit, but the one bet they placed on dressing old and tired quests with cut scenes might not be key enough.

 

Anyway, great discussion, and here's to hoping for great things in this games future.

[Shoogaboog]

Wow, nice post, nice to read something that actually makes sense in a non selfish gaming level way (casual, elite etc)

[Shaede]

In the end, it's impossible to make an MMO that's both fun and completely immersive. A single player RPG stops all of these issues, and Mass Effect benefited greatly from this. You can truly change the universe. But the problem is that you can't play with your friends. At all. Well, maybe you could if it was a coop RPG, but I have yet to see a well done coop RPG.

 

An MMO is really two different games. Yeah, there are lots of people going through the same story you are, and you will likely encounter them out and about in the world. But in the story, you are the only one who matters. It takes some suspension of disbelief, as do all of the other issues I named above, but the ability to suspend this disbelief also nets you the ability to group with friends, chat with your guild, and kill the same bosses over and over to progress your character. It's just the way MMOs work.

 

Yes, I agree with that. Traditionally, there has been a strong opposition between a strong heroic figure and a massively multiplayer world. Some of this can be tackled by avoiding unique accomplishments (such as being the best at a given thing) and focusing more on shared accomplishments (like a ranking). Attempts to have truly unique titles (such as WoW's old PvP rank system) have failed. The mechanics of the genre are certainly a limiting factor (I once wrote an academic paper on that subject, in fact, enlisting Heidegger's phenomenology to illustrate the limitations of modeling social, political, or economic change that use video game models). Nonetheless, I think it's possible (and inevitable) for these problems to be addressed over time as MMOs continue to innovate.

 

As for your comments on the dated feel of the game, you're probably right about a lot of it. WoW has implemented some very nice systems recently. Then again, why have I not felt like logging in to WoW for the past six months?

 

Because the story and the world just aren't that compelling for me anymore. What WoW was missing, SWTOR has in spades. And Bioware surely isn't done making improvements

 

I agree completely with this sentiment.

 

Luke Skywalker was seemingly just another guy who ended up becoming a hero. So was Han Solo, and we loved them both.Anakin Skywalker was 'the chosen one' from the very beginning. A Mary Sue in the first two films that few people liked.

 

In this game I want to be Luke, not like Anakin. Right now, I feel like Anakin. (Or Wesley Crusher for that matter)

 

Great illustration! I completely agree. The original trilogy had a galaxy that was far bigger than just Luke or Darth Vader. Luke was just some kid who happened to be one of the last known force users. Vader was just the big bully working for the evil Empire.

 

In the prequels, this got all distorted. All of the sudden, Anakin was the center of the universe. Everything and everyone revolved around him. The galaxy shrank, the plot deteriorated, and the side characters became empty and hollow. There is something to be said for a main character that is too important, and as a result, spoils the setting they occupy. Maybe that's a rant for another time, though...

 

One thing I think that's important that you glossed over was that when wow came out, it was essentially an appropriation of eq.... While I agree to an extent, but ultimately wow innovated in key ways and came up with refreshingly accessible answers to older and more frustrating types of content problems faced particularly by eq (corpse runs, xp difficulty, super strict grouping conventions, rare world drops, camps filling up, etc...)

 

Correct. I didn't say it in my original post, but I've since said in in my responses (which I wouldn't expect everyone to read of course). WoW was taking EQ and other MMOs at the time and bringing out the best of all worlds. There were some big innovations in there (as you pointed out), but at it's heart, it was still just trying to perfect what had already been done. By the same token, it's been one of the most innovative MMOs in the market as far as updates are concerned, which is probably why it's still successful.

 

Wow, nice post, nice to read something that actually makes sense in a non selfish gaming level way (casual, elite etc)

 

Thank you! I try not to sound like I'm coming from either a casual or elitist perspective considering that I've been both at different periods and honestly don't see any reason to play favorites with one or the other. One of the things I'm hoping for with SWTOR is a more balanced distribution of content between these two overlapping groups.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Shaede

[Belbullab]

wow... read like five words of the first sentence... scrolled down to lol at the part 2 and then posted this... now leaving...

[Shaede]

wow... read like five words of the first sentence... scrolled down to lol at the part 2 and then posted this... now leaving...

 

Another member of the "Age of Status Updates". The age where people don't have the attention span to get through a single paragraph and need to alert everyone at once!

Edited January 4, 2012 by Shaede

[Godsfear]

wow... read like five words of the first sentence... scrolled down to lol at the part 2 and then posted this... now leaving...

 

Thank you for informing us that you couldnt handle reading a few paragraphs. You just wasted my time and now i'm wasting yours posting absolutely nothing.

[daeseer]

I don't really think it was Anakin as the center of the universe that was the problem with the prequels. It was the fact that George Lucas (no disrespect) can't write his way out of a paper bag without somebody to edit his material. And nobody had the balls to tell him that for the prequels, like they did in the original trilogy. His main ideas, and his ability to create a compelling world, are generally quite good. But writing a script is just not really his forte.

 

Anakin could easily have been a very compelling character, with the right dialog and story. There are lots of good stories about a chosen one. Have you ever read Dune? Yeah, the later books fall down a bit, but the original book is amazing. Maybe it's hard, though, to turn a character you're supposed to cheer for at the beginning into a villain. Not sure I've seen that pulled off very successfully in any form, now that I think about it.

[Larlar]

If you're right in two months time I'll buy you a pint.

 

If this game is still considered a success at that point without fixing character respsonsiveness and playability I'll eat my hat. If I'm right and subscriptions nosedive due to a faulty combat system and appalling character responsiveness I insist that you buy me a pint.

 

You're all so obsessed with the trees that you all keep ignoring the wood.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Larlar

[Astron_]

Great writeup, and very good points. Bioware should hire you.

[Arkimor]

Great post, OP.

[Kubernetic]

I don't get it.

 

You lost me when you tried to insinuate that some how the Star Wars universe doesn't divide nicely into factions.

 

Republic vs. Empire, then

Rebellion vs. Empire

 

It's been pretty much the same throughout. This is the problem when you keep confusing the story content with game mechanics. You're so busy trying to compare this game to KOTOR that you've forgotten what Star Wars was about.

 

It's pretty tough to build a combat mechanics system when you're trying to give people points for not doing any combat. This is where you have to separate the notions of living in the Star Wars universe and living in a game created around the Star Wars universe.

 

People had a huge problem with this when Star Trek Online launched. They just couldn't put their heads around the notion that a game where all you did was fly around and took biological samples from planets wouldn't sell very well.

 

The movie content must be re-purposed for the game. Jedi Knights who run around not killing anything and only ever light up their lightsabers during practice sparring at the Jedi Temple aren't any more fun than the fencing opponents in Summer Games II.

 

What did you expect Jedi to do? Run around resolving negotiations? So mechanics are devised to create a combat system, and so that every type of character doesn't have the same mechanic feel to it, different systems are developed. Now sure, maybe they could have chosen different words than "Focus" and "Centering", but are you saying it GENUINELY confused you when the cut scene after your battle used the same terms? Is it really that difficult to separate yourself from the game and the story?

 

To me, the building up of "focus" meant more about not charging head-first into a saber fight and slicing your arm off. Instead you start out with some slower maneuvers and acclimate yourself to the feel of the saber again before you start doing some tricky surgical work.

 

Now the one thing I will say is that as I ran around Tatooine, I did think about precisely the situation that you were bringing up. The slaughtering of the sand people made Anakin into a whiny sociopath and transitioned Padmé into the dumbest sack of rocks in the galaxy.

 

And here I was, doing the same. My response? I hauled out the assault cannon and toasted up some more sand people. It's a game, not a existential morality test of my own life.

 

-----

 

Everybody wants their chance to be the final predictor as to SWTOR's success or failure. We've had the numbers fights. We've had the subscriber's fights. We've had the This Isn't WOW fights. We've had the This IS WOW fights. And now we have someone trying to compare this game to other games and then use the other games as a proxy to determine success or failure.

 

If you're actually writing a college thesis about game design, then good for you and good luck. Start by getting the differences in story for a movie and story for a game down. Then start talking about the actual game rather than some other game.

 

Otherwise, it's been 15 days, my friend. Just relax.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Kubernetic

[Astron_]

..... Edited January 4, 2012 by Astron_

[SlickDevlan]

Your points are mostly valid, although highly opinion based, but your comments regarding "progress" and WotLK and Cata seem off base.

 

Since WotLK WoW has been losing subs even with these new and improved features. Dual spec and LFD have just as many people who dislike them as people who want them, the streamlining of the talent trees was also highly contentious and was, in my humble opinion, the laziest response ever to bloated trees and "cookie cutter" specs.

 

You may be right that SWTOR is "dated", but new does not always equal better...

[Astron_]

Dual spec and LFD have just as many people who dislike them as people who want them,

 

Source please?

Where's the user-survey showing this?

[Sendrel]

Really good stuff, OP.

[SlickDevlan]

Source please?

Where's the user-survey showing this?

 

Make a post about either of them or go count positions in the several already created posts. I'll wait...