Payneintherear
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Posts posted by Payneintherear
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Burst doesn't matter? So dropping targets quickly doesn't matter? This ain't PvE bro.
It's not? 'Cause judging by the ignorance around here, it may as well be.
Saying burst automatically results in killing targets quickly is so shortsighted as saying the formula 1 car with the highest max speed will win a race.
Burst is nothing mystical, it's the ability to deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time. But it's still damage and if it is interrupted (and trust me classes with higher burst are usually the ones who have to duck out of combat more often, because they are squishy), it's just damage over a period of time, that can be dealt with easily.
Once you keep the damage of these burst classes in check, you are more likely to outlast them, as they will die faster than non-burst classes as part of the balance equation.
I have never seen high-end pvp, where the match was decided by killing the opposing team quicker than having your own killed.
Why do you think healing has been regarded as overpowered? If kills happened as quickly as people seem to believe, healing wouldn't even matter. What makes healing overpowered is the fact that burst damage can be neutralized long enough to allow healers to outheal the sustained damage over time.
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So... when both sides have good heals and tanks what kills people if not burst damagers assisting on targets??
If burst damage isn't meaningful in competetive PvP, as you say, then what kind of damage is? Make your side of the argument.
It's sustained damage coupled with CC that allows you to outlast the opponent. That's what wins.
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The vid was never intended for '****imsoleet' gameplay, but more to show some fun footage of how a hybrid operative plays... I probably would've keybinded a few more things before recording, and excluded clips where I let my teammates die, if that was the case.
The clips I had of 1v1's against fully min/maxed chars looked rather bland to me, and that's not really what the game is about.
I am curious at this point. Are the shadows in your video the best on the server?
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Operative hybrid won't be killing a healer solo. Ever.
You can put dots on as many people as you want and call it "damage" but burst is all that matters in competetive pvp.
I don't know what makes people repeat the above over and over and believe it too. Anybody who has any reasonable amount of PvP experience knows that the more competitive PvP becomes, the less burst damage means. Ask yourself, do fights last shorter in organized, competitive PvP than in PUG or do they last infinitely longer?
If burst damage was more meaningful and prevalent in competitive PvP, fights would last way less, but the opposite is true, because burst can be countered by organized groups.
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I keep reading about how skilled players will make any class shine, but...where exactly do you see above average gameplay in that footage?
And I am not claiming the guy can't do better as he seems to say so himself, but given the video and the fact that he's pretty much "tanking" everybody, I'd say the kind of instant healing the AC can put out is probably too good.
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Why do you Spinning Kick him after you fill his resolve bar?
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FiB without Mental scarring doesn't hit that hard....
Yes, it does. With Mental Scarring it will hit for 5k.
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If you intend to play Infiltration as a burst dps AC, Clairvoyant Strike is a bad choice.
The highest burst build for Infiltration is the 0/30/11 where you pick up Force in Balance. While your burst is a little lower over 2 GCDs, it's much higher and more reliable over 3 GCDs.
Use Project, Force Breach and FiB for maximum effect. Not only will you be deadly, because after the big Project/FB, you have FiB coming up with a 30m range that they can't escape from, but you also have much more reliable burst, because 2of the 3 GCDs deal internal damage.
FiBs also hit in the 3.5-4k range, which is more than what a 30% buff to Project + an extra CS will add.
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You were contending that Kinetic had higher single target sustained damage than Infiltration. That's not true, even with the hybrid build, even if more damage got squeaked out of it. It does do good damage for a tank spec and is strong in PvP, but higher sustained single target damage is not something that can be honestly said for it.
Since I practically suggested the spec and requested a parse for it, I am pretty sure I know which build I was talking about. Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree on 27 points in the Kinetic tree being a hybrid spec or not (imo it's not, as it's picking up all the damage capabilities Kinetic has to offer and you then branch out to pick up more damage, because frankly you can with Kinetic's tree but not the others).
Anyway, for now I will have to accept that the Kinetic dps build is parsing lower than the Infiltration build, despite the anomalies of the tests and the big variation in duration for both comparisons. Once 1.2goes live, I will present my own numbers for both these specs.
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Arrrgghhh!
Desperate for 1.2 now lol. Too lazy to download PTS client plus wouldn't have character copy either. Really curious to see what sort of damage I can pump out as both infiltration and full KC (31/10).
I wont bother with 27/14 "hybrid" as honestly, its a terrible spec. You are trading out a ton of survivability and utility (namely self healing and AoE snare) for a measely increase in damage. Also, as pointed out, the damage decrease for full KC comes simply from using TK self heal. In a raid situation, if u are in DPS gear then you aren't expecting to get hit (often) and thus won't be using TK every time you reach 3 HS, thus DPS will be much much closer to the "hybrid" spec anyways. Same applies to pvp. If you aren't getting hit, you're DPS will be just as high in 31/10 as 27/14, but when you are getting hit, you have self-healing which will benefit you more.
You still have self healing with 27 points in Kinetic. You can still use Telekinetic Throw for dps purposes, even if you do not get hit. That's what the 27/x/x spec does. Now I give you that the 31-point spec can get 3 stacks of HD up faster, but Slow Time has a 8s CD still.
Either way, im the 27 point spec was underperforming in the test (comparing the crit amount of the 27 Kinetic spec and the Infiltration spec, we notice that a) Infiltration was mighty lucky on crit chance b) the Kinetic spec had less than a 100% crit chance, which tells us he used it outside of PA, which would seem to be a dps loss give the steep cost of a non-crit Project compared to another Double Strike)
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uninterpretable self heal
This is awesome and so much better than uninterruptable.
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They could just make FiB require Force Tehnique to be usable, and bai bai hybrid KC/balance spec. Simple as that.
Not sure if you noticed, but FiB was not even used for the parse. This "hybrid" label is also very misleading. 27/(0/1/2)/(14/13/12) builds are not hybrid specs. They are Kinetic DPS specs (picking the maximum amount of damage from the Kinetic tree and branching out for extra damage instead of picking up the utility on top of the Kinetic tree).
You can only do that to this extent with Kinetic (major flaw), because Infiltration at the very least requires you to pick up Deep Impact, which makes branching out for extra damage impossible.
PS: none will pick fib over slow time as a main KC tree user for rated anyway, slow time is invaluable, being able to snare more than half of enemy team to give time to your team to get to a turret or door or run ball etc, compared to moderate 3 target damage every 15s (without 30% surge bonus from deep balance as well).This is a very biased opinion. Kinetic's AE-snare is in no way needed, let alone unique. There are classes with a much better AE-snare in this game.
For me personally, slow time is most used ability in any premade pvp situation, is simply put best spell in KC tree in a pvp situation. Lowest force cost, aoe, snare. Now only if they would move containment to tier 1 or 2 in balance
You pick a Guardian instead of a Shadow and what you get is a spammable AE-snare, an AE-mezz, guardian leap with a 20% damage reduction on the target and a lot more goodies. The only thing a KC has going for them is the damage really (which in my honest opinion is not too high for the lack of specialized defense of the AC, but rather Infiltration (especially given the lowest survivability of the three) and Balance being too low))
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I have a pretty good handle on all the mechanics, force efficiencies, etc. I was just trying to give a quick illustration on why Infiltration comes out better on sustained damage without getting bogged down into details that can't be quantified in a concrete manner without getting into deep into using tools like simcraft or something.
Although, the guy made it pretty easy to get to a bottom line over in the parse thread.
1357 for Infiltration, 1099 for Kinetic.
Being more than 20% under isn't close...and certainly not better. (Would have to increase Kinetic by ~23% to catch up.) For a PvP spec with solid survivability, it is a good trade-off, but it is a considerable drop in sustained damage and even bigger drop in burst capability with Infiltration's ability to chain 3-4 big hitters end to end.
Please take another look at the parses in the thread.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=385688
The 27/0/14 Kinetic build parsed 1208 DPS and I am not sure if it can't be improved. (Looking at the parse there are 1 out of 3 Projects that are used outside of Particle Acceleration. Doing this will lower overall DPS, because Project only becomes bearable in terms of damage per force, if it crits).
Also, I believe Force Potency was not used in this test? Force Potency is really good for Kinetic's sustained damage, as it will affect every single tick of a Telekinetic Throw for a single charge and add 50% crit damage to Project.
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The answer to all this class dmg myth crap is in 1.2. How about anyone complaining about DPS go check the parser information posted in the PTS forums. Assassins are not in the top DPS list at all. I believe we sit in the 1,600 ballpark compared to Mara/Merc/Sorc that are sitting pretty in the 1,900 ballpark.
Mind providing a link to the parses?
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What is "crushed" in the balance parse? Different from Mind Crush, it appears.
The DoT portion of Mind Crush.
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As long as Infiltration has no hard hitting filler and is heavily relying on Force Potency to be threatening, it will never be viable.
Refining my suggestions over the weeks, I have come to the conclusion that dps-wise what needs to happen is the following:
- Shadow Strike lowered to 25 Energy base
- Find Weakness proc (change name to Find Opening) now has no internal CD and allows you to use Shadow Strike from all sides (armor penetration part removed)
This would need to require Shadow or Force Technique to be active to proc.
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When you can do 15k DMG in a matter of 4 global cooldowns, then your argument of "kinetic has close to the same burst as infiltration" will have some validity.
Are you referring to me? What is this? Some kind of joke? No such claim about burst damage has been made. Read posts, think, then hit reply. (For reference 15k damage in 4 globals is absolutely possible for Kinetic, though Infiltration will potentially do 15k in 3 globals, so that Kinetic is definitely not on par with Infiltration when it comes to burst, but make no mistake, it's not a huge difference).
And by reading your patterns of semi arrogant posts in this thread, I'm sure you'll come up with another 20 paragraphs arguing your point.Every single post in this thread where I have said that Kinetic will rival (in fact I believe it will surpass) the other two specs has had me explicitly state that I am talking about sustained single target DPS.
The fact that kinetic has the best survivability/dps ratio is valid, but you'll never come close to the amount of burst a smart infiltration shadow can put out.(and notice I said burst, not overall dmg)
Yeah, I noticed how you turned this into a different argument.
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All those kiddies running around with DPS gear w/ KC have another thing coming in ranked wzs. Good luck killing anyone with half a brain in real matches.
This comment makes me think of a spoiled brat, who desperately wants to separate itself from the rest of the crowd. Fact is that as much as anybody playing a Shadow hates it, KC always outperforms Infiltration and Balance.
Anybody who thinks that slightly, very slightly higher burst of Infiltration will mean squat when teams are actually organized has never played a PvP game before. Whenever skill caps are raised, whenever the game becomes more sophisticated, burst is the first thing to lose power, because it can be countered.
Sustained damage, durability and control win in high-end PvP and KC beats both other specs in each of these categories by a mile.
If you actually wanted to imply that KC specs are going to have to wear "tank gear" for rated, I have to laugh at that too, because that's exactly what KC is not made for (and why I have been saying that Shadow in general are not the best choice for rated as they do not excel in anything). KC has no defensive CDs that increase the value of every point of extra health exponentially. KC has no AoE mezz or way to avoid damage outside of Resilience and thus any investment in defensive traits, especially in light of how they actually affect PvP, is a waste.
The most valuable Shadow you can play in rated is a Kinetic that focuses heavily on damage, while guarding dps and taunting off the opposition going for your healers, so that you can move back and take out the over extenders with your guardee.
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How do you get to that conclusion?
Seriously, though...Kinetic is not where near Infiltration's sustained single target dps.
Project is Kinetic's hardest hitting ability. Infiltration has an extra +15% damage through talents beyond what Kinetic has with it, in addition to it costing much, much less force. Force Breach hits nearly as hard for Infiltration while being a low damage ability mostly used for debuff for Kinetic. Infiltrations technique procs do much more damage. Infiltration has another big hitter with low cost from consuming Find Weakness procs. Infiltration's weapon damage attacks don't suffer from -10% melee bonus. Clairvoyant Strike has +5% damage over Double Strike, even before the -10% melee bonus. And on and on... Infiltration's abilities hit harder and at higher force efficiencies pretty much across the board.
Kinetic does good damage for a tank spec, but it really doesn't keep up with any legit dps spec for any class for single target damage.
I don't know where to start, but I'll try to explain where you are absolutely mistaken:
1. I am talking sustained damage, making it completely irrelevant what abilities hit the hardest for the respective spec, since none of the abilities can be sustained
2. Project may hit harder for Infiltration, but this comes at the cost of 2 GCDs dedicated to increasing Project's damage. You also absolutely ignore the fact that Kinetic doesn't have a hard CD of 6s on Project (this obviously is less important when looking at sustained dps, but Infiltration spec has barely enough regen to cast 1 Project every 6s once their 110 force are gone (6*8= 48 and Project costs 45), while Kinetic will regenerate 62.4 force in the same 6s, allowing for 1.6 casts of Project solely off of the regen
You also have to account for the way higher crit chance for Project that Kinetic has compared to Infiltration
The 15% extra damage on Project would be increasing the damage of sustained Projects by more than than the 50% crit damage bonus from Infiltration does (assuming a tooltip damage of 1500 sans respective talents and 75% surge for both, we are looking at ~3.1k crits vs. 3.4k crits in favor of infiltration. Infiltration specs will not exceed more than a 30% crit chance on Project in a sustained model (that's including Force Potency, since most Infiltration builds that have 1500 TT damage on their Project will be at <25% crit chance self buffed)
Anyway, as you can see Project is a really bad deal for Infiltration, unless we spend force and time (absolutely terrible issues for the spec) on making Project bearable). For Kinetic the ability is not superb, but given the automatic crits, the building of harnessed darkness charges and the flat 15% damage bonus sans requirement, it is well within the parameters for a "passable ability"
3. Double Strike for Kinetic is significantly more damage per point of force than Clairvoyant Strike could ever hope to be. This is huge. Kinetic has a 23 point DS and a 50% crit damage modifier on top of a 6% higher damage on the ability itself. Infiltration has, at most. the 6% damage boost from Applied Force
4. Telekinetic Throw is an incredibly efficient tool in terms of damage. Nothing that Infiltration has can even come close to it. Given how Force Potency effects this ability, you can turn this into a monster ability for Kinetic's sustained damage model (to give you an approximate figure, we are going to look at 8kish damage without adrenals (with war hero gear, a little lower with BM gear) for a cost of -1.2 force (that's right, you actually gain 1.2 force in the time you do the damage))
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Can you please elaborate a bit about that spec - can yo show any talent calculators for it and the rotation? I've only been playing as infiltration and balance so far as I'm dedicated dps and don't do pvp. It might take a while for me to get this data for you because I want to train playing it first.
Fortunately Kinetic is the easiest spec to play on top of it all, so that you basically won't need much in order to do "well enough" for my test. Your basic priority queue should look like this:
http://knotor.com/skills#AgobAA4qQUlRWmpzgYmqsrvK0duJkZqrusvS - 27/0/14 Kinetic Shadow
- Spinning Strike on CD
- Double Strike until you proc Particle Acceleration
- Project under Particle Acceleration only
- Telekinetic Throw with Harnessed Darkness x3
When Force Potency is up, use it when you get 3 charges of Harnessed Darkness, so that you have a 60% higher crit chance on each of the 4 ticks of Telekinetic Throw for one charge of FP and follow it up with a Project (but only with PA up) in order to get the crit damage bonus for your second charge of FP.
Force in Balance is optional and should either not be used at all or right after Spinning Strike depending on the kinetic mitigation values of the test-dummy.
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Hell jugs were so screwed that our version of the sin excute required 20% instead of 30%. What was the logic in that?
Maybe, just maybe, you should compare the range on both abilities.
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What can I say...this is an awesome thread and thanks for all the work man.
Since I have been arguing for a while that Kinetic's sustained dps is as high if not higher than Infiltration's I would like you to parse a few fights with a 27/0/14 spec to prove my "theory".
Thanks in advance.
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I would like to know why that opponent never caught onto the fact that you did 2/3 of your total damage within the first 5 seconds and then the las 1/3 of your damage over the course of 15+ seconds and acted upon it.
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I am assuming the increase to Project's base damage has to affect different ranks of the ability, which is why we see multiple ranks of Shadow's Training. Just because it seems like you have been using the same Project for the last 50 levels doesn't mean it is true.
Abilities have ranks and you train and subsequently use a "new" ability, which seems to replace the old one but in reality doesn't.
At least that's how I understand the whole mechanic.
you thought tank sins were op? you havn't seen operative hybrid in action
in PvP
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It's pointless to even have a discussion on competitive PvP with somebody like you. For you burst equals damage and anything that is not burst means having no damage. You have absolutely no idea about pressure damage, windows of opportunity and CC, which are key elements used in PvP.
You will never drop a guarded target with burst alone when you deal 29% of your maximum damage for 12+ seconds. Whatever your experience may be in this game, it's diluted by facing unorganized opposition that can be bursted down by 2 dps classes using 3 GCDs each.
When you have an answer as to why fights last longer in competitive game-play compared to PUG considering that "burst is king" and "targets die within 1 or 2 heals", let me know. Until then, you'll look like a newcomer to me.