Xcore
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Oh boy, good luck with this thread... I support the OP here. "Some" instants still don't feel quite instant due to Animation/Sound and Effect Sync to Keypres/Input but good luck with this one...
Inb4....
1) I don't have the issue
2) It's not WoW
3) Adapt
4) l2p
5) Go back to WoW
6) Hardcore vs. Casual
7) Shut up its being fixed
8) Random Bioware praise
9) WoW has/had same issue now/at launch
10) WoW sucks...
etc.
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Except for just about every game that is not an MMO. Street fighter would have been junk if it had applied damage before you even punched or allowed you to roundhouse every second ( GCD ).
No one if arguing game play over animations, or animations over game play. That's "silly*" to say.
Animations, timing, damage and game play should be in sync. /fullstop
The point is in street fighter and any fighting game responsiveness is huge, near complete perfection. When you hit a button it happens... Immediately... there Is no .2 delay. You're not understanding the threadline and arguement. It isnt about the Grenade "immediately" hitting the targer without traveltime...
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People talk like WoW is the only MMO with fluid responsiveness.
In my play through of DDO, I can tell that it has the same fluid responsiveness as WoW...
WoW is not the only but it may be the best, it certainly is the most identifiable as its by far the most popular, using it as primary example makes perfect sense. I have never played DDO for example but I could list EvE Online as being amazingly precise and responsive as well... but it stops there, I had serious issues with any other MMO...
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As noted In the thread, ill post here as well:
Having played last night It felt like a different game completely from the previous night. This was the first time I could enjoy the combat and PvP to a similar degree as in WoW. If I had to estimate the improvement, I would say 60-75% which is incredible.
Both myself and my fiancee noted that we were running out of energy, force, cells faster than before because we were not limited by delay to our ability usage. I think any higher level and more competitive player will notice the big Improvement.
Having said that, there are still issues, most notably with sync of Animation/Sound and Effect to the keypress/input. I can give examples but I am sure you guys know what is meant...
Once again, thank you very much for this Improvement, it is absolutely noticeable and a very big step in the right direction. I hope that this does not mean that you let up on this issue of gameplay and more importantly the "feeling" of complete control and responsiveness of one's Avatar that WoW has done so magically.
Once further progress has been made on the more crucial aspects, I would urge re-visiting the details such as rotations, jumping, strafing etc etc. to perfect this "feeling" that has lead to all of this.
Thanks again Bioware (more specifically the ones Involved in this project)
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Don't know or care about WoW or any other game. Irrelevant to the non-problem of realistic animations of TORs combat.
Not accolades. Just actual results from casual PvP for a week. Proving that decent PvP players like me notice no supposed delay, at least in my class, nor when I bothered asking others in chat, and NO ONE noticed it. (excluding glitches, of course) Cause it's not a delay. It's realistic movements. Thus eliminating yet another one of the b.s. excuses. (remember how you and yours keep shifting the goalpost each time it's passed? Now you gotta make a new one, beyond "well you just don't PvP, so you just don't see it.")
OSIZE="2"]You, pretending anyone who doesn't "see it" simply isn't 'good enough' to see it. When quite a few have no problems, see no problems, and are no doubt better than whatever you supposedly are.
Anyhow, at least you got another bump for this thread, since that seems to be the real motivating factor in most responses in it.
@ Gangbot -- a thoughtful and measured response. I'd never guess you for a 'twitch-based' awareness.
[/size]
WoW matters to this threadline and discussion, if you enjoy being blind and discounting the game with the most responsive and fluid gameplay then that is your choice but you have no place in this thread.
I am not shifting goalposts, if you never noticed an issue with the responsiveness you play slow and imprecise with a low APM ratio. It had nothing to do with casual or hardcore...
You are right, if anyone until last patch didn't notice an issue they simply did not playing fast, precise, good enough to notice. I am sorry but this is reality.
We have had Top100 Raiders (myself Included), multi-gladiators as well as tournament playing professiknal gamers of Quake, CS:S, WoW, LoL, WC:3 (all proven) confirm these issues... Not a single player of these calibers has spoken against this (argued your position), I challenge you to find such individuals who can also prove their status through facebook links and profile matches on their Team/Clan pages.
The improvements made in 1.1.0b have been vast and on behalf of everyone (thousands) of supporters...you are welcome my friend. Please enjoy SW:TOR and its way towards market leader and 10 million subs.
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Here we go again, people arguing about never having noticed any delay etc. which would be fine as long as they could admit to the possibility of simply not playing at a fast/competitive/high enough level to really suffer from it.
Then we have some absolutely ridiculous banter by some deluded, middle aged, wannabe great PvPer about reaction times and reflexes not mattering as much as strategy in PvP... fascinating that he also claims to never have noticed any responsiveness issues with SW:TOR...
Lastly (these i can sympathize with), people arguing that animations are more important than responsive gameplay. Well look, everyone here wants great animations, greater than those in WoW but not at the cost of gameplay.
The fact that you believe animations over gameplay is nice is irrelevant, you should try to understand thay no game and especially no MMO has ever become a success when taking that route of Animations over Gameplay. It is best if Bioware can preserve great animations and match WoWs level of gameplay but if one has to be chosen It must be Gameplay.
Why is it hard to grasp the deeper consequences of choosing animations over gameplay? If you do this you will never be able to match WoWs success... you'll turn the game into a niche just like all the other MMOs have gotten into for many varying reasons.
Even if you "love" animations, it would be in your best interest to favor gameplay because it Immediatly means more subscribers, more money, greater success and more people to compete against and play with...
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I'm not knowledgeable in either sowing or sewing.
Anyhow, no, in this game, being a twitchy thing isn't the most important factor, and doesn't matter as much as knowing your class and it's abilities. That's intentional design.
Many in this thread despise that. Maybe you're one of them.
Anyhow, all I can say is I can dish out damage, kills, and wins most of the time. (and I'm in PUGs, don't use Rakata packs, and obviously don't use hacks, apparently unlike everyone else in WZs) And thankfully, BW won't cave to a simplistic mentality that thinks it should abort all animations and make it all a FPS slobbering twitch-fest.
ps. LOL how you and yours got nothing but ambiguous b.s. elitist insinuations, in place of proof of your own god-like infallibility as humanity's supreme gamers, any time you're called out, ha ha ha!
1) The combat in SW:TOR is based on the exact same design as WoW, reaction time, reflex and APM is just as important as in WoW. Why are you afraid of this? Why are you against this so called "twitch"? Why are you against fast reaction times, reflexes and high APM?
2) Your listed accolades are 100% irrelevant, bragging about what you accomplish in PUG BGs is just about the best way to ruin your credebility towards any high level player.
3) What are you talking about elitism for? What is elitism? What do you mean by proving superior gaming skills?
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Twitch helps, but strategy can play a huge role in PvP as well.
Tricking enemies into burning an interrupt via fake casting, for example...
Of course lol, no-one here would argue that strategy is irrelevant. Look at some top arena play, that is insane amounts of strategy, akin to a chess match...
Twitch, in the form of reflex,reaction time, APM is necessary and a huge factor.... Players at higher levels of these qualities also are far more sensitive to this discussion.
For me, PvP until today's patch was highly frustrating and I'd say 90% unplayable, 100% un-enjoyable. Tonight It was not only payable but also enjoyable... However, having said that there will be players at far higher levels of play than me, who still notice this and In fact still perceive it as un-playable.
I daresay a SC2 pro would find it unplayable (apples/oranges withstanding)
The delay is not 100% resolved, perhaps almost there. I stress that the overall feeling of Avatar Responsiveness and Control is actually still further away as it also deals with Animation/Sound/UI Sync and more...
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Rofl, mods sure cleaned through the past two pages... but in any case:
"Twitch" certainly does make one better as it is simply: reflex/reaction time and mental agility/cognition.
Once again, I'll invoke my example of Starcraft 2 and the extreme levels of APM.... (by which many are judged).
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You know, one big thing I've noticed is that I am running out of energy easier and my fiancee noted that she is running out of power cells faster too because of the delay missing now, things are happening much faster... more abilities, more resource usage.
This down the line, may lead to tweaking of resources (regen or ability requirements).
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You know, I think part of the reason that I am not seeing this issue is my choice of characters. My main is a Gunnery spec Commando and my primary alt is a Merc with the imp version of that spec. I have no positional attacks, no off-the-GCD reactive attacks, no interrupts aside from my knockback... I just stand still and spam charged attacks (Grav Round / Tracer Missile) and toss in a Rail Shot or Full Auto from time to time and use AoEs whenever things are clumped and I can risk the aggro. Perhaps "run and gun" style characters feel the delays a lot more... certainly anyone who relies on positionals would in PvP since giving a human target even a quarter second to move would make those harder to pull off, but I've seen very few positional attacks in this game and I don't have an alt yet that uses one.
My Fiancee plays Gunnery Commando right now and she did notice it still (huge improvement she says now) but you're right, she said it was much less noticeable on the Gunnery Commando than her Consular Sage for example...
It has also been established that certain classes do showcase it better but all suffer from it...
Again, the issue today is greatly improved... shes very happy
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I wonder how many of those who claim to experience the ability delay have been whipped in PvP by those who apparently aren't "good enough" to notice it?
Yeah, animations and cool-downs don't match. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'
Yeah, sometimes (extremely rarely for me) moves can get glitched. Obviously that should be tweaked and 'fixed.'
Ability delay? Meh, never noticed it, even while leading kills in PvP over everyone and burning down pretty much anyone in front of me. Probably including folks in this thread. But don't worry. There's always an excuse.
They won't be happy till all realistic animations are destroyed, every click=instant damage, and all you need is to be hopped up on goofballs to "be good."
(don't forget to respond, so as to artificially increase the thread view count and make it seem like everyone has this supposed 'problem')
Actually in the system with lack of response (before this last patch) it levelled the playing field "a lot" between the best players and the average players.
The less responsiveness and precision avatar control you have, the less distinction you can have between "Bad, Average, Good and Great". My point is that in a system like "WoW" the SkillCap is much higher than in "Warhammer Online" or "SW:TOR".
Sorry to say, but advocating this Ability Delay/Avatar Responsiveness Fix is actually going to do nothing but increase the Skill Cap of the game and thus lead to more competitive play. Which along the lines will lead to the "best" truly standing out further than in an un-responsive system which only frustrates the better players because its so slow.
I don't think anyone here advocates breaking any pretty animations. However, responsive gameplay should always trump cosmetics and animations. Gameplay should always trump "anything" in a game where "action" is forefront, from SuperMario through Tetris to WoW and SW:TOR...
Now, "The Sims" does not need to be super responsive... the priorities there can be somewhere else...
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Xcore, I have been following this thread since the very first post. I think everyone appreciates what you have done here, you have an uncanny was of articulating things.
That being said, I was a multiglad (6 seasons) and raided in a top 25 world guild (Overrated, Korgath - the horde version of the guild Death and Taxes). This delay made the game unplayable for me. I came on today and I must say that many people in this thread are not giving them enough credit for how drastic this improvement is.
The actual DELAY is feeling about 90% better for me. I have been able to vanish instantly all but ONE time in about four hours of WZ's.
The animation problems, however, have not been addressed, nor has Bioware said they have been addressed, and I think people are lacking the intuition to realize the difference between the DELAY that was fixed today and the obvious and glaring problems with animations that has absolutely nothing to do with today's fix.
In fact, the entire game feels more fluid. When I click on an interractable object it works instantly, I do not have to wait half a second for me to interract with an object on the ground.
The next step for them is to fix the animations. The most glaring problem (as discussed) is twofold.
1. Animations are not matching cast times
2. Abilities that have conditionals (for example, "behind target" for backstab/maul or snipe which requires you to be in cover) needs to have their check from client to server on keypress, not in the middle of the animation. This is the reason why backstab does not work when you hit the ability if your enemy faces you immediately, or why sniping immediately after goign into cover doesnt work. The client and the server do not communicate until you are actually in cover or until right before you extend your arm for the stab.
Again, thanks for all the hard work on this.
Thank you, this is exactly the kind of opinion we need and I appreciate the kind words. I agree completely when I said the scope of the "improvement" is quite great...
And also yes, Animation/Sound and Effect sync to keypress and UI input such as Cast Timer etc are things that still need tweaking but I believe these to be easier...
Bioware, needs to really listen to players like yourself... multi-glad/your raiding exp is big...
Edit: I will add your post here to OP as well later tonight... tyvm again...
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I'll make you deal. You stop advocating verbal violence and I'll sit back and enjoy the ride
Either way, be well.
I don't think I've ever advocated verbal violence...
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This statement is simply incorrect. At level 49, Marauder, I have never once seen an ability-delay. Many many people, in fact most people, do not seem to be affected. I PvP alot. Never once have I pressed a button and it not fire.
This is my problem with your post. It's the same problem I had when you were saying it was inherent to the game engine and therefore could never be fixed. You assume things you know nothing about then state it as a fact. Your opinion is NOT a fact. I do not doubt that you experienced an issue, but NOT everyone had this issue. Your problem was NOT everyone's problem. The issue that some people had was NOT inherent to the game engine as you once stated many times.
SWTOR certaintly did not fail.
I thought we went over it, not everyone is able or has the capability of noticing this... its based on the level at which you play as a person.
I thought throughout this threadline if anything has been accomplished it is the distinction that higher level play brings this forth more noticeably.
How can you say Bioware did not fail in this department? it is so obvious, look at the massive fixing that is being done here? Look at the speed of which it is being fixed, within 3 weeks they've rolled out major fixes to this problem, this means that they've hauled *** on this issue internally.
Yes, Bioware has failed with SW:TOR to deliver responsive, crips and smooth gameplay that is on par with the market leader and game that has mastered it the best, "WoW". It is now being fixed and addressed.
All I can really say to you, you're welcome.... even in your blissful ignorance, if it makes you happy to hate this thread, me (because of how I am or how I express myself or for whatever other reason), or any other criticism towards Bioware that is ok I guess. I hope that you have a good time and even if you don't consciously notice the effect this entire thing has on you, perhaps subconsciously you will and then you'll praise Bioware (naturally) but the point is if the resolution of this issue enhances your gameplay in any way, I feel like we've accomplished something good either way.
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Sorry boss, I never saw your video and comparing a single player console game like Mario Brothers to a Client Server based MMO is the height of Apples and Oranges. Don't get me wrong. I much prefer the current level of responsiveness, but ignorance is bliss and a fallacy isn't ever anything else.
When I look at the middle east, harsh criticism hasn't changed anything. What changed some things is the willingness to shed blood. The problem lies in the fact that blood shed may change things, but rarely for the best in the long run. Violence begets violence.
Now say that education and information changes things and I'lll agree. Like a video that specifically portrays a problem that allows a developer to see an issue first hand. This allows them to duplicate and fix it.
Being offensive just makes one a jerk, it helps nothing. It never has. Now, don't get me wrong. Lots of folks make the mistake of confusing niceness with weakness, but even then being 'offensive' or 'rude' isn't the right way. Gandhi and King would certainly disagree with you.
I'm glad you enjoy the gameplay fixes... I don't know what else to say to you... perhaps if you let us continue with this threadline you will enjoy the further tightening of gameplay responsiveness and avatar control.
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Just wanted to say that you must have a lot of patience Xcore. I don't think I would have taken the amount of time you have to compile the information and the videos. Let alone put up with people arguing with you to the point of distraction from the issue at hand.
Thanks, and thanks to those that helped in giving their feedback, videos, and input.
The game is better for it.
This is the most difficult part... over 7 threads now of someone coming in claiming:
1) There is no problem
2) l2p noob or go back to WoW
3) WoW had same issues at launch
4) Set it to 0.0
5) Its intended
6) General Bioware Fanboism, Bioware can do no wrong (Some variation of this...)
So yes, perhaps posts such as the above don't bring out the best in me anymore but thats a small price to pay to continue driving this issue and effectively help Bioware on an issue that I am (and it appears many others) quite passionate about.
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Sir, I respectfully suggest that harsh criticism is not good criticism unless it is constructive. Being constructive while being harsh is good constructive criticism, but being harsh without being constructive is the lowest form of useful criticism. I haven't really been reading all this (well, I was back at the first incarnation of this thread, maybe the second too I don't remember), so I can't say as to whether or not you are being constructive. Just that "a mix between the two is needed" is only (I believe) correct when you're being harsh AND constructive -- but being harsh without being constructive is no where near as beneficial.
Well, that is why I say a mix between the two, I would hope that I have been constructive... in my harsh ways... lol
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I watched it over and over, and every ability appeared to begin animating pretty much the instant the GCD ended. If there was a delay it was too brief for me to notice (and if it was only 0.1 - 0.2 seconds or so I would not be able to notice it). If you are talking about a delay between when an ability begins animating and when it "kicks in" then I would consider that perfectly normal and acceptable (thanks to 7 years of playing a MMO where every power has such delays as a matter of game design), and if you are referring to a delay between when you click the power and when it starts to activate then it was too short for me to notice on a video. But then I'm horrible at twitch gaming... one reason I like RPGs (and by extent MMORPGs) is that twitch skills are not generally needed and, in my opinion, should no more give you an advantage in MMO PvP than great driving skills in a shooter (not counting if you are piloting a vehicle of course).
Its very difficult to define and elaborate, especially difficult to explain to someone who does not have it. It is a "feeling" sadly, I am afraid that the best way to have this "feeling" is to have played WoW at some decently higher levels.
I am not saying the game must be like WoW in every way, I don't think anyone wants to play WoW. However, WoW has done something magical with how it "feels" to play... it "feels" very good in combat and in Character Control. More so than absolutely any other MMO ever has.
The higher level (faster, more precise, higher APM etc.) you play, the more noticeable this "feeling" is. I realize this isn't something everyone wants to admit to but, the better players have a better sense for this and ability to understand. Even if you do not, it is in fact very much real...
Here is the real sad part of the story, something so difficult to not only explain and define or tell someone, is obviously super difficult to really replicate or match. That is why no other MMO has really ever been a threat to WoW, no matter how much content, graphics, sound, story or "features" they have... after a few months, everyone returns to WoW (the much dreaded exodus) because it "feels" better, and no-one can really explain what this "feeling" really is...
Some say the other MMO felt sluggish, weird, slow, my character moved as if he had a "stick" in his *** etc. etc. Because no-one really articulated it well enough, MMO Developers always continued to believe the problem with player retention was "Features", "Content", "Graphics", "Too hard to play" etc. etc. when in reality it is all "a feeling".
Blizzard has become what it is simply based on this enigmatic feeling... the next MMO or company that can give you this level of Avatar Responsiveness will be HUGE, because 50%+ of the entire WoW Population likely is looking for that MMO... when it happens, it'll be amazing.
If it doesn't happen, I guarantee you that the Titan Project by Blizzard will have the same "feeling"... they know what they've done... and they're not going to direct too much attention to it because once the secret, the key is out... the MMO Genre will explode (hopefully) with proper titles to play that all feel as amazing as WoW.
You may ask, "Why does this feeling matter if only the top 10-20% of players really feel it?"
Well, they only really understand it and can even articulate it... but its so intricate and so deep within your neural stimulation that everyone from the super Casual 2h per day player to the 18 hour per day super hardcore player do feel it, some consciously (like many in this thread) some subconsciously (like you would probably, if you were forced to get into WoW for a few months).
If you can play WoW for 1 year and then go to any other MMO and say "WoW isn't special, it feels the same as X MMO", then I truly believe you to actually be in the minority.
0.1 - 0.5 second delays aren't necessarily "seen" while playing... they are "felt".
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Funny how important PvP folks consider themselves to be. I never have understood how small a market share believes that their wishes is what makes a game successful. It is truly 'funny' considering that every game that has gone too far into the 'hardcore' PvP MMO market fails miserably.
There is never an excuse for 'harsh' criticism. Criticism should always be constructive. When it isn't, it is easy to dismiss. Sooner or later the whip loses it's sting.
I disagree, and you don't appear to understand what you quoted me saying.
I never advocated a "PvP Game" where your corpse gets looted if you die... where you lose XP if you die... where you must master 200 different combo styles to succeed... I have no idea what you're trying to say with your reply to me.
I am not a PvPer... where did you get that from? I even state in my video, "PvP is not my strong suit". Please next time, get your facts together.
I would also like to say, that Avatar Responsiveness is not up for debate since Mario Games. It has to be perfect or as close to perfection as possible... no "If, but, when, how" about it. Its obvious SW:TOR failed in this department and it is being correctly addressed now.
Harsh criticism is very much needed at times, whether you like it or not... the entire middle east has changed due to harsh criticism. Constructive criticism is preferred of course. However, a mix between the two is needed for maximum effect... if you do not understand these realities, I am sorry.
I like to think that I have been constructive as well as harsh... hopefully at times blatantly offensive...
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I assume you tried doing it out of combat on empty ground. It's one of those things that you just can't understand how their code works. The behavior is different in combat. And it affects all channeled abilities afaik. Try it out, have fun.
What happens when you do it in a Warzone? Is the first tick/ticks delayed? or where is the issue? Please explain, I'm seriously interested in this...
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After playing an hour or so last night and a couple hours today, I am becoming more and more sure that the supposed "fix" is nothing more than a placebo, and we are all falling for it. Combat feels exactly the same to me (marauder). In fact, I'm only writing this post because I just had that one situation happen where you activate an ability and your character winds up and then stops and nothing happens while GCD activates. Wasn't even in pvp, was out in pve doing a class quest. As far as I am concerned at this point, I don't think anything was fixed and bioware is yankin our chain to try and quell the masses a bit.
I honestly cannot say I've had issues like this (on smuggler) or issues that I've had last night, I'm having more "cosmetic" issues of Animation and Sound sync and yes, I still experience the slight delay on certain chains of abilities but it is absolutely minor in contrast to last night (and everything previous)...
This has to be some serious placebo effect because I am not an optimist or pessimist by nature, simply realist... and I mean, I'm being highly critical of the game, I have no reason to state these things unless I am convinced of the truth.
Also I should state, it is entirely possible that if you are still experiencing higher levels (or same as previous) of delay and responsiveness issue you "may" in fact simply have a lower tolerance for this than even I do.
You may be a bit more precise, skilled, fast etc player than me... like I said, we need more opinions from Top100 Players, Gladiators, Professional Gamers etc who are more critical.
I think of myself as a decent measuring stick to feeling this responsiveness but I must admit that there are people far better than me who must be much more finely attuned to this feeling than me... please share, best you can do is Video Footage.
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Xcore, since you play a smuggler, try chaining your ground aoe ability. Try and make a 2nd one start casting soon as the 1st one ends. Much like a mage would chaincast blizzard in WoW for example. How can you claim that this is even remotely playable right now?
I can't do it because the ability cannot be cast until the first is done channeling completely...
1) Channel Ground AOE
2) at any point in the channel attempt to re-channel same ability
3) "Not Yet Ready" Error Message
4) Fail
However, yes it is remotely playable, you know why? because the above issue (if this is what you're getting and referring to) is "seemingly" easily fixable (if they want to - and I believe they should)...
I honestly am not too worried about this one, unless I missed something and you're getting a delay somewhere else?
I tried AOE -> Cover and got no delay, I tried AOE (while in cover) -> Instant Ability "X"... no delay etc.
The only delay I'm getting is the "Cover Pulse" Animation which SUCKS... but again, seemingly easy fix really of re-sync.
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Xcore, since you play a smuggler, try chaining your ground aoe ability. Try and make a 2nd one start casting soon as the 1st one ends. Much like a mage would chaincast blizzard in WoW for example. How can you claim that this is even remotely playable right now?
Will do, give me a few minutes...
Totalbiscuit - Interview - Gabe Amantangelo
in General Discussion
Posted
Very predictable interview... I expected more, this is much like an interview by GameSpot, IGN or mmorpg.com, basically no substance for anyone who isn't a complete novice to MMO Gaming.
Does not address any crucial issues or ask any tough questions but simply follows a script of favorable questions for pre-determined answers.
Very lame... I was under the impression totalbiscuit was a decent player who understood the "higher level" aspects and would ask questions accordingly.