8m Titan 6 Bijje - Sniper - Marksman - 36/8/2 - 2684 Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/380560/6/0/Damage+Dealt Edit: KD Relic and belt; all else 72s.

If you aren't intending to optimize your rotation, then go Rage. Vengeance suffers horribly with sub-optimal ability selection, whereas Rage has a bit more room for error (as well as a much easier rotation to learn in the first place).

I've already provided my input on the questions to both class reps. They can choose to take that and use it to develop the PvE question from it, or they can not. Since I have provided both with my opinion on what the question should be centered around, my involvement in the actual process is over. Now is the time for me to be "off-topic" by discussing guardians on the guardian forums.

I don't even really need to see the ideal setup change. I just want something that makes us more than Marauder-lite. This can be any number of things, honestly, but I just saw the Alacrity idea and pointed out what it could provide. Do I think it's the best option? No, probably not. But I do like the idea. We have some nifty tools already, but nothing that really stands out as all that impressive in a group setting. I get where you are coming from, and because of those issues, I agree that other methods of achieving this would be easier/better than giving us some kind of raid-wide buff. Most obviously, adjustments to Vigilance/Vengeance to allow more consistency would be a good place to start. Taking a bit of the random factor out of that spec would allow us to better determine where the class truly falls within the scope of DPS classes.

We have nothing to offer a raid group, as a class (DPS). Certain players can perform at an equal level to other classes, but there is currently zero reason to take a Jugg/Guardian on a raid, unless you have a lazy Slinger, no Commando, and no Guardian tank. As a class, our numbers alone don't justify our position in a raid group, since there are multiple classes that can meet or exceed while having more utility or an easier time achieving those numbers (or both). And if the Class Rep Q&A is an indication of things to come, once Sentinels and Marauders can build stacks during Bloodthirst/Predation, that 2nd melee spot that we are able to fill should be getting replaced by a 2nd Sentinel (though an Operative/Scoundrel is already a better pick than a Guardian/Jugg for that spot), assuming we don't get something to make us desirable to a raid group. *To be clear, we are currently viable for all content in the game. By taking a Guardian DPS, the group is making a conscious decision to give up some utility and/or DPS potential in that slot, unless you have a player that performs on the Guardian better than the available alternatives, but then we are discussing players and not classes..

To return to a conversation from a few days ago, a group wide Alacrity buff would not be wasted on our own class, as someone had stated. Rage/Focus would see a noticable gain from an Alacrity buff due to V.Slash spamming (zero CD), which in turn reduces downtime between smashes. During the Enrage/Combat Focus portion of the rotation, and depending, of course, on the amount of Alacrity, we would likely be able to cut out one entire global before the next Smash. This, in turn, would push our next Force Crush back, but it would still fall within the optimal window so as not to waste a global waiting for that third stack before Smash. As far as usefulness for Veng/Vig, it would be ideal for the start of a fight when all of our abilities are available, then those mid-fight phases where we see a Shatter/PB > Impale/OS > Scream/BS > Ravage/MS alignment. I could see it messing with a Marksman Sniper's rotation if they aren't prepared for it, as well as possibly an Anni Marauder (not sure here, since I've only played Carnage, and admittedly don't have the best grasp on Anni), but many of the other DPS classes use zero CD rotations that would require only a little adjustment to account for internal lockouts on procs.

Make the other two bleeds do in the realm of 500-600 per tick, and make the third tick on Ravage apply a Deathfield/Weakening Blast type of debuff, and I'm fine with leaving Ravage at 30 seconds. Just make sure that Rampage sill refunds Rage.

Orbital Strike on all 3 targets to begin the pull...

I wish I'd paid more attention to the tanking topics then... I wouldn't have bothered to learn the click relic for our tanks. Thanks.

Has it been confirmed that the Absorb proc and Defense proc are considered different types and now work in conjunction? They are both 20 second defensive procs, and don't seem to me to be different types of relics. It just seems like it is the same as using an Energy damage proc relic in conjunction with an Internal damage proc relic. (I get that one is procced off of a successfully shielded attack, while the other is off any attack, and that would be the one caveat for them working together that I can see)

It is 100% true. It's just a different truth than what you are trying to point out.

16m Dash'Roode Lift Juggernaut 0/10/36 Rage 3063 http://www.torparse.com/a/341235/2/0/Overview

That would make title run kind of hard, no?

First, a DPS Guardian/Juggernaut is not a tank. They are a DPS class, just like a Carnage Marauder is a DPS class. Saying that we should be substandard because of a spec option that we are not using is a horrible idea, and if it were applied in this game, every single raid group would/should run 1 Marauder and 3 Snipers (or 2:8/3:7) (which is already the "ideal" makeup in current endgame, anyways.) In this game, we have the option of being a tank or a damage dealer at any given time; not both. Second: Focus is very minimally behind Vigilance in single-target currently, and in AoE/mechanically-adverse fights far surpasses what Vigilance can do. *Hopefully the emphasis is apparent, but just in case it was missed, we are a tank or DPS, not a tank and DPS, and as such references to tanking have no place in a conversation about our role as a damage dealer.

It's been quite some time, so maybe I'm misremembering, but did not Immortal used to have a talent to reduce rage cost and GCD of the AoE snare? I seem to recall it being just spammed non-stop in Huttball matches back in the day.

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

Just throwing something out there that those of y'all that PvP can shoot down... Why not incorporate Retaliation into the Vengeance mix? Give it some sort of utility in Vengeance - another bleed, chance to proc Destroyer, whatever. Right now, it's just an attack off of the GCD, which is nice, but given its expense, I would think it would be a good place to add on something. Obviously it would be of minimal consequence us PvEers, since we only see Retaliation in specific circumstances

Just did some quick eyelid math on it, and a 3 second reduction per Impale/Shatter would give us a 15 second effective cooldown on Ravage, which would put it right at the average seconds per use of the highest Jugg parses. Add in the increased crit, and we are looking at a much more stable, stronger spec. Assuming, of course, that we still get the Rage refund on the revamped Rampage proc. Any thought of removing that proc will completely gut the spec. *Disclaimer: My math may be slightly off, meaning +- 3 seconds on the effective CD of Ravage.

Hydraulic - 2936.8 - 4/36/6 Vigilance Guardian http://www.torparse.com/a/367275/time/1375516960/1375517280/0/Overview Replaces Lift on the list. Edited because links help.

So a zero cooldown, weapon damage Smash with no 5-target cap?

Ignore the PM I sent you... I see it, and I'd gotten away from doing it. With lag killing the last tick without any help from me, I didn't want to push it, but I'm having no issues with the Guardian on it, so I'm working on getting the timing down.

I assume this must be a PvP spec, because it is horrible for PvE (and really doesn't look that good for PvP, either, though I'm far from the expert in that regard). Heh, you know me by now. If it's not specified, I default to PvE.

Getting a better feel for the Guardian's animations/procs/etc. Hydraulic - 2966 - 4/36/6 Vigilance Edit: I just looked at your parse closer Loufucai... How the hell are you pulling 37 APM? I don't reel like I'm bad with lag, and I'm certainly solid on ability selection, but I just can't reach even 36 consistently.

Select Few's were PDT time zone.

I apologize in advance for any... rambling or unclear thoughts. I'm not quite on top of things right now given some personal events that have taken place over the last 24 hours. I'm still getting caught up on the conversation... It really should go without saying that any changes with DPS need to start with an examination of Enraged Defense. With PTs getting their threat dump, there is no reason for ours to remain this rediculous mashup of want-to-be defensive cooldown, rage eater, and threat dump. Don't get me wrong, the Veng version is amazing, hampered only by the Rage cost. The problem for PvE, is you have to hold it for the defensive cooldown. if you have to use it as a threat dump you are essentially wasting its defensive advantages. Split the ability apart and give us PvE Juggs that still pull threat on occasion a reasonable threat dump and redesign the other half of the ability to provide a good defensive cooldown for DPS Juggs (while finding a way to not give Immortal yet another great tool). How to achieve that, I don't rightly know at this juncture.