So I'm a big pvp'r. But I have been getting my Datacron's to make myself stronger (even though it's a small boost). I have to say it's a lot of fun. Now if I just knew about these sooner..I would have done more pve!!

Your response is why companies like Bio Ware are in this situation. Again I will say... A COMPROMISE IS NOT BIAS!! IT HELPS OUT BOTH SIDES OF AN ARGUMENT. IN ADDITION JUST BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T HAVE ONE MORE "mirror" SELECTION WOULD HAVE MADE NO DIFFERENCE. I started with a compromise, then included against my pref as the second answer, and most of my answers were compromises. End of story. Not bias. Dev's are wrong. Get over yourselves. This is how companies go "poof" and fly away into the wind...when they don't listen to people. I've seen it many times. That's why I'm so critical. When I admitted...to make changes I met just to avoid confusion...but I still don't think it would have made a diff.

The poll is not bias I made another post about that. It's actually the opposite. So I will repost it here. PEOPLE HAVE SHOWN THEY DO NOT WANT THE DEVS CHANGES! ADD THE ANSWERS UP! I have another poll on MMORPG.com that shows the same thing. A compromise helps out both sides. It does not help out just one. For games like this to be successful we need to compromise. The reason there are so many answers like that are because it's fair to both parties not just one. It's ok to be bias with the those answers because it helps our both sides....therefor it is not bias. If you think it is that's debatable. Mostly because I should have added one more "i don't like force wave" question. But isn't that the same answer as the second one? I really don't think it would have made a difference. Anything else would have been thrown into the compromise category. And another preresponse to the "debaters" is that..if I would have removed the "if it's not broke don't fix it question" everyone would have chosen the answer above...which would have shown EVEN more clearly that no one want's the DEV's changes. Consider yourselves lucky. The only reason I put the one answer (for being completely against) twice is because I knew people would like the answer "if it's broke don't fix it". And I would agree with you that's a mistake I should not have included that. But either way those people would have obviously chosen the similar question. Tell me what choices you would like me to add and I will post a new poll with them in it Thanks *** and this is how it really is... Let me sum up the options: 1- A compromise should be reached where Force Wave can remain as is and have a longer cool down. = "Both parties get something they want" 2- I am not a fan of Force Wave. It's annoying when people do it all the time. I like the new update's restrictions. = "I want Force Wave to be changed" 3- A compromise should be reached where Force Wave still hits surrounding enemies, carries the same animation and does the same damage, but the opponents behind would only get knocked back a smaller amount or not at all. = "Both parties get something they want" 4- Force Wave was never a problem in PvP or PvE. There are countless problems that are far more important!! = "I don't agree with the changes" 5- "If it's not broke don't fix it" = "I don't agree with the changes" 6- "Force Wave should get three charges. After the third charge Force Wave will knock the enemies as far back as possible. Up to 500 meters. Force Wave is awesome." = "This is a joke question and doesn't count. I was trying to be funny." and by the way that's a good thing for those in favor because these people would have obviously chosen something in keeping Force Wave the same. So it actually works in the opposite way in turn helping out answer 2. I should have included one more answer like number 2 to be fair. But I really don't think it would have made a difference. Next time I will be more careful. Thanks for pointing it out!

Quote: Originally Posted by ObscureKnight So what I am seeing is that Bioware never plays the Shadow role. You know taking the healing and armor nerf was bad with 1.3, NOW you made it harder for me to defend my self in pvp since I cant stun from a distance more than 10 meters. SERIOUSLY BW what are you doing? You keep screwing my tank into the ground. In pve I use that ability to stop those attacking my healer (normally form a distance of 15-20 meters), but now you made that harder. I want to talk to a real BW employee that plays a shadow class and tell me what they are thinking? Because I think you guys have lost focus of balanced play for this toon. Also the knock back must remain, because if ANY OF you really played any PVE raids you would know you need that when your heals gets mobbed by adds and you have to run over and defend them while taunts are on CD, Think Kaon on HM. I am serious, I would like to talk to a BW employee about this nerf, whether in game or by email. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've been called a blog "spammer" many times. Mostly for my recent posts about what you are talking about above. But I post because it's annoying and makes me angry. I feel your pain. I am a Shadow tank as well. It does seem like they have a reasonable methodology about why they moved things around, in turn, trying to be fair to Shadows and at the same time balancing the game. But I agree with you. I'm not a fan of this. And in some ways it's a nerf, and other ways it's not. I have posted about this at least 4 times and created 2 polls. Overall I feel like it's a nerf. Mostly because I already have to guard etc. on top baby sitting the whole team...this just adds more work for me, and I still have a lot to learn. We don't have to get into it though. But I will say making a more focused Force Wave is a great idea but changing the ability around completely....eeeh. Nothing will take away the permanent shock I felt when I heard they decided to change an ability I never heard a complaint about. I still think they could have made smarter decisions (see my other posts for all the other options for Force Wave/Overload). It's just how they went about it that's not good. When you company is struggling as is, you really need to take the time..to show customers you are trying, and involve them in building a better game. Also when "nerfology" is the going Dev CC it's not smart to change 3 abilities etc. around for a character all at once like they did for us...and if they do it...it should be done like I sate in the next paragraph. They should have released some polls asking if people thought one ability nerf was a fair exchange for the other and listed many options for us to choose from. At least, even if we didn't like it, it would show us that they are truely trying to work with us and build a long standing game. When they perform these radical changes, like 1.4 seems to be, it makes Bio Ware come across like a T.V. preacher performing great miracles rather then a company who's building a strong and real Church. In this case it's a video game company. Either way these are one in the same.

Wow thanks. This is really great. Well written, and I def learned some stuff. But I have some questions. 1.) I'm a SHADOW tank...are you able to protect more than me? Do guardians start with higher protection? You have both classes so you should know. From your data it seems like that is true. But why? 2.) For some reason...you list 25,000 to 30,000 protection per person? What? Did you mean 2500 to 3000? **I do have to say my biggest challenge is protecting nodes, since it seems like no one else wants to (pug). I could run around and look for better taunt groups...but I would be leaving nodes unprotected here and there. Again thanks for the support!! I really appreciate it!

Wow. Nice. But I'm a shadow tank. Do you guys get more absorb/shield? Is yours maxed out at like 50/60? It would be cool to know your absorb shield rating at this time! Please respind.

I thought about this myself. Since there isn't going to be a test release. They might be using the 1.4 update blog as the "test". We will see.

I completely agree with you and thanks!

lol. Buddy I check my combat logs every match. For my class at least, as a jedi shadow tank in Survival Gear force wave does just as much damage as anything else hitting 2500-3000 damage. You are probably a DPS or a jedi shadow dps and do infact have stronger abilities.

You started your recent statement with a lie. There is no evidence that one side likes Force Wave or Overload more than the other. That's the whole point of the poll. Where do you get your information? I have read every single post and I would say you can tell right away it's about 50/50. From the polls I have done it's about a 50/50 split . Bio Ware would not have as many problems as they do if it was that easy. Most of the debatable topics are what cause problems with any issue ever.

You got it backwards. Now stealthers are going to hide even more. I'm not going to go into big groups any more and use my taunt. Or at least it will be a lot harder for me to do that. I also can't do good AOE damage anymore. I will def be doing a lot more hiding. Remember they come after me second to the healer, because I protect the healer. Now I can't escape so...you won't see me. I have to stay away. Like another poster said..it will makes us even less usefull. I agree.

I appreciate your response but let me makes this very clear. A compromise helps out both sides. It does not help out just one. For games like this to be successful we need to compromise. The reason there are so many answers like that are because it's fair to both parties not just one. It's ok to be bias with the those answers because it's for everybody at once. The only reason I put the one answer (for being completely against) twice is because I knew people would like the answer "if it's broke don't fix it". And I would agree with you that's a mistake I should not have included that. But either way those people would have obviously chosen the similar question. Tell me what choices you would like me to add and I will post a new poll with them in it Thanks *** and this is how it really is... Let me sum up the options: 1- A compromise should be reached where Force Wave can remain as is and have a longer cool down. = "Both parties get something they want" 2- I am not a fan of Force Wave. It's annoying when people do it all the time. I like the new update's restrictions. = "I want Force Wave to be changed" 3- A compromise should be reached where Force Wave still hits surrounding enemies, carries the same animation and does the same damage, but the opponents behind would only get knocked back a smaller amount or not at all. = "Both parties get something they want" 4- Force Wave was never a problem in PvP or PvE. There are countless problems that are far more important!! = "I don't agree with the changes" 5- "If it's not broke don't fix it" = "I don't agree with the changes" 6- "Force Wave should get three charges. After the third charge Force Wave will knock the enemies as far back as possible. Up to 500 meters. Force Wave is awesome." = "This is a joke question and doesn't count. I was trying to be funny." and by the way that's a good thing for those in favor because these people would have obviously chosen something in keeping Force Wave the same. So it actually works in the opposite way in turn helping out answer 2. I should have included one more answer like number 2 to be fair. But I really don't think it would have made a difference. Next time I will be more careful. Thanks for pointing it out!

Two things. 1.) Oh ok. That's a good point. But this comes back to sages/shadows again. I think the ability is better for sages, not for shadows. That is how I look at it. I used to love FIB. But I found I can get more damage and it was easier to just use Slow Time. Now w/ the distance on Force Wave/Overload we can prevent caps (which is what I mostly used FIB for). But there are a couple problems with the new Force Wave. So the thinking behind using Force Wave like this is not going to help our numbers...even for protection. We have to be close to taunt too. a.) This will lower our damage and taunt in many ways. I used to think it was clever to stay far away but overall I felt my damage and protection fall largely....unless your a sage. If you are a sage this will help keep you alive. At least for me my points/ kills etc go through the roof when I'm in a large group. b.) Secondly you will have to prevent the second cap by walking up close to it anyway, So it helps a little but if you are on your way to the turret anyway...and are going to have to be again in a sec..cause they will obviously try to recap it's not that important. Another thing is we could stun and FP before if someone was capping. So being able to prevent a cap with Force Wave is just unnecessary and wasteful. Now that they changed our stun we still have Force Pull. Obviously lower level characters will have no choice but to use this to prevent caps now. Probably why Bio Ware did it...to please the f2p crowd. 2.) To Devionir. I completely agree about the stunned during animation thing. I never, ever had a problem with this once. And if I did good for the opposing player. He deserves a chance to block something, it's only fair. As far as Force Wave and using it in groups. I use it a lot in other situations too..or I used to. But just an FYI you will increase your damage if you do at as much as possible in large groups. I think the amount of people you can hit is at least 5 at once. So 400-600 damage x 5 is just as good as any of your top damage moves. Obviously now our damage will go down in some situations with the nerf.

Again that's unfair. We are the minority. We already have to heal and gaurd on top of everything else. Now this? DPS don't have to do this. If you had to do all this you would understand. I also try to help out my team, between chatting, guarding, and stealthing...this is just too much. Now I have to start spinning? And it's not all about that for me. I liked the animation, and the intensity of it. I also thought it was a lot of fun being in the center of the mob and smashing them away. But whatever if people are annoyed by this then fine. I don't want to annoy people. But I never heard of this being a problem before. This was a total surprise. I see no reason for BW to do this to my toon, on top of everything else. And as far as the skill being more useful that is highly debatable.

Three quick things; 1. I did try to make the poll unbias.I put the compromise first (since it helps out both sides). I put the option for "i don't like Force Wave" second and I put the option for "leave as is" later in the poll. 2. I believe the new Force Wave will help Sage's more then shadows. Sages often play back away from the opponents. They are supposed to play far away, or at least the good ones play that way on my server. For shadows it's debatable, as I often see my numbers go through the roof when I go attack a large group since I'm AOE. So I agree with you when it comes to sages. But in gen the old Force Wave is extremely helpful to both of us at times in both PvE and PvP; 1. For escaping mobs 2. Damage. The damage numbers will go down in some situations because of this. It might go up in others. But in general when I already have to do guard every 20 seconds and the healer has to heal, we will forget to spin more freq. I already have too much on my plate. So my damage will go down because of that. Timing is everything. DPS don't have to worry about all that.... *note spinning around and doing the new Force Wave will not help you escape a mob...uh there will be people behind you no matter what way you spin. 3. Animation delay? Come on. It made the move more exciting. Why don't we just remove all delays? Your lights saber will hit instantly, bullets will hit instantly..when you run you will end up at your objective instantly. Caps will be instant. How about Force Lightening..how about that takes 3000 out of you instantly? Everything will be so instant....that the match will end instantly it's self. Wouldn't the real solution just be to prevent this from being interrupted? Rather then changing the entire ability? Such a bad excuse. I never had a problem with Force Wave having a cool animation. Not once did anyone ever prevent it unfairly that I'm aware of. And if they did...doesn't that only make it more fair for them? Isn't this about balance?

I agree

These two ideas are just great. I would love it if I queued for a WZ and one of them was a race. Or if there was maybe a bonus race after the match for those who wanted to stay and participate. A little extra PvP element like that does wonders. Think of the rage match before a real match on Mortal Kombat. It was just something small an extra but in the arcade it made that game really stand out. Many games do this. Also I think a dueling match would be great, maybe fore the top two players after a match for one min. A random mini game element for one min after each match would really hit things out of the park. You would get one of three; Speeder Race Space Battle Duel That would be so cool. But I like your speeder race idea the most. lol. i never even thought about this before because I have the opposite problem, I never even get warped to where I'm supposed to be (but I think they fixed this just last week). I haven't had enough successful PvE FP's to even get to the end but it's a great point and you can look at it like this... PvP is so successful because it is quick and easy. PvE needs to take notes when it comes to group missions. FP's, Heroic's etc. should warp you right to your group (so for God sakes you don't make 7 people wait 30 min for you to get there..i make people wait all the time because I'm a PvP'r i don't have as many taxi's etc. unlocked and I don't have the whole map unlocked. I'm just trying to be nice and help.) And I agree with you they should also warp you right back to where you were after. That would be amazing! I would PvE so much more!!! In addition we should be able to rewatch the videos. For me that's half the reason it's fun to PvE. I liked to watch the video and know what the heck is going on...so my group doesn't have to explain it. With extra time from warping...I would have time to watch the vid and then some.

I don't get what the problem is. It was fine in the beginning of the game. At first I could wear headgear and have a blindfold no prob. The only prob originally is that my blindfold didn't match anything. That should be an easy fix. Now all hell has broken lose.

Oh no no. Not just because of that. There are more changes to Force Wave than the activation, and I don't mind the activation, I just don't like taking away the animation. It was fun to jump in the air like that. Matter of fact you could do a cool double jump with it, and also I think it helped prevent some attacks. In general it created a more intense experience but the whole ability will be different now. Not just the activation time. But I'm over exaggerating. I wouldn't leave because of that move alone, but the adjustments to my character overall could make me leave. Obviously I would take everything in to account over my whole course of playing the game. Yet I do have to say this update changes my character more than ever before. I hope I'm not being selfish. If Bio Ware changed my abilities because others were annoyed then fine. I just never heard of this being a problem. I mean it wasn't like force lightening used to be. If it was I would at least like to know about the complaints so I don't feel like it came out of the blue. Most importantly I don't understand why they don't make compromises. Why wouldn't you try to make both sides of the conflict happy at once. It's so easy to compromise. For example, make both kinds of Force Wave/Overload usable (the new and old), at least half the players would use the new one out of choice. This would help balance. For those that kept the old one, make the cool down longer, or make it effect those in the rear less. There are many more options where that came from. Sorry, not trying to be a jerk. I just think something isn't right. I stand by my previous post, they need to only fix things by giving, not by taking. I'm starting to feel ripped off. But if they are trying to make everyone happy by making things more fair then fine.

I love the jump part of force wave. It's my fav move and looks awesome. Adding "instant" features is ridiculous. It's highly unrealistic. It's not exciting visually, and doesn't inspire either. All this instant crap is why GW2 PvP is so boring. Everything happens so quick that you can't even tell what's happening, that why people say GW2 is cheap. Sorry I HATE the new force wave and I might leave the game because of it. One reason I like SWTOR is because it didn't have this instantaneous stuff. The game feels real at times. I'm sick of games like Halo and GW2 where I just glide around...everything is instant...it just feels like I'm playing Killer Instinct or Street Fighter without the punch and kick animations. What's the point? I feel attached to Force Wave it was my first AOE ability. I feel like it's part of my character. I'm sick of Bio Ware taking things from me. I paid money. They can't keep redesigning/changing abilities all the time. I said it twice today and I'll say it again. MMO's are failing. There are many reasons. But one of them is that they cant make people pay then take things back. They have taken my face gear, my damage, my abilities, my armor...it just feels like stealing. I pay for this stuff for gods sake. MMO's need to put a policy in place where they only fix problems by giving. There is nothing natural/comfortable/normal about taking things back from customers.

Thanks. You seem like you want to help. I'm not a guardian though. I'm a shadow. Now that you know that what am I doing wrong? I do everything you mentioned, I play 6 matches a day on average and try to get protection up 24/7 and don't seem to be able to get over 100.000 without a healer. I have never hit 200,000. Yet I see the same class get 300,000 on occasion. I hate to say it, but if I don't start hearing something that makes sense. I have to start thinking all of it is cheating. Well I know some of it is, someone told me it is, but they just had a bot healer. Can a bot healer double/triple your protection numbers?

I have gone through like 10 sets of gear in the last 6 months. I just got War Hero. I thought that with War Hero I would finally start to reap the benefits! How would I know before this? If everyone else seems to be so much stronger? As far as a combat log, I know how to read it for damage but not for protection. I'm still learning (i uses act it's hard to understand sometimes). I still deserve a refund. If they can take away/redesign tons of my abilities over a course of 6 months. I should be able to get a refund for badly designed gear.

Thanks for the support. Might try that!

Your right it will be frustrating. One of the common ways to kill someone (especially as a shadow). Is to approach someone from behind. Overall I will be able to damage those of my class more because I have stealth, and I have special abilities for standing behind a character (stab). Now they won't be able to escape. Think about it. It certainly leaves us vulnerable. Now on to what you said about Force Push. That's already in the game but for a different class. Point is the game already has that, and it's cool. So why do we need it? It just makes the game less diverse and more boring. In addition I might feel like I'm missing something. It was my very first AOE move. It's a part of my character and myself. It's like changing Mario's fireball. It's part of him. But I admire Bio Ware's efforts. At least they are trying. I agree with you as well them some things seem like they will help the game. But I still don't get why they don't address the major issues. I don't think any Jedi shadow/sage out there wanted three abilities altered in one shot. That's a lot to deal with. We will have a handicap compared to other classes now...a learning curve. I said it once today, and I will say it again. MMO's NEED TO LEARN TO STOP TAKING THINGS AWAY FROM CUSTOMERS, I FEEL CHEATED. IN A WAY IT"S ALMOST LIKE STEALING. YOU TAKE AWAY MY ABILITIES I'M USED TO, YOU TAKE AWAY COSMETIC LOOKS FROM MY CHARACTER, YOU REDESIGN ABILITIES, YOU TAKE AWAY MY DAMAGE. I FEEL LIKE SWTOR JUST TAKES, AND DOESN'T GIVE. MMO'S NEED TO START PUTTING IN PLACE A POLICY WHERE THEY DON"T REMOVE THINGS. THEY SHOULD ONLY FIX PROBLEMS BY ADDING SOLUTIONS. an example? give people a force push option instead of force wave. obviously a lot of people would use it, this would help balance maybe, but those want the old way could use it as well. GIVE, don't TAKE. It JUST FEELS WRONG.

So they recently have claimed to fix the Miralaku headgear with the latest patch. Problem is the patch just created more problems (now my characters "eye piece" is gone completely). In addition I got redirected on the customer service forum to a prepatch response. Which I can't reply too. I feel very bad for MMO's. They just won't last if they keep doing things like this. A policy needs to be put in place where MMO's don't remove stuff from the game. It's just common sense. The reason consoles are so successful is because they always ADD content. If they want to fix something they ADD it. You can't make someone pay money than; take away abilities, take away clothing, take away damage amounts, and redesign things. That is like stealing. MMO's need to start fixing problems by only giving, not taking away. It just doesn't feel right. It goes against the way things have been since we were kids, especially in video games and even in other walks of life. Please stop stealing from us. And you wonder why there are less subscribers. I'm not trying to be a jerk. But think about it. I just had to get that off my chest. So back to the blindfold... Anyway so first we could wear the "blindfold" with anything, then we couldn't wear hats, and now we can wear hats but have no blindfold? There are three major problems now; 1.We can not color match the blindfold, and have never been able to. 2. Now the blindfold is never there when equipping items. I like the blindfold I chose it in the beg, I deserve to have it on my character. 3. The worst part is the new blindfold replacement. Which is just another Miralaku blindfold option from the character selection at the beg of the game. If I wanted those ugly glasses, I am now forced to wear, I would have chose them when creating my toon. So my toon keeps getting uglier and uglier, I already have trouble finding cool clothing, and my blindfold was never color matchable. So one "blindfold" was replaced with another. It seems cheap and looks ugly. I hope it's a glitch. I'm not sure if it was planned this way or not. Please inform. Thanks!