Absolutely agree... especially learn2playcarnage it is help full getting basics down and developping the awareness for the procs, and reacting properly when you have or dont have them. But the parse thing in this thread came up as to the total damage capability of a class and spec and that was set in as factor of pvp relevance, that''s why I asked whether the meta has so significantly changed.

Balance really good in pvp now, especially since things seem to get away from burst to more pressure. And I agree, Imperial Agent, was favourite story as well. and to op again, operative/scondrel healers, are easier to play and easier to solo queue with, but you get way more hate.... everybody and his mom hates operative

As somebody else said, what you are now saying indicates you are on the right track. Unfortunately you play a class and spec that isnt exactly solo queue friendly. I know this again, because I played sage heals for a while as well, and with support i can be pretty frustrating. So what you definitely should do to improve your playing experience: as other have said (i guess myself as well), get a guild and queue with friends, use VoIP and see that your chances of winning increase drastically. As a sage healer I highly recommend that you find yourself a pocket tank. Since sages are squishy and as heal the absolute prime target of every enemy dps, having a tank guarding you and peeling for you makes it so much easier. If you solo queue and see that a tank is doing this stuff for you, you might wanna put him on your friendlist, whispher him and ask to group. Since they have good mitigation and great peeling abilities a guardian tank would just be perfect for that. Finally you might wanna finde 2 dps to add to that group and run a full premade. Despite a lot of QQ on these forum about premade, it still is about the most fun stuff in game you can do pvp wise outside of ranked. And it helps getting better and winning more. Good Luck

While you are right that currently the population would be a bit low, considering the ranked community (as it is right now), I know quite few people that left the game and openly said they would return if there was 8v8 ranked again. It was a feature that kept people playing the game and like the stuff you do pvp wise. A lot of people really liked it (despite the flaws), so would use current population as a knockdown argument. I mean even GSF drew some people back to the game, not actually ground pvpers though... and with WoW it is also like people quit the game new extnesion comes and they resub and stuff.

3 healers where annoying but BiS for certain situations. The issue was back then that you could still field respect in wzs. So in voidstar defense everyone who could respect tank or heals and stuff like that. Back then one of most important demands in the community was the limit respec to just the beginning of the wz (so if it is huttball you assassin could go darkness and stuff like that). or 3+ smash... wont happen anymore. Sorc heals were viable back then anyway, and merc heals probably would be right now as well. Would be genuinely interesting to see it back with the changes that happened since its removal.

I havent played in a while, but has the meta changed that much? I mean except for scoreboard heros (and i admit myself guilty of that too) your total DPS means nothing in pvp or at least it used to when burst was king and hard switches was the prefered move. Carnage can put up solid total dps numbers but it's strength and why it was good in 4s was the insane burst. Can be that will all the buffed DoT specs tank tunnel is the way to go now? Then ofc total damage (without tab dotting ofc) would gain more relevance, but i seriously dont know how it is now? do 4s even pop anywhere?

I just found it funny... although honestly i have been at this level of rage as well. @OP But yeah, to clear things up a bit. Just leveling a class to 55, knowing roughly what you do, buying some gear (you didnt even say whether it was proper pvp gear) and running through a few wzs, is insignificant sample data. First I guess it is the same with most people, but when i first stepped into an endgame wzs, i usually got slaughtered. And I had nobody to blame but myself. I was bad, terribad in fact, not really knowing what i was doing or what the others were doing (in terms of understanding classes, the objectives are really easy), no knowing which role i have to fulfill, poorly geared (that was pre bolster in the old recruit gear days). I can easily imagine that every loss at that time was exactly my fault, and every win i was getting carried badly. The main point is it takes some time to get the basics of pvp in this game. That means understand your class and all the potential things you can do (on most classes situationally you use all of your abilities, knowing when to use what is crucial), having the same knowledge about the other classes (and the roles) as well (so that know what they are doing, and how to counter it), developing a situation awareness, what is the enemy team gonna do most likely (in pug match you can anticipate quite a lot, and act accordingly before it is even done). This is all very important to actually be good at pvp and of much use for your team. But here is the catch, unless you are an uberpvper with year of experience in different MMO and have no life, play 24/7, this really takes some time. Way more time, than just leveling up (even if did it by pvp). At level cap, chances are you against experience, geared players that have this skill already, so you are getting pwned. But you if want to be good and win you have to be willing to improve and in the first weeks that means you will go through some pain. Second point, you need pvp gear, you need to augment it, you should be stimmed and optimally have stun grenades. Getting all this done takes time, costs credits (quite a lot actually) but is ultimately necesssary to be competitive. PvP gear plays less of role than it did pre 2.0 but you are still gimmping yourself massively not getting it. You are way squisher in pve gear, you need 2018 expertise, even if the stats are worse than the non pvp gear. So that is just about you personal. It wasnt meant bad in anyway, but it is just like that, it takes a bit to be decent in pvp in game. So ofc you are not the only one in your team, and general decline in quality of players in this game, is frustrating. With PuGs you dont know what you get, so even if you are reasonably good and mastered all of the above mentioned, you still might be paired up with bad players, that cause your team to lose. Mind you this is an MMO, so a social game, meaning the best tip i can give you, is find yourself some friends in game or a guild and queue with them. You will quickly notice the difference, if you are with people that roughly know what they are doing. Also what Eastiano said, it changes throughout the day. Ultimately, you can accuse BW of quite a lot of things and for good reason, but faction imbalance is not really in their control. If more decent people are on the opposing faction, it was their choice to roll there and not BWs. And if your team loses, in general it is not BW fault either.

I would say sniper/slinger operative/scoundrels evasion/dodge is one too. In fact it might be even better since it also breaks the root (I always have to laugh when in particular Scoundrels and Operative use there breaker against my sents master strike or the juggs ravage)

with the last one disagree. In fact Muscos No gate was only fair. Now you exactly know what you are paying for and what you gonna get (or better what not). Living in false hope that things get better and spending sub month after sub month in this game, because you think one day they might do x-server or bring back 8v8, is wasted money from you. The only people Musco's post really hurt was BW, and it was just weird to see it, because that is not how you would normally communicate with customers. But as I said, we now know what to expect and despite the initial disappointment that is a good thing. Those that unsubbed and left will not regret it, since they were hoping for the game to be more than it currently is. Those that stay are roughly happy with what the game has to offer. It is fair play.

well, they are just hated that much it is incredible. As I said roll was also already nerfed of the spammy factor. You just can not slow operatives to full anyway when they are rolling, but the 2 rolls are pretty much one force speed (but yeah with a lower CD), less than one leap or charge. Anyway almost every class has something to add for huttball. My ideal huttball team would have an medicine operative, for healing, first ball spawn and as situational ball carrier.one Immortal jugg main carrier. darkness assassin in dps gear for ball spawn (shroud for the win), situation ball carrier, fire pulling (sometimes the only chance to stop jugg tank or operative healer), phase walk to the end zone (to be guardian leapt to, while still being in stealth) or going through the pits unstunned (shroud again), a carnage maurader as predation bot. 2 snipers, spawn or mid control, 2 sorcs one heals one madness for the friendly pull and mid control. So predation plus operative roll, plus jugg utility, plus assassin pull, shroud and phase walk, plus sage pull pretty OP:P

so yeah beyond level 10 you will really use cover only for explosive probe (it used to be different). All tries are a bit underwelhming early on, but i would say concealment (middle tree) is the best until you get into the 30s. It is still good there (and in endgame pve) but there the healing starts to improve very much. If cull is available lethality is also an option (i think that would also be in around mid 30s). So in the low levels definitly concealment once you are in the 30s the other trees catch up for pve. (the postional requirements and stealth requirement on hidden strike make concealment a bit annoying for solo pve play and you might have an easier time in lethality). PvE wise all three trees are viable, pvp wise healing is the way to go, but concealment is more fun. P.S. If you are more used to ranged classes, Lethality might be a tad easier get down than concealment. The reason is simply that is has more key abilies in 10m range and the two dots are 30m range. While concealment is full melee on its main attacks.

i wouldnt exactly call 26 killing blows and 5 solo kills fluff damage. yeah huttball and yeah regs but still both dps spec have quite some damage output (not just corrosive grenade spam to fluff) to do some serious damage. Their problem has usually just been that they are ridiculously squishy (outside of medicine), the recent changed don't seem to have fixed that ... and that is the reason why usually assassin were prefered for srs pvp. @OP In theory a jugg can make 90m in 4 global cooldowns and you would be surprised how aften you can pull that off. Assassin have shroud making them hard to stop if they use it smartly. Snipers have sweet "you cant touch this" roll as well. and i could go on. Operative are still about the best ball carriers. You could nerf them and some other class would be. What have you won? Roll was already changed because people thought it was too spammy. So what should be done? Medicine is about the strongest healing tree pvp wise in this game, true. But making Operative a stand to cast class for all their heals would make them completely useless. With the weapon damage increase from 2.7 i also find they die a lot quicker. Since i am not really playing anymore, why not nerf operatives for a change.

trust me it can, a well played pyro is a killing machine.

PT... remember Assassin wear light armor, you can get some armor buff in the deception tree, roughly taking you to marauder level, but you are still quite squishy. There are some abilities in the tanking tree that help a lot, so a hybrid might be an option if you want to off tank. But an assassin has a harder time stance dancing than say a jugg, since changes stance instantly drains all force, so you are useless for some amount of time and still have a bad damage mitigation. Also damage pulls you out off stealth, so when you guard somebody and he is attacked... Even full darkness assassin in tanking are squishy for a tank. PT, have a little cast time on stance changes but it is managable and your resources are not affected. And they are naturally more tanky than sins. DPS pre 2.8 in terms of sustained both classes where pretty much at the bottom with both trees. Deception is all burst and very little sustained, but if you play it smartly you can still top the charts. Madness has been buffed massively in 2.8, but i so it might be pretty good damage now (madness is a bit more squishy though than deception, and has less control in my mind, the root from creeping terror doesnt make up for the loss of low slash) AP is an AOE damage spec, so you can get good number in pvp easily, but it is not that bursty. Pyro, is bursty and got its game bufffed, so it might be in really good place now. Also it is ridiculously easy to play. So you should be able to get good numbers with that too. While Operatives out of all those classes you named have a pretty good sustained dps and can have some insane burst (if you are lucky with your crits). They have the benefit of having a really good class story as well. And they knives make people just rage at you:P Best know theme on these forums : nerf operatives.... and it is not only the healing tree.

Biggest non nerf in the history it seem. I haven't played since 2.8 came out, but already on paper it seems to me not much has changed by that. You tended to use it when under heavy focus anyway and those 10 stacks usually where gone quicker than 10s.

but but but .... operatives are kewl... them knives <3

Again cross healing is not the direct problem. What else should healers do? They heal that is almost their sole purpose. It is just problematic if one time 3-4 healers (and possibly a tank) and the other has none or only one. It is more problem of match making than insane healing abilities or stuff.

I have negelected my vanguard badly, but it is a pretty solid class for pvp, both dps tree are really good and easy to play and pyro got buffed last patch (havent played since then 4 weeks so dont know how much it effects the balance). Id say out off the three classes you named it is the tankiest as a dps, but you lose the fun factor stealth. Concealment Operative vs Deception Sin, is something that talked about a lot. And the common answer which I second is Sin is just better in getting the job done. The off healing the operative has is neglectable and taunts are geneally more usefull in pvp. The total damage output of the operative is higher, but the burst is really heavy RNG dependent, wheres the sin pretty much has on demand burst when popping out of stealth (at the cost of sustained). The Assassin has better defensive CDs making it more survivable and in Phase Walk a brilliant escape tool. As a Concealment Operative you even with the defensive buffs, will struggle at the main fight, since it still is really squishy, whereas the Deception Sin can last there for a bit. I find Deception is a bit harder to play rotationally, since a lot you do outside the initial burst depends on procs, whereas concealment now is pretty much straightforward. Madness i have never played on my shadow or assassin, but from what i have seen it seem pretty good now. Lethality is simply not made for pvp at least no on an operative (too much fluff, and you hardly get the rampup done, solid in 1v1s though) For solo ranked deception is kind of the to go spec atm, since it is probably the least team depended Spec there is. Operatives have one of the strongest trees in game PvP and PvE wise and that medicine. Still best pvp healers and BiS for team ranked. Darkness Assassin, not the best tank pvp wise, but viable for all content. And there is nothing better than stealth pulling people into the pits in huttball. Operatives are very good ball carriers in both huttballs due to roll. Having the CC immunity by Shroud (if it works) is also nice as assassin when you are in the end zone. Ultimately ofc it depends on you, do you want stealth and still participate in the main fight (without spending more time in spawn than on the battle field) go assassin, if want to have stealth, want to be the guy everybody hates at the off nodes or healing your team to full go operative. If you want to be the guy that is hard to kill while ditching out a lot of damage while 3 people are on him roll power tech.

well, that was what they said when ranked wzs came out, season 1 wouldnt start without x-server. In the meantimes the almost the whole dev teams was fired. the game went f2p, paid server transfers, removal of ranked wzs (because too small playerbase... at least that was BWs official reason), and the no-gate from where SOUL quoted, with basically said, if you care about PvP don't expect anything of this game anymore, at least not in the near future, which will be at least 1 year or so. People keep asking for X-server. While this is definitely what they game would need. You already have the answer, it is not gonna happen. 8v8 ranked, no coming back, OWPvP no further incentive planned., everything else not gonna happen. At this point, there is no point complaining about the lack of these things anymore. They played with an open deck, we know what is planned for pvp and that is exactly what we gonna get, and nothing more. Server merges might be still an option though, despite as somebody has already mentioned, it is less likely now since they probably want people to pay for transfers.

madness sorcs are pretty strong 1v1 against stealth dps, if played by a competent player. And they can melt tanks pretty much. Operatives never could cleanse their dots. In general pretty strong 1v1, when they kite, slow, dot and heal up. It is pretty much hard to do anything against them. Fortunately there were never many good ones around, but those that know what they are doing are scary.

Bradley made me play shadow as a full tank for a while, just it is such a nice troll spec...huttball plz

And 1 man nightmare ops as well plz.... Srsly, if you want a 1v1 you can duel people. If you want a ranking make duel tournaments, with rewards and everything. 1v1 solo ranked doesnt fit the idea of an MMO and it has absolutely to do with competitive pvp. You want balance around that? How? I mean like give every one a heal2full, stealth, auto crit burst and tons of cc or the opposite of that? The only way to balance for 1v1 is make everysingle AC exactly the same. As it is now some classes are really good at 1v1s (vengeance and tank juggs, operative healers, concealment, all assassin specs, madness sorc) , some are mediocre (don't know maybe anni on a marauder now) and others are not usuable unless incompetent opposition. And heck it is intended, since different classes have diffferent roles to fulfill in pvp combat. Snipers and Lightning sorcs don't usually want 1v1 situations, but excelle bursting stuff down for a wisely chosen position. AP PTs can do some sick melee aoe damage so they are best to be found in the mid of battle against multiple opponents and so on. MMOs are social games, you are meant to group up with other people to achieve your goal. A social game, should balance around group content. btw 2v2 arenas in another game you can play atm, is not really that great it either, no meta just derb and you still largely depend and who you get queue with.

while true, it is not happening in the foreseeable future.

first of all mate, did i accuse everyone that made it too a good rating of q syncing.... i know a few players on my server that go though the pains of it and have a good rating, despite no absusing. it is just that the mount and the title pretty much becam a stigma for q syncers. I personally dont care, because it never was a game mode i specificially enjoy... but to each of for his own. if you like the game mode, well go for it, but from what i have i seen a lot of people just do it for the comms or the rewards and when you see people you know to be utter ***** with the mount you know what has happened. What i dont get is that your glorious rating gives you some authority. I mean seriously congratz on that, well done, but heck this game is basically dead and just checking you got best slinger/sniper world after WS launch, so with every major player leaving the game (and heck yeah, you might be 100 times the player I was, i srsly i have no problem admitting that), but your rating doesnt give you authority. You cant deny that part of your skill required queue dodging -> not queuing when terribads are on (because you have friended them) and queing when decent people queue . No blame for that, but it is an essential skill you need to have for a yolo player oherwise it is just too random. and yes i have done yolo, i didnt like it because it s too random and it reallly doesnt me much, but yeah got a super rating in a non competiviteve game .... so yeah you are righht

the thing is this basically made everyone who has the shiny mount look like queue syncer. But yeah some people just need rating for their e-peens and the rewards, so suddenly even pug arenas can be interesting. But yeah yolo is yolo, a pretty weird game mode.