On the Two Fundamental Issues of SWTOR's Success

[Shaede]

Do you know I brought DKs to the Horde. It's true Thrall told me so. I also killed the litch king but I still had to get a dumb flying license to fly in Org...

 

I guess if you never do any quest in WoW (not me but this was my fav quest chain in wow http://youtu.be/qCCsMJN3Hek) and never run any instances (No I killed Taragman the Hungerer) then you have a point.

 

You're correct. WoW does run into this problem on occasion as well, and on those occasions, it deals with the same difficulties that SWTOR is riddled with. It would be oversimplistic to say that it's absolutely "this way" or "that way", especially in such a massive and evolving game as WoW.

 

Yet, unlike SWTOR, WoW has no central story for your character. The death knight is a bit of an exception to that. The early plan for WoW was to have class quests for each class (who remembers those annoying rogue quests?), but that was abandoned years ago because of the amount of work it would take for such a small percentage of the population (I'm a little shocked by the quality of the death knight starting area). As such, it doesn't run into that problem nearly to the extent that SWTOR does (have you finished act 1 on a consular yet? That one is particularly strange in an online environment).

 

OP, you have (effortlessly, it seems) articulated the crux of why I will probably never play this game. There are other reasons to be sure, but thank you. I admit I had been on the fence for some time now.

 

I believe I was fortunate my hardware wasn't good enough to run SWTOR, otherwise I'd be logged in right now trying to squeeze water from this rock.

 

I'm glad you liked it, and I'm sorry it helped convince you to leave the game forever. That wasn't my intent with this thread, but it is better than forcing yourself to play a game you don't like.

 

(Though, I do sometimes feel as though I am squeezing water from a rock, other times I do find the game rewarding)

 

"Aside from a minority of zealots, it's obvious that the vast majority of SWTOR is identical to its predecessors World of Warcraft..."

 

I had to stop reading right there and LOL.

 

But seriously, couldn't you post this up on a blog and then simply post the link here?

 

Try reading past the first sentence (or even finishing the first sentence) if you are capable.

 

Why would I post this on a blog? This is intended for the SWTOR community (and anyone at Bioware who might stumble on it).

Edited January 2, 2012 by Shaede

[Truffula]

I think this post is correct in all counts except one: this conflict, between the single player hero's journey story, and the multiplayer aspect, is what makes SWTOR an impressive and original game.

 

A lot of the complaints about the original Star Wars MMO were the exact opposite. People said, everyone wants to be Luke Skywalker, and what you can play as is a random smuggler, trader, cantina dancer, minor league bounty hunter, etcetera. That game made an effort to make the world simulation aspect of the game work. That was its strength, and it was what people complained about most, to the point where they tried to retrofit a class/level based system on top of it (we all know how that went).

 

SWTOR works brilliantly, as well as is probably possible, at making the single player, you're the center of the universe, mesh with playing with a million other players at the same time. All the stories (that I've played so far) involve rivals who are about as powerful as you, who you have to work to triumph over. Titles aside (and the title over someone's head is not part of the game world really, it's part of the OOC), for every single player, your bounty hunter was the winner, and everyone else's were all the competitors you beat out. It's a fisheye world view. Such a difficult thing to achieve, the fact that they've got as close as they have is completely unprecedented.

 

Truly original games are simple, single creator affairs (or maybe 2 or 3 person collaborations at most, designer/artist/programmer maybe). That's how originality works. Then the simple games that work get picked up by firms and changed into higher production value versions. And again, bigger. It's just like the movies; the original movies are the indies. The blockbusters are tried-and-trues. So the originality in a high production value comes from the combination of sources. Single player heroic RPG plus DikuMUD based MMO hasn't been done on this scale before.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Truffula

[ShamasterX]

It's good to see a critical thread that isn't mechanical/bug based, and isn't whining about some inconvenience here or there, because you pretty much hit the real big issue here. The issue is not at it's core bugs, or content, or anything like that, it's the challenge of "Can Bioware make this design work?"

 

I will voice my opinion here that I think it can, though only time will tell. It is worth noting that Bioware has not downsized development teams post-launch; according to their reports they're still working non-stop on content. This gives me hope that they really can pull this off, and when I think of the true possibilities of what the Legacy system could be, I think it might be a great avenue for further development.

 

Also, as you pointed out, WoW never made any original contributions to the MMO scene (or the gaming scene for that matter), but married concepts together in a polished way. SWTOR not only has the potential to do very polished work, but make original contributions and start paving a way for the genre itself.

 

On a different note, on you're part at the end, I will comment that at my current level (38) I have never had to grind experience once. Only missions and my own class story (with an odd, intermixed flashpoint). I think it very possible to Role-play the game in such a manner where such realisms can be averted, and it seems almost as if the game was designed for that purpose.

 

Great Read though, hope the devs see this!

[Shaede]

I think this post is correct in all counts except one: this conflict, between the single player hero's journey story, and the multiplayer aspect, is what makes SWTOR an impressive and original game.

 

I agree that the conflict between a strong central story and a multiplayer environment isn't a failure. It does, however, have several problems associated with it. As it stands, there is a definite clash between the MMO mechanics and the central narrative. This doesn't ruin the game, but it does add tension that can undermine the experience. This, admittedly, will affect some more than others.

 

It's good to see a critical thread that isn't mechanical/bug based, and isn't whining about some inconvenience here or there, because you pretty much hit the real big issue here. The issue is not at it's core bugs, or content, or anything like that, it's the challenge of "Can Bioware make this design work?"

 

I wanted to offer something more than the typical critiques and opinions on the game. I'm glad you appreciated it, thank you.

 

On a different note, on you're part at the end, I will comment that at my current level (38) I have never had to grind experience once. Only missions and my own class story (with an odd, intermixed flashpoint). I think it very possible to Role-play the game in such a manner where such realisms can be averted, and it seems almost as if the game was designed for that purpose.

 

In the beta, I was disappointed by the fact that I could do every quest on a planet and still be a level under the recommended level for the next. On release, I was relieved to find myself ready for the next world at about the halfway point on any given planet. This means that I can skip as much as half the content and be all right. I can reject quests that I don't want to do (either because they aren't fun or because they're out of character) or eschew bonus objectives (which can sometimes be a chore). I can also skip entire worlds outside of the class story quests if I don't particularly like the world or if it's experiencing game breaking issues (such as Taris on both accounts).

 

Some people see outleveling content as a weakness to the game's progression, but I see it as a hugely positive design choice. After all, if I can skip enough content, I can play through it on my next character instead and get a different experience both times. It's a win win scenario.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Shaede

[Shaede]

I'm gonna bump this, cause I spent a lot of time on it and don't want it to fall into oblivion just yet. Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[Shaede]

One last bump. I think these forums move far too quickly for meaningful discussion. Everything falls down several pages in a mere instant. Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[bbbmmmlll]

I think this post is correct in all counts except one: this conflict, between the single player hero's journey story, and the multiplayer aspect, is what makes SWTOR an impressive and original game.

 

A lot of the complaints about the original Star Wars MMO were the exact opposite. People said, everyone wants to be Luke Skywalker, and what you can play as is a random smuggler, trader, cantina dancer, minor league bounty hunter, etcetera. That game made an effort to make the world simulation aspect of the game work. That was its strength, and it was what people complained about most, to the point where they tried to retrofit a class/level based system on top of it (we all know how that went).

 

SWTOR works brilliantly, as well as is probably possible, at making the single player, you're the center of the universe, mesh with playing with a million other players at the same time. All the stories (that I've played so far) involve rivals who are about as powerful as you, who you have to work to triumph over. Titles aside (and the title over someone's head is not part of the game world really, it's part of the OOC), for every single player, your bounty hunter was the winner, and everyone else's were all the competitors you beat out. It's a fisheye world view. Such a difficult thing to achieve, the fact that they've got as close as they have is completely unprecedented.

 

Oddly I like the bounty hunter story (only at low levels so far) much more because it's more believable to me. It fits into an MMO world so much better. When I play one of my Jedi's I feel like all these other NPC Jedis around me should get off their butts and help me. The 30+ Jedi's hanging out out near the Jedi Temple don't seem to do anything and they're all more powerful than I am. Personally, much like the OP, I think the Hero's Journey fails for SWtOR. Almost every single element of the game is telling you that you're nothing special with the exception of the cut scenes.

[Shaede]

Oddly I like the bounty hunter story (only at low levels so far) much more because it's more believable to me. It fits into an MMO world so much better. When I play one of my Jedi's I feel like all these other NPC Jedis around me should get off their butts and help me. The 30+ Jedi's hanging out out near the Jedi Temple don't seem to do anything and they're all more powerful than I am. Personally, much like the OP, I think the Hero's Journey fails for SWtOR. Almost every single element of the game is telling you that you're nothing special with the exception of the cut scenes.

 

Luckily, on my main character as an Imperial agent, this isn't so much of a problem. I don't actually see other field agents. They don't just hang around in broad daylight, after all. The way the story works out, I feel as though the world is scaling along with me rather than me getting more powerful to face more powerful foes. I think that seems appropriate.

 

Most other classes aren't so lucky, especially the force users. There's strict hierarchies within both the Jedi and Sith that one climbs, but that doesn't mean that there aren't hoards of other nameless force users running around for no reason. I'm willing to forgive this, in general, as a weakness of the RPG genre as a whole. I'd hate to criticize SWTOR on issues that affect such a wide stretch of gaming.

 

Some things I can't forgive, though, and those are the offenses that MMOs often to do their own lore. I could write volumes on why fighting Arthas was a terrible idea in Lich King. Already, in the mid-30's, I've run across something just as annoying in the Foundry flashpoint. This I won't spoil, but for those who've seen it, think of what it does to the lore of the setting. The damage in irreparable.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[Shaede]

I wonder if anyone read the last section. I swear, one could write a novel on some of these discussions.

[Calebreth-LotD]

I did enjoy this read. People who complain about a game being compared to WoW humor me. Alot of info in here and as you said I hope that more people do get to take a look at this. I think that we would all agree that we like this game and sometimes we love it. But there are a lot of things that would be great if they were changed or fixed. Add some more things that make the game more user friendly IE: Dual Spec, easier AH (GWT), Ops group que for Warzones. If they do start to add some things to make this game better and more adaptable this could last a very long time. They just need to adapt it to every type of player wether they are hardcore or really casual. Players need something that accomadates them. If they can pull off giving a little something for everyone to do then there is no doubt this will be great.

[Vespertiner]

I don't usually post on forums, but when I do, it's in threads such as this one - well-written and true. Too bad it'll go down the drain, should be stickied or something.

Not much to discuss though, yes, it's dumb to cram kotor and wow together, yes, they probably won't fix this game in time. Sad.

[pocketthesaurus]

Intro

 

Aside from a minority of zealots, it's obvious that the vast majority of SWTOR is identical to its predecessors World of Warcraft and Knights of the Old Republic. Now, as we all know, WoW is not a perfect game (but it is a highly profitable one), and neither was KOTOR. WoW in particular has been constantly evolving to meet new demands from gamers. The KOTOR inspired genre has led to games such as Mass Effect and Dragon Age. As a new MMO, SWTOR must stay competitive with these changing demands if it wants to stay relevant in the market. It must also find a way to combine the best of both genres into a single unified philosophy. These two demands lie as the heart of SWTOR's success, and failure to respond to them will literally translate into a failure to succeed in the MMO market.

I think it's exactly like Everquest, personally.

[metascension]

Very insightful and well-written. I hope that this game is able to continue to grow something original out of its dense roots!

[Romanswinter]

Great post! While I am enjoying the game, and do not have the many complaints others on the forums have - I did feel like SOMETHING was amiss with the game and I could not pinpoint it. But this very well written and thoughtful post does help me understand a bit more my feelings towards it.

 

Although brand new, the game does feel dated in some of its mechanics in contrast to Everquest 2 (which I had left to come here) and other games I had been playing recently. I do feel, however, that SWTOR will adjust quickly and make the necessary changes to catch up to the standards people expect in modern games.

[Raurth]

I think it's exactly like Everquest, personally.

 

Then I'm afraid you never played it.

[airrazr]

good read. Totally agree

[Netsu]

Great post OP. Just posting to rate.

[BMSRT]

People worry too much about whether the game will be a hit or not... Just worry about how much fun you are/aren't having and call it a day.

 

In the end, the opinions of everyone on-line don't count for a damn thing.

 

 

People want it to be a hit, I want it to be a hit. I think the majority of the rage you see on these forums stems from the worry that something that has (had) so much potential to be our next virtual world, our exciting getaway in to the Star Wars universe, is going to fail because of poor design decisions, EA's greed, and the fact that Bioware isn't being very vocal about what people are unhappy about.

 

We all want this game to succeed, but there is no company moderation to ease the worries of the subscribers, and no real company acknowledgment of the issues that seem to be upsetting players the most.

 

It really does seem that the devs are preparing to write this one off, and I can't blame people for worrying about it being another let down.

 

Edit: Forgot a word.

Edited January 3, 2012 by BMSRT

[KorwinOfAmber]

SWTOR is already most successful MMO released since WWO. What is OP smoking?

 

Current forums though is by no means an indication of how many people enjoy the game.

[Shaede]

I don't usually post on forums, but when I do, it's in threads such as this one - well-written and true. Too bad it'll go down the drain, should be stickied or something.

 

Thanks! I agree, though. Due to the rate of posts on boards like these, it's hard for the longer, more contemplatively paced threads to get noticed. So it goes.

 

I think it's exactly like Everquest, personally.

 

Sure, we can trace its genealogy back games like EQ, that doesn't mean that playing SWTOR is anything like playing Everquest. Simply put, that's absurd.

 

Great post! While I am enjoying the game, and do not have the many complaints others on the forums have - I did feel like SOMETHING was amiss with the game and I could not pinpoint it. But this very well written and thoughtful post does help me understand a bit more my feelings towards it.

 

You're not the first to say this. I'm glad to have been able to put into words the impressions and feelings others have gotten from the game. I think understanding what we do (or don't) like about a game dramatically helps us to appreciate it for what it is (or in the case of an MMO, what it could be).

 

SWTOR is already most successful MMO released since WWO. What is OP smoking?

 

Current forums though is by no means an indication of how many people enjoy the game.

 

Yes, SWTOR has sold more copies in the first week than any other MMO. Be wary of that trivia, though:

 

1) As gaming (and online gaming) becomes more mainstream and the potential market grows, newer releases will always on average sell more copies. That has to be taken into account.

2) The measure of an MMO's success is not its initial sales, but the amount of and duration of its subscribers. If SWTOR makes a lot of initial income, then loses most of its subscribers in the first few months, the MMO will be deemed a failure. This isn't a single player game, after all.

3) Do you think EA made the ~$300 million in revenue yet to pay off its initial investment? One must combine "most successful MMO release ever" with "most expensive MMO release ever".

4) This is an MMO. The amount of people playing it has little to do with how much people enjoy it. That's a topic for another thread, though.

5) I don't smoke.

[TheHeadCapper]

Another WoW comparison, goodie, we really needed another one, there just aren't enough on the forums.

 

LOL couldn't agree more. That last thing i want to read about is a comparison to a game i haven't cared about in 5 years.

 

This MMO has a real storyline that i feel apart of, soemthing i've never experienced in an MMO before, and that's good enough for me!

Edited January 3, 2012 by TheHeadCapper

[Gunryu]

SWTOR is already most successful MMO released since WWO. What is OP smoking?

 

Current forums though is by no means an indication of how many people enjoy the game.

 

Sales wise you may be correct but the success of an MMO is subscription retaining so you can NOT say it is the most successful MMO released as the free month isn't even over yet.

[ToliverGrey]

Got as far as the OP saying the changes made recently in WoW are "advances" and improvements. That must be why WoW is bleeding subscriptions every month since Cataclysm's launch....

[Merced]

yet another "waaaaahhh WoW has this, you must have it too to be good" drooling.

 

You literally wrote a convoluted wall of text relating two entirely different games to another entirely different game and why one of them needs to apparently be like the other two. Yea i mean ok.

[tzipidamus]

Thoughful post. Posting to rate.